Stuck in my Urban Valley

Packeteers

If you put 6799+yellowstone,+11375 into google maps you can see from the Satellite photo how these building are layed out. Yellowstone is actually an old riverbed, thus it's at the lowest level in this area. There are not any glass and steel building around to reliably get bounced signals off

I'm less than 9 miles away from all the transmitters within a 15° arc from each other to my location. However I'm stuck in a small valley surrounded by 7 story wood&brick coops that are higher than my roof. so basically, my own 7 story roof antenna pole is lower than the basement of coops just 100 yards away. I don't want to pay the cable monopoly $70/month for DTV, and I need to replace my old 20 year old VHF roof antenna with something that will work with those new $40 rebate eligible DTV Tuners they'll be selling around town next Month for $60

I was going to get one of those square pan multiple bay antennas, but I worry I won't be able to get 2cbs,4nbc,5fox,7abc so I need something that's also good with the lower VHF range for DTV reception. I really do not want to get another massive aerial antenna as many have recommended here on HDF, since this valley area funnels a lot of wind during a storm, and bothering my building manager to get up on the roof is an embarrassing pain, so I really want to get something I can install once and forget about

I have quad-insulated RG6U going from my apartment to the roof 75' away, so I currently have to use a 24db or 36db signal booster regardless. I have searched around to read about other peoples situations, but I thought my close proximity urban jungle setting justified it's own thread. my ambition is get the as many channels as strongly as possible for my soon to be purchased Zenith DTT900 ASTC Tuner with Composite analog outputs

my reception data: i25DOTtinypicDOTcom/svkh92DOTpng

tigerbangs

OK, if I read your post correctly, you want to pick up ATSC signals, but don't want a big antenna. Have you TRIED a UHF antenna? Can you pick up WPXN, channel 31?

At the distance you are from the stations, you are going to get multipath, but you should still get strong signals. You need a highly directional antenna to combat the multipath, but also remember that WABC, WPIX and WNET are going back to their VHF channels after the analog cutoff next year. It would appear that you are going to need a VHF-high-band yagi and a directional UHF yagi antenna to do the job. Try the following: a Winegard YA-1713 for the VHF channels, and an AntennasDirect XG-43 for the UHF stations. Combine them with a VHF-UHF joiner, and, for god's sake, replace your coax cable with fresh cable and lose the crappy amplifier: If you need an amplifier 7 miles from the signal, there is something wrong with your antenna, cable or both. One of the nice things about an AntennasDirect XG-43 is that it can be aimed up to 25 degrees above the horizon, which is very helpful when having to overcome tall obstacles between the transmitter and the receiving site.
http://www.antennasdirect.com/
http://www.winegard.com/
http://www.pctinternational.com/chan...stallation.pdf

__________________
Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

Packeteers

tigerbangs, thanks for the replay. I notice you try to answer almost every naive newbie who shows up here

let me apologize for my ignorance... the lower VHF in NYC in fact will be moved to UHF, so as you pointed out, it's channel 7 and above I have to worry about, not 2,4,5. UHF reception has always been dim using my old antenna, so analog channels 21,25,31,41,47,50, 68 have always been touch and go, but my upper VHF channel 9, 11, and 13 have been great, while 7 can be a problem as it comes from a different tower.

so a directional UHF antenna would combat the multipath I may be suffering being so close to the transmitter yet obstructed by many buildings... interesting. so I guess that means I can't use one of those flat square multi-pan UHF antennas, because they aquire signal from too broad an arc?

I'm surprised you are so anti-amplifier. I've needed the 24db amp I bought from Radio Shack even back when my RG6U and antenna was a new install - supposedly to overcome the cable length. I'm on the 2nd floor of a 7 story building, so the cable run is in the 70-90' range. I might cut off and recrimp a new set of coax connectors, but the cable shows no signs of weather deterioration, so I can't see any reason to replace it unless you can convince me it's a mitigating factor. The reason I used expensive UV protected weather resistant quad-insulated RG6U was because years ago we had a lot of pirate radio use in livery cabs that my old cable would actually pick up, but since those hacks all use cell phones now, it's less of an issue.

I'm too new on HDF to provide links, so could you take a look at ebaY item 150216880506 or 130198956636 which appear similar to the XG-43 but includes an Amp and Rotor for a lot less money, and is only about 2'x1'x1' in size. Does the physical structure of the XG-43 that will give me that 25° vertical tolerance to the horizon, and the directionality I need? or is there something special about the XG-43 itself that can't be easially duplicated by those similarly shaped ebaY antenna. I don't expect you to know for sure, as I've notice on these threads an aversion to ebaY's "Chinese" crap antenna, but I had to ask. all antenna's look like crappy aluminum rods and plates to me

I'm hoping whatever VHF capabilities those ebaY antenna offer, it may save me from having to buy a second YA-1713 type antenna as you suggested.

tigerbangs

Forget those eBay antennas: no one I know has any experience with them, and most of them depend on a cheap amplifier to provide most of their gain. Directional antennas are the ticket to minimizing multipath issues because they can suppress the signals that arrive at the sides and rear of the antennas that give you the 'ghosting' that you see on analog signals. Multipath interference manifests itself as macro-blocking and dropouts in digital reception when in a strong signal area. Yes, you need a directional antenna, and directional antennas also provide the extra gain often needed in weak signal areas.

Under normal circumstances, 90' of cable wouldn't have sufficient attenuation to cause much signal loss, but if you really think that you need a preamplifier, the old Radio Shack amplifiers have unacceptably high noise thresholds that can actually thwart digital reception. A good low-noise preamplifier that has high input (strong signal) capability is the Winegard HDP-269. You might consider buying one if you find that you have unacceptably weak signals, but remember that digital tuners need much less signal to deliver a perfect picture than analog tuners do, and I question whether an antenna installation like the one that I suggested to you would need that much gain when properly installed and aimed. If your present antenna is VHF only, you cannot expect it to give you anything more than vestigial UHF reception: a dedicated UHF antenna will give you FAR better signal quality than you are receiving now.

The AntennasDirect XG-43 has a built-in tilt mechanism that allows easy tilting of the antenna. The mechanism is built right into the mounting bracket of the antenna, so no additional parts are needed. That feature is a boon when you are confronted with hills or tall buildings that block reception.

__________________
Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

Packeteers

I see your point. so built in amps may actually hide an inefficient antenna design. Thanks for being so patience as I bumble my way through these issues.

Since my channel sources are within a 15° horizontal arc, I assume then a rotor is not needed despite the directionality of antenna I seek?

forgive me for repeating an earlier question;
Does the physical structure of the XG-43 give me ... the directionality I need? or is there something special about the XG-43 itself that can't be easily duplicated by similarly shaped antenna.

so the tilt mechanism in the XG-43 allows me to point it within 25% of the horizon, but how much tilt do I use? do I point just above the artificial horizon above the tops of nearby buildings that are in the line of sight to nearby transmission towers?

so is it the anchor like shape of the XG-43 that makes it directional, or something else I'm not aware of? which part of that shape is more UHF, and which part is more upper-VHF specific? I assume the back is more UHF while the foreword protruding mast is more VHF.

Thank you for pointing out the low/high noise issues on Amps. I was only looking at the gain, but thanks to you I now know better. is the amp built into the Winegard SS-2000 such a low noise model? I know that's not directional enough for my home, but I may use that model over at my Uncles more suburban 11691 home, but I will save that discussion for another day

Packeteers

tiger, should i go with your original recommendation of combining a directional VHF and a directional UHF antenna, does that mean I need to buy a UHF / VHF Antenna Combiner and wire and mount it on the common antenna mast? and will this still be fine should I need to add a 24-36db gain low noise amplifier down before the tuner?

tigerbangs

You CAN mount a UHF and VHF antenna on the same mast without an issue: you can use a coaxial UHF-VHF combiner to connect the two antennas: Winegard makes a good one: I believe that the part is CS-7750. I think that you have absolutely the wrong idea about an amplifier: the Winegard HDP-269 is only 12 DB gain, but it will more than suffice in your situation.

__________________
Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

Packeteers

thanks again tiger. I will definitely save any amp purchase for last.
first I'm going to buy the $60 ATSC converter box once my $40
rebate coupon shows up. then I'll hook it to my existing antenna
without an amp, and see how bad my situation is. then I will pursue
the antenna upgrade using your guidance, and hopefully prove that
an amp is no longer needed for my strong multipath environment.

Packeteers

since you are so loyal to Winegard, I took advantage of their;
http://www.winegarddirect.com/recommend/
custom recommendation system, and they told me to get;
http://www.winegarddirect.com/p/?p=ANWGS1100
so what do you think about this new fangled device,
and why do you suppose they went this way? is this just
a boiler plate response, or something we didn't consider?
I was actually surprised they didn't recommend this;
http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=ANWGHST
which is described as metropolitan for multipath environments.
I suppose I'm too close to the signal towers for that one.

====================================

Zip Code 11375
Do you want HDTV? No
Do you want HDTV only? No
Will your antenna be inside or outside? Outside
Are there mounting restrictions? No
If inside, do you want it in your attic? No
If Attic - What type of material is your roof made out of?
If Attic - About how much room do you have in your attic to spin an antenna? Not enough room to spin antenna
Do you have a chimney? No
Do you know where you would like to mount the antenna? Yes
If so where? existing standard pole & bracket mounted on rooftop brick face
Do you already have an antenna? Yes
If so, why do you want a different one? ATSC converter box tuner reception (for over the air DTV to composite SVHS output) may want HDTV tuning ability in the far future when equipment is more affordable.
Type of building: 3+ Stories Buidling
Surrounding area: Valley
Does the antenna system need to be incorporated into a DirecTV or Dish system? No
Is a multiswitch going to be used with the outdoor antenna? No
If yes, are you familiar with a Diplexer? No
Do your neighbors have antennas?
If so, can you describe them?
Anything we need to know about terrain, other obstructions and/or reflection sources? 8 miles from signal source, but in a valley surrounded by 25% taller buildings, so lots of multi path concerns.
Any other information we should know before we design a system for you? Ive been advised to get 2 antenna, a Directional UHF and point it up, just above the roof of nearby building, then get a separate VHF for 7-13 and join them together using a antenna joiner. I might also need a low noise 24db amp, since my cable run is over 90'.

tigerbangs

Absolutely NOT! That antenna has no multipath-fighting ability at all! That was clearly a boiler-plate response, without regard to your specific situation. As for your suggestion that you don't want HDTV, that may be true, but you DO want DTV! If you don't have the ATSC converter box yet, and still want to watch Channels 2,4, and 5, then you should have a good all-channel antenna like a Winegard HD7082P or a Wade-Delhi VU-935SR, which will give you the signal that you need to get those low-band channels, otherwise, my recommendation stands.

__________________
Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

Packeteers

Thanks Tiger, I figured it was boiler plate nonsense.
some pool slob bought one on newegg, who sounds
like he has the same close distance as me and hates it;
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16882172008
people reviewing the amplified GS2200 are not any happier,
although most of them foolishly applied it to a rural setting.

what do you have to say about the Winegard HD7210P
for my situation? I'm simply too close to the signal source?

Should I still need an amp, I'm thinking of the Winegard AP8833.

tigerbangs

The Winegard HD7210 is not likely to help you much with those low-band VHF channels like 2,4, and 5. It's expensive enough that I would stick with my suggestion on the HD7082P, which is a far more powerful antenna. Don't even consider an preamplifier until you try the new antenna and determine if you need it. A proper antenna should solve your problems all by itself. If you insist on a preamplifier, I think that you ought to stick with a high-input model like a HDP-269 because of the potential for preamplifier overload in your location.

__________________
Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

Packeteers

what if I plan the antenna only after I install a new $60 DTV to Composite converter box? then 2,4,5 will be on UHF, so I'll only need 7 VHF and above for high-band VHF DTV support. It just seems the HD7210 is marketed as a smaller single antenna solution for my problems (high-band VHF, UHF, Multipath, close to signal source) wouldn't you agree?

what made me nervous about the HDP-269 amp was how it's marketed specifically for the squareshooter, not just any antenna. first you taught me to consider for noise db ratings, but where did the preamplifier overload issue come from?

tigerbangs

Until you get an ATSC converter, channels 2,4, and 5 remain where they are. If yo feel that you have no need for them, then you are MUCH better off with the combination of the AntennasDirect XG-43 and the Winegard YA-1713 than you will ever be with the HD7210. The HD7210 is an antenna for specific situations, and, in your case, that situation really doesn't apply. While it's true that the HDP-269 is used with the SquareShooter, it's real value is it's combination of low noise and high input capability. Being as close to the transmitters as you are, you will need high-input capability when you use any high-gain, directional antenna system. Trust me: nothing I am telling you is new: this stuff has been around for YEARS!

__________________
Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

Packeteers

OK, I see the YA1713, but not the XG43. only there's a 42XG.
http://www.antennasdirect.com/42XG_t...n_antenna.html

can you find me a directional UHF equivalent over here on;
http://www.summitsource.com/
since they have the Winegard YA-1713, CC-7870, HDP-269
so I can buy reasonably priced and shipped from one vendor.