newbie needs help on antenna selection

IDRick

Hi Steve,

Congrats on the new antenna! Looking forward to hearing how it works for you!

I had noticed that Summit Source advertises "free" 50 ft cable with all their antenna sales. They don't mention specs and now I see why.... Solid core copper RG-6 cable is preferred for new installations. I would buy new cable.

Best,

Rick

jdemaris

At 50 feet, it's not going to matter much - but RG59 is just about the cheapest coax used for TV. When using it on high UHF channels, it will have twice to three times the signal loss as RG6 - and the difference in cost is just a few dollars. I doubt any reputable installer would ever install RG59.
To do so is just throwing signal away. At 50 feet, on high UHF, RG6 can lose around 3 dB. RG59 will lose over 7 dB. On VHF, RG59 can lose 2.5dB and RG6 around 1.5 dB.

If I lived where you are, I'd install a good preamp with a built-in gain control. It will make a huge difference for some of the more distant channels. But, it all depends how many channels you want to receive.

I've camped many times in the your area and get over half a dozen channels just using a 2 foot long, amplified RV antenna on a 20' mast.

You could probably get over 20 channels (and more sub-channels) with a good antenna and preamp.

jdemaris

No doubt that RG59 is greatly inferior to RG6 or RG11.

But, from what I've read on test specs, the copper-clad core in RG6 transmits signals just as well or better then solid copper core for TV frequencies because the signals tend to ride on the OD of the center-conductor. There's a name for that effect which I forget at the moment. Note the higher loss with the solid copper.


For example:
Coleman 92049 RG6 pure copper 18 AWG loss at 100 feet:
VHF high - 3.1 dB UHF high - 6.2 dB

Coleman 92041 RG6 copper clad steel 18 AWG loss at 100 feet:
VHF high - 2 dB UHF high - 5.9 dB

myselfnjit

so is popular belief that I should get diff cable for the install? If so what kind?

IDRick

IMO, you should switch. I use solid copper core from Home Depot (Carroll is the manufacturer, ~$18/100 ft). You'll get lots of different recommendations on which cable to buy...

jdemaris

It depends on your specific situation. Digital TV is "all or nothing" when it comes to a picture on your television screen. If you live in strong signal area, it may make no difference at all between a hi-loss cable and a low-loss cable. From your antenna on to your TV, every cable, diplexer/splitter, joiner, etc. will create some signal loss. Just depends on how much loss it takes to make a difference at your TV.

My attitude is usually to use the best available (within reason). With coax - there's little difference in price between RG59 and RG6 - and subsequently I cannot think of a reason to use RG59 anywhere - unless you've already got the cable for free - or a smaller wire OD is a factor.

jdemaris

What Carol part # of solid-copper RG6 from Carol are you finding?

I often buy 500 foot reels of RG6 from Home Depot in New York and Michigan. It's all General Cable "Carol" brand and all has copper-clad steel, not solid copper. The Home Depot stores I go to carry RG6 from Carol with Quad Shield, or not.

In Carol's own catalog, they don't recommend any RG6 with solid copper for broadband TV (analog or digital) because it has more loss then copper-clad steel. They only recommend solid copper for lower-frequency closed-circuit TV.

That's has me wondering why any Home Depot would carry solid-copper unless they are in an area that does a lot of closed-circuit TV work.

I attached files showing all the coax that Carol recommends for broadband TV (all copper clad).

Attached Images

	Carol chart.jpg (37.8 KB, 9 views)
	General Carol cable.jpg (33.7 KB, 7 views)
	Carol digital.jpg (30.6 KB, 7 views)

tube69

Skin effect. Read about it HERE.

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NonMcTubber

While I agree that virtually any type of RG-6 is preferable over RG-59 for a new install, it gets a little more complex in the case of an existing install.

In my case, I bought a house that had an existing TV antenna with a rather long run of RG-59. The first 30 feet of RG-59 would be very difficult for me to replace but it terminates at a signal split point in my basement. And there it was joined to another 75 foot run of RG-59
that would be easy to replace that goes to my living room television.

I later went to the 30 foot RG-59 terminus, added a splitter, and ran 50 feet of RG-6 as I hooked up a dining room TV in addition to the the living room TV. The point being, with highly similar Tuners on both TV's, digital channel scans found the dining room TV with its shorter and superior co-ax cable getting more channels than the living room TV.

I then added a distribution amp ahead of the splitter in my basement, and then both the living room and dining room televisions equalized as both got more channels and an exactly equal number of channels. I could easily and cheaply replace the indoor 75 feet of RG-59, but why bother?

In our OP's case with a new install, its probably better to simply get RG-6 with both ends having connectors and thus also avoid the expense of a cable crimper tool and the possibility of a bad splice.

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High definition is not the definition of my life.
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myselfnjit

well i installed the antenna today.
I had to use three sections of R59 cable that I had, probably not the best idea but it was all I had for the test run.

I get 3 wskg stations (pbs) 2 diff channel 40's and one channel 12.

The pbs stations seem to stall and stutter a lot though.

I plan on getting one run of 100 feet of rg6 cable to replace what I have and an amp. Is there anything else I can do besides get a bigger antenna?

I am hoping to get channel 34 in and fix the stuttering on the pbs stations.

IDRick

Thanks for reporting back!

Some suggestions:

1) verify that you are aiming in the correct direction (109 degrees with a compass). You can also use tvfool to check your aim. Use the tv map function and put the pointer where the antenna is located. Check the box to show direction to the broadcast towers. I like the tv map function because you can see landmarks to help in adjusting aim up on the roof.

2) Check your connections. You can lose signal strength if there are loose connections.

3) Check different antenna heights on your mast. Adjusting the antenna up or down can significantly change reception.

4) How did you mount your antenna? Did you check other locations on your roof? Are there nearby trees between the antenna and the broadcast towers? There may be better reception locations on your roof... In my case, signal strengths are 12 dB's higher on the north end of the house versus the south end. This equates to 16% higher signal strength on my tv's tuner.

5) Switching your cable to a single run of rg-6 is a good idea and will give you a small boost in signal (lower loss/100 ft with rg-6 and you eliminate small insertion losses where you joined cables).

6) A pre-amp will reduce the 6-dB loss due to 100 ft of cable. Is there just one tv or are there splitters and additional cable in your set up? Based on the strong signals in your area, I would recommend a Winegard HDP269 pre-amp.

HTH,

Rick

NonMcTubber

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By saying you get 3 PBS stations and 2 different channel 40's, I assume you are talking multicasts which would show up as 40-1
and 40-2 as an example. The point being some stations offer two or more multicasts and others offer only one. The point being if you get one given channels multicats, you tend to get them all.

Beyond that, I have to be puzzled on why you do not get channel 34,
which is predicted to be your second strongest station and easily within the capability of a winegard 7694P. So I have to wonder if you are aiming your antenna through a nearby tree or if something is blocking line of sight. So maybe some other antenna location might be better.

And if your UHF PBS is "stalling and stuttering", aka pixelating, its a symptom that you are very near the digital cliff. And there I would tend to predict, just the act of replacing the the three separate lengths
of RG-59 with one run of RG-6 would by itself be enough to lift the PBS well over the digital cliff. And given the fact you do not get that channel 34 leads me to believe one of more of your RG-59 cables are defective in some way. And a preamp would also greatly improve signal strength at your television tuner.

But your your point of diminishing returns may be in getting that low power NBC channel. And if I were in your boat, I would first replace the RG-59 and add a good low noise preamp and see where you are then. After that, a much more expensive antenna is likely to offer not much more benefits by itself.

__________________
High definition is not the definition of my life.
But knowledge is power and HD does have some potential to increase content variety and choices.

aka.Hooper

In your case it was probably pennies difference between a new 75' piece of RG-6 with conn's vs the small dist amp - and you had to do virtually no work. So as you say, why bother...

Agreed!

Also as Rick points out in point #5, each and every connector has a SWR mismatch to the ideal 75ohm impedance of the cable, thus reflecting (and essentially stealing) a little signal from you - and this will happen no matter how good you installed the connectors!

And since you are ever so close to getting a clean lock I would say to change out the signal robbing RG-59 and the extra connections caused by several pieces of cable with one continuous run of RG-6 first and see if that does it for you before you spend any real money.

You can always resort to the amp later if still necessary.

Just my

__________________
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http://mysite.verizon.net/res11d41p/

jdemaris

You're never going to know what is really available to you unless you hook up a $30 preamp and then do a channel scan at multiple compass points. I'd do a scan at every 20 degrees, all the way around at least once and keep notes for future reference. As I mentioned earlier, I've gotten many channels when camping in Owego with just a 2' long amplified antenna. Granted, I may of been in a better spot than you are. Did you do your TV Fool by address or GPS coordinates?

I realize that Owego is flatter than my area in New York, but with forests and even moderate hills a signal can snake around and arrive at your antenna way off from that the line-of-sight to the tranmitter is. In my situation - near Cooperstown - I get absolutely nothing without a preamp and that is when hooking the TV directly at the antenna site. With a preamp I get over a dozen main channels and over 30 subchannels. So, in my case, having the amp is a night-and-day difference. Even my big Winegard HD8200 will not get even one single channel with no amp hooked. Neither will my Wade VIP-307.
I'll add that if I'd gone by suggested compass points alone from TV Fool, I'd missed half my channels. That's what happens when there are mountains between the antenna and the transmitter, along with woods and valleys. Signals snake around.

Your report looks like at least three stations ought to be virtual flame-throwers with no amp needed, but that depends much on exactly where you are and what is around you to block signals.

jdemaris

If he's on the digital cliff now with all the leaves off the trees, he'll be a lot further off that cliff come spring and summer. So, something that just barely "does the trick" now is likely to result in no picture on the screen once things green up again. I agree the spliced RG59 cable should be replaced. I also have figured from his first post that a preamp would be a good idea. And, there could be some other simple issue going on here we don't know about. A properly spliced RG59 cable in itself in a 50 run isn't going to be the problem.

A preamp can make an antenna getting zero channels get many channels. But when it comes to preamps and claims about low-noise and gain, I'm not a firm believer in the big advantage of lowest-noise that comes with higher cost. At all three of my extreme-fringe antenna sites, I've swapped in many different preamps - same time, same place, same antennas, VHF and UHF. I've tried the Channel Master CM7777 at $50-$60 each, Winegard AP-8275 at $35-$45 each, AntennaCraft 10G212 at $27 each, and the ultra-low noise British preamp made by Research Communications model # 9262 that cost a little over $100 US dollars with shipping from overseas. Note that the Antennacraft 10G212 for $27 is also sold by Radio Shack stores for over $70
(what a rip-off).

Tried these amps with with following antennas:
Winegard HD8200 UHF/VHF combo, Wade VIP-307 VHF hi-low, DB8 UHF only, XG91 UHF (ganged pair), Winegard 9032 UHF (single and ganged and stacked pair), Antennacraft Y-10-7-13 highband VHF, and
Winegard YA-1026 low-band VHF. I ran these tests at home in central rural New York, in the northern Adirondack mountains in New York, Tug Hill Plateau in northern New York, and in northern Michigan near the Canadian border.

I have not observed any remarkable difference in reception as it relates to advertised noise levels. For my poor channels that sometimes pixelate and drop out - they were the same with all the amps I've mentioned. CM-7777 has dual inputs that can save a person the $4 cost of a VHF/UHF combiner. The cheapest Antennacraft 10G212 preamps have an indoors FM trap switch and also a variable gain-control which is a nice feature that none of the higher priced amps have. Subsequently, they seem to be a pretty good deal.

Maybe some lower-noise amps make a difference with certain TV tuners - I don't know. I've got a new Sansui 19" LCD digital, an older Syntax Brillian Olevia 42" LCD digial, and several old TVs with Magnavox or Coship digital converters. So, at least with them,
these amps worked pretty much the same.

Amp specs for what I tried:

Channel Master 7777 is VHF 23 dB and UHF 26 dB, noise 2.8 and 2 dB

Winegard AP-8275 amp is: VHF 29 dB and UHF 28 dB, noise 2.9 and 2.8 dB

Antennacraft 10G212 (also sold by Radioshack) Adjustable gain up to 30dB VHF/UHF
Noise Figure: <4.0dB VHF, <3.5dB UHF

Research Communications (Great Britian) # 9262, 23 dB gain UHF with .6 noise.

Note that my most problematic channels are 29 and 50 on UHF. The Antennacraft amp with 3.5 dB noise worked just as well for me as the Research Communications amp with 6/10ths of a dB of noise. I found that a little dissapointing. I can buy four or five of the
Atennacraft amps for the price of that one Research Communications amp.
For every test, I checked at the antenna sites first with a digital TV and its built-in signal meter. That's before any long wire runs and line-amps.