Build a VHF/UHF TV antenna?

jvadas · 01-13-2008, 12:21 AM

Just started to receive OTA hdtv. I built the 'cloths hanger' antenna and placed it in my attic and works fine for my 4 local (Youngstown OHIO). I was wondering if anyone knew if I could build a VHF/UHF antenna to reach out to catch the Cleveland stations(My local FOX station is not HD). I went to antennaweb.org and they stated that I needed a violet antenna. The furthest station is 41.1 miles away. All of the stations have just about the same compass orientation, so I would not need to move this antenna.

Also, I notice on antennaweb.org that WJW channel 8 is a VHF station, but WJW-DT channel 8.1 is UHF. Then on the other hand, WKYC channel 3 and WKYC-DT channel 3.1 are both listed as VHF. What is the difference? Could someone explain that to me? I know that I am idiot when it comes to this. I have lived with cable to way too long! Thanks in advance for taking the time to help me out.

tube69 · 01-13-2008, 11:36 AM

What is your zip code? I live nearby in Salem.

In February of 2009, WJW-DT will move from channel 31 to their current analog channel (8). WKYC-DT will move from channel 2 to channel 17. WOIO-DT will stay on channel 10. You'll need a setup that is capable of receiving high band VHF channels and UHF channels.

BrianO · 01-13-2008, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jvadas

Also, I notice on antennaweb.org that WJW channel 8 is a VHF station, but WJW-DT channel 8.1 is UHF. Then on the other hand, WKYC channel 3 and WKYC-DT channel 3.1 are both listed as VHF. What is the difference? Could someone explain that to me?

Stations that are broadcasting both analogue and digtal programs have to use 2 channels to do so (one for analogue and one for digital) because they cannot broadcast both analogue and digital on the same physical RF (radio frequency) channel. However, they can broadcast multiple digital progams simultaneously on one physical RF channel. That's where digital broadcasting's virtual channel numbering scheme comes into play.

A Virual channel number is really nothing more than a name tag rather than an indicator of what physical RF channel is being used for the broadcast. A virtual channel number has the form M.n where M is the major channel number and n is a sub-channel. The major channel number does not necessarily agree with the actual physical RF channel being used for the broadcast. In fact, by a 2004 FCC mandate, the major channel number in a station's digital virtual channel numbers must agree with the physical channel number used by that station for its analogue broadcasts. This rule was passed so that viewers would not have to remember two unrelated channel numbers for the same station.

For example, WJW broadcasts its analogue programs on VHF channel 8 but broadcasts its digital programs on UHF channel 31. To conform with the FCC rules, WJW uses 8.1, 8.2, etc. as the virtual channel numbers for its digital broadcasts, despite the fact that channel 8 is VHF and the broadcasts are actually on a UHF channel. The relationship between a virtual channel number and the physical RF channel that it is being broadcast on is contained in the data stream accompanying the broadcasts. When you run your tuner's channel scan, the tuner stores the relationship between the virtual channels and the frequencies being used in its internal channel table. After the scan has been run, you can tune into the broadcasts directly by keying the virtual channel number into your remote. The tuner will then automatically tune into the correct frequency. The viewer doesn't even have to know what the actual physical RF channel is.

If you look at the list of stations that antennaweb.org generates for your location you can see the actual RF channel being used for each station in the list is ahown in the rightmost column. For WJW it lists 8.1 as the (virtual) channel number, the fact that a UHF antenna is required and in the rightmost coluimn indicates that the actual RF channel is UHF channel 31.

As for WKYC, it broadcasts its analogue programs on VHF channel 3 and its digital programs on VHF channel 2. That's why it indicates that a VHF antenna is needed for WKYC-DT.

Note that the information on antennaweb.org is for the current channel assignments. Some of those digital assignments will change in 2009 after the analogue transmitters will be turned off. Some stations will move their digital transmissions to the channel they are currently using for analogue, some will stay on their current digital channels and some will simply move to another channel. Tube69 has listed changes for your area in his post.

jvadas · 01-13-2008, 03:35 PM

My zip is 44444

jvadas · 01-13-2008, 04:31 PM

Thanks for all the info.

The next question is does anyone know when the local Fox (Channel 62 or WKBNDT-2) will be going hd? I had time Warner cable and it was HD there, but not over the air? So am I safe in saying that I am receiving a digital signal? I am using a Directv box h20-700 and the FOX station is listed as WKBNDT-2. All of my local over the air signals are pegged at 77%. I read in other threads that 77% will be the best I will get cause of a software bug.

So in needing to have both a VHF & UHF antenna, are there any plan out there that I can use to build one?

tube69 · 01-14-2008, 07:55 PM

My guess is that you've built a 4-bay UHF antenna. You might want to consider building an open (no screen or foil reflector) 8-bay antenna. It may or may not work for all of the Cleveland channels. If you were to draw a line on a map between the Youngstown and Cleveland transmitters, you'll find that your location is close to that line, meaning that you will probably not need a rotator. There is a 50 page thread HERE on building UHF antennas.

I doubt you'll be able to receive WKYC-DT (rf 2) because of interference from KDKA in Pittsburgh and/or because there is so much electrical interference on channel 2. For WOIO-DT (rf 10), you'll need to add a high band VHF antenna like the Winegard YA-1713.

jvadas · 01-14-2008, 11:08 PM

Yes I built the 4 bay antenna but I left the reflector off. If I left it on, I could not get all the networks at once. I decided to remove it and my signal pegged at 77%.

Last night I thought of something. At my old address (Zip code 44410), I had an antenna there. I think I got it at radio shack about 10 years ago. I know that it will receive UHF and VHF. I used it to watch the cleveland stations when I had primestar. I went and got it today. I have no idea what the model it is or anything. All I know that it is almost the length of my s10!! The antenna itself is in great shape, but I have to run new coax and get a new, I believe it is call an antenna joiner?? I just have to do some minor repair on the clips that hold the blades out. I plan on putting it in the air on Wed. I now live in a 2 story house and before I was in a single story living in the middle of the woods, so I am guessing that I will have better luck at the current location.

I am still guessing that I will need some sort of preamp. I see a lot of people have the CM7777. I think that is it. Is there anything that I can buy locally, or should I order this one? Thanks for all you help.

jvadas · 01-15-2008, 04:42 PM

Did a little testing today. I set up that antenna that I got from my old house and set up up on the back deck. It was only 7 foot off the ground. I had a cheap in line amp on it. WKYC i got a reading of 25% but could not make anything out on the screen. WJW came in a 50%, WUAB was at about 25%, plus many other channels that I have no idea what they are. Also WEWS came in real good also. Tomorrow I am gonna place it on the roof. I seem to be getting the UHF, but was unable to really pull in any VHF. Will just have to wait and see tomorrow.

jvadas · 01-16-2008, 07:07 PM

I put that antenna on the roof today. Things did not go as planned! The only channel that i can get it wkyc. It comes in over 70%. Everything else is nothing. The only difference is that i have longer cable, and there is a joint up on the roof. I am pointing about 300 degrees. Would a pre amp work, or should i just try a single run of cable. i do not get it. i was only 7 feet off the ground yesterday and now nothing! I get the channel that i should not get. Thanks...

cbclark4 · 06-26-2009, 03:06 PM

An 8 bay whisker antenna should be able to pick up channels 7 through 13 on the VHF band as well as all the UHF bands. VHF at a range of 45 miles and UHF at 60 Miles.

I am going to build the 8 bay tonight.

Based on the 4 bay design at makezine.tv

IDRick · 06-26-2009, 09:22 PM

Wow, wish I could get that 10 minutes back waiting for the makezine.tv website...

cw1002002 · 06-29-2009, 11:26 PM

Hi, group. I have recently built an outdoor antenna that picks up most stations using a distribution amplifier to feed the signal to my Insignia DTV conter box and as to an AC/DC DTV set. The antenna has eight director elements in the front, all of which were spaced two inches apart (with the one that's 32 inches from the rectangular loop for UHF and the first director spaced only two inches from the loop as the driven element, and a reflector that's about 5 percent larger than the rectangular loop and spaced only 2.5 inches apart. The loop was made out of a 1-inch strip of aluminum by 18 inches long and formed into a loop and was mounted on an insulator to which a pair of VHF dipoles were attached with a pair of copper wires. It is supported on a mast that's only 5 feet tall with a balun the feeds the signal to the DTVs via a distributor amplifier.
I can get all the VHF full power channels (8-1,8-2,8-3,10-1 through 10-6---all low-power, 11-1 and 11-2 and channels13-1,13-2 and 13-3) as well as most most full power UHF channels except KNWS 51-1/DT 47 and low-power KHLM-DT 43 and its four DT subchannels. However, my antenna isn't high enough to pick up any distant channels including KBTX whose digital signal is on UHF channel 50 (virtual channels 3-1 and 3-2).
I have an ideal of using a 10-foot length of 1-inch EMT as a mast for my homemade VHF-Hi/UHF DTV antenna, using an extension RG-6 cable via a coupler which might help pull in these signals from both KHLM and KNWS. I welcome your suggestions on how to improve reception. Otherwise it works.
cw1002002, Houston

jim5506 · 06-30-2009, 12:04 PM

Sounds like you made a nice little yagi antenna.

Run a coax line directly to one of your TV's to test the antenna without any amplification or splitting. If the missing station(s) show up it indicates your line loss and splitter losses are putting that (those) stations below the digital cliff (no picture or sound) and the addition of an urban preamp might be indicated (Winegard HDP-269).

A distribution amplifier is amplifying the signal after it has traveled to the interior of your house, this includes amplifying any stray noise that it picks up on the way and you 've had signal loss in the wire also, so I prefer a pre-amp at the antenna to a distribution amplifer.

n3ntj · 07-01-2009, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cw1002002

Hi, group. I have recently built an outdoor antenna that picks up most stations using a distribution amplifier to feed the signal to my Insignia DTV conter box and as to an AC/DC DTV set. The antenna has eight director elements in the front, all of which were spaced two inches apart (with the one that's 32 inches from the rectangular loop for UHF and the first director spaced only two inches from the loop as the driven element, and a reflector that's about 5 percent larger than the rectangular loop and spaced only 2.5 inches apart. The loop was made out of a 1-inch strip of aluminum by 18 inches long and formed into a loop and was mounted on an insulator to which a pair of VHF dipoles were attached with a pair of copper wires. It is supported on a mast that's only 5 feet tall with a balun the feeds the signal to the DTVs via a distributor amplifier.
I can get all the VHF full power channels (8-1,8-2,8-3,10-1 through 10-6---all low-power, 11-1 and 11-2 and channels13-1,13-2 and 13-3) as well as most most full power UHF channels except KNWS 51-1/DT 47 and low-power KHLM-DT 43 and its four DT subchannels. However, my antenna isn't high enough to pick up any distant channels including KBTX whose digital signal is on UHF channel 50 (virtual channels 3-1 and 3-2).
I have an ideal of using a 10-foot length of 1-inch EMT as a mast for my homemade VHF-Hi/UHF DTV antenna, using an extension RG-6 cable via a coupler which might help pull in these signals from both KHLM and KNWS. I welcome your suggestions on how to improve reception. Otherwise it works.
cw1002002, Houston

Can you post a close-up photo or diagram of your yagi?

cbclark4 · 07-08-2009, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbclark4

An 8 bay whisker antenna should be able to pick up channels 7 through 13 on the VHF band as well as all the UHF bands. VHF at a range of 45 miles and UHF at 60 Miles.

I am going to build the 8 bay tonight.

Based on the 4 bay design at makezine.tv

Just to let you know this experiment failed.

I still can't get channel 9 (Gainesville) or Channel 11 (JAX).

Maybe I'll look into this "yagi".

01-13-2008, 12:21 AM	#1
jvadas High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newton Falls, OH Age: 37 Posts: 50	Build a VHF/UHF TV antenna? Just started to receive OTA hdtv. I built the 'cloths hanger' antenna and placed it in my attic and works fine for my 4 local (Youngstown OHIO). I was wondering if anyone knew if I could build a VHF/UHF antenna to reach out to catch the Cleveland stations(My local FOX station is not HD). I went to antennaweb.org and they stated that I needed a violet antenna. The furthest station is 41.1 miles away. All of the stations have just about the same compass orientation, so I would not need to move this antenna. Also, I notice on antennaweb.org that WJW channel 8 is a VHF station, but WJW-DT channel 8.1 is UHF. Then on the other hand, WKYC channel 3 and WKYC-DT channel 3.1 are both listed as VHF. What is the difference? Could someone explain that to me? I know that I am idiot when it comes to this. I have lived with cable to way too long! Thanks in advance for taking the time to help me out.

01-13-2008, 11:36 AM	#2
tube69 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: May 2005 Location: Salem, Ohio Age: 56 Posts: 114	What is your zip code? I live nearby in Salem. In February of 2009, WJW-DT will move from channel 31 to their current analog channel (8). WKYC-DT will move from channel 2 to channel 17. WOIO-DT will stay on channel 10. You'll need a setup that is capable of receiving high band VHF channels and UHF channels. __________________ Westinghouse LVM-37W1 LCD Monitor Dish Network DTVPal DVR Harman-Kardon AVR 635 AV Receiver 5 Dynaco A25 Speakers 1 JBL CinemaVision 400 Watt Powered Subwoofer Logitech Harmony 550 Remote Control Channel Master 4228 8-Bay UHF Antenna Winegard YA-1713 High Band VHF Antenna Channel Master 9521A Rotator Channel Master 7777 Titan2 Preamplifier 55' Antenna Tower Harman-Kardon DVD 48 DVD/SACD Player Samsung BD-P1500 Blu-ray Player Adcom ACE-515 Power Conditioner

01-14-2008, 07:55 PM	#6
tube69 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: May 2005 Location: Salem, Ohio Age: 56 Posts: 114	My guess is that you've built a 4-bay UHF antenna. You might want to consider building an open (no screen or foil reflector) 8-bay antenna. It may or may not work for all of the Cleveland channels. If you were to draw a line on a map between the Youngstown and Cleveland transmitters, you'll find that your location is close to that line, meaning that you will probably not need a rotator. There is a 50 page thread HERE on building UHF antennas. I doubt you'll be able to receive WKYC-DT (rf 2) because of interference from KDKA in Pittsburgh and/or because there is so much electrical interference on channel 2. For WOIO-DT (rf 10), you'll need to add a high band VHF antenna like the Winegard YA-1713. __________________ Westinghouse LVM-37W1 LCD Monitor Dish Network DTVPal DVR Harman-Kardon AVR 635 AV Receiver 5 Dynaco A25 Speakers 1 JBL CinemaVision 400 Watt Powered Subwoofer Logitech Harmony 550 Remote Control Channel Master 4228 8-Bay UHF Antenna Winegard YA-1713 High Band VHF Antenna Channel Master 9521A Rotator Channel Master 7777 Titan2 Preamplifier 55' Antenna Tower Harman-Kardon DVD 48 DVD/SACD Player Samsung BD-P1500 Blu-ray Player Adcom ACE-515 Power Conditioner

06-30-2009, 12:04 PM	#13
jim5506 Yellow Submarine Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lubbock, Texas Posts: 2,418	Sounds like you made a nice little yagi antenna. Run a coax line directly to one of your TV's to test the antenna without any amplification or splitting. If the missing station(s) show up it indicates your line loss and splitter losses are putting that (those) stations below the digital cliff (no picture or sound) and the addition of an urban preamp might be indicated (Winegard HDP-269). A distribution amplifier is amplifying the signal after it has traveled to the interior of your house, this includes amplifying any stray noise that it picks up on the way and you 've had signal loss in the wire also, so I prefer a pre-amp at the antenna to a distribution amplifer. __________________ Programming: Dish HD Absolute with 0.01 Cinemax Displays: Sony VPH-D50Q - 7 ft on the wall; Hitachi 57R59 Receivers: DishNetwork ViP722k; DishNetwork ViP211K; DishNetwork ViP211; DishNetwork 301; 2 - TiVo Series 2's; Accurian 6000; Samsung SIR-T351; Panasonic ShowStopper 2000; ATI HDTV Wonder Dish 1000 on 110,119,129; Dish 500 on 61.5; DPP44 Sony 80GB PS3; Toshiba HD-DVD

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01-13-2008, 03:35 PM	#4
jvadas High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newton Falls, OH Age: 37 Posts: 50	My zip is 44444

01-13-2008, 04:31 PM	#5
jvadas High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newton Falls, OH Age: 37 Posts: 50	Thanks for all the info. The next question is does anyone know when the local Fox (Channel 62 or WKBNDT-2) will be going hd? I had time Warner cable and it was HD there, but not over the air? So am I safe in saying that I am receiving a digital signal? I am using a Directv box h20-700 and the FOX station is listed as WKBNDT-2. All of my local over the air signals are pegged at 77%. I read in other threads that 77% will be the best I will get cause of a software bug. So in needing to have both a VHF & UHF antenna, are there any plan out there that I can use to build one?

01-14-2008, 11:08 PM	#7
jvadas High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newton Falls, OH Age: 37 Posts: 50	Yes I built the 4 bay antenna but I left the reflector off. If I left it on, I could not get all the networks at once. I decided to remove it and my signal pegged at 77%. Last night I thought of something. At my old address (Zip code 44410), I had an antenna there. I think I got it at radio shack about 10 years ago. I know that it will receive UHF and VHF. I used it to watch the cleveland stations when I had primestar. I went and got it today. I have no idea what the model it is or anything. All I know that it is almost the length of my s10!! The antenna itself is in great shape, but I have to run new coax and get a new, I believe it is call an antenna joiner?? I just have to do some minor repair on the clips that hold the blades out. I plan on putting it in the air on Wed. I now live in a 2 story house and before I was in a single story living in the middle of the woods, so I am guessing that I will have better luck at the current location. I am still guessing that I will need some sort of preamp. I see a lot of people have the CM7777. I think that is it. Is there anything that I can buy locally, or should I order this one? Thanks for all you help.

01-15-2008, 04:42 PM	#8
jvadas High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newton Falls, OH Age: 37 Posts: 50	Did a little testing today. I set up that antenna that I got from my old house and set up up on the back deck. It was only 7 foot off the ground. I had a cheap in line amp on it. WKYC i got a reading of 25% but could not make anything out on the screen. WJW came in a 50%, WUAB was at about 25%, plus many other channels that I have no idea what they are. Also WEWS came in real good also. Tomorrow I am gonna place it on the roof. I seem to be getting the UHF, but was unable to really pull in any VHF. Will just have to wait and see tomorrow.

01-16-2008, 07:07 PM	#9
jvadas High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Newton Falls, OH Age: 37 Posts: 50	I put that antenna on the roof today. Things did not go as planned! The only channel that i can get it wkyc. It comes in over 70%. Everything else is nothing. The only difference is that i have longer cable, and there is a joint up on the roof. I am pointing about 300 degrees. Would a pre amp work, or should i just try a single run of cable. i do not get it. i was only 7 feet off the ground yesterday and now nothing! I get the channel that i should not get. Thanks...

06-26-2009, 03:06 PM	#10
cbclark4 Just one station Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3	An 8 bay whisker antenna should be able to pick up channels 7 through 13 on the VHF band as well as all the UHF bands. VHF at a range of 45 miles and UHF at 60 Miles. I am going to build the 8 bay tonight. Based on the 4 bay design at makezine.tv

06-26-2009, 09:22 PM	#11
IDRick High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Eastern Idaho Posts: 1,102	Wow, wish I could get that 10 minutes back waiting for the makezine.tv website...

06-29-2009, 11:26 PM	#12
cw1002002 What is HD? Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2	Hi, group. I have recently built an outdoor antenna that picks up most stations using a distribution amplifier to feed the signal to my Insignia DTV conter box and as to an AC/DC DTV set. The antenna has eight director elements in the front, all of which were spaced two inches apart (with the one that's 32 inches from the rectangular loop for UHF and the first director spaced only two inches from the loop as the driven element, and a reflector that's about 5 percent larger than the rectangular loop and spaced only 2.5 inches apart. The loop was made out of a 1-inch strip of aluminum by 18 inches long and formed into a loop and was mounted on an insulator to which a pair of VHF dipoles were attached with a pair of copper wires. It is supported on a mast that's only 5 feet tall with a balun the feeds the signal to the DTVs via a distributor amplifier. I can get all the VHF full power channels (8-1,8-2,8-3,10-1 through 10-6---all low-power, 11-1 and 11-2 and channels13-1,13-2 and 13-3) as well as most most full power UHF channels except KNWS 51-1/DT 47 and low-power KHLM-DT 43 and its four DT subchannels. However, my antenna isn't high enough to pick up any distant channels including KBTX whose digital signal is on UHF channel 50 (virtual channels 3-1 and 3-2). I have an ideal of using a 10-foot length of 1-inch EMT as a mast for my homemade VHF-Hi/UHF DTV antenna, using an extension RG-6 cable via a coupler which might help pull in these signals from both KHLM and KNWS. I welcome your suggestions on how to improve reception. Otherwise it works. cw1002002, Houston