OTA: Poor HD reception, but SD works well.

jdecami · 01-06-2008, 04:06 PM

Hello,

I'm a newbie to this forum and to HDTV. I've tried to do my own research, but I'm at the point where I need to ask for help. Any feedback provided will be greatly appreciated!

My equipment:

LG LST-3510-A HD Receiver/DVD Player
Philips DVDR3575H/37 HDD & DVD Player/Recorder with Digital tuner
Sony Wega KV-27HS420 HD-ready 27" TV (has multiple inputs including DVI and component).
Terk TV-35 rooftop antenna
Silver Sensor indoor antenna

The problem:

The LG only receives two channels (9.1 and 9.2) and reception is often unstable (it pixellates or loses the signal entirely). All other channels display "No Signal". (The built-in signal meter is in the Weak range, just below Moderate, on the channels I do receive.)
The Philips receives all local DTV channels. Reception is very clear and consistent. Of course it is SD, not HD.

Background:

I have Dish Network service (standard, not HD) and my old TV died about two years ago and I needed a replacement. I purchased the Sony for several reasons, but primarily because of space limitations and HD-ready capability. The TV worked just fine with my Dish receiver.

Later, I purchased the LG as an open-box item at Circuit City, thinking that I could use it to receive OTA HD programming. After connecting it, I found that the DVD player works great (connected via an HDMI-to-DVI cable), but I have great difficulty getting any OTA reception. I did not return it because I thought that I had problems with my antenna. I originally had an old Radio Shack antenna with some broken elements. I decided to replace it with the Terk. It did not help much!

There are some high-rise apartments in my area and I thought that I was having multipath issues. My analog UHF stations never came in very clearly, either with the original Radio Shack antenna or with the Terk. (Lots of ghosting)

I purchased the Silver Sensor thinking that it was highly directional and that I could easily point it to the best angle for any given station, but I still was able to receive only channels 9.1 and 9.2. I also tried using a Radio Shack signal amplifier on both the Silver Sensor and the Terk. It didn't make much difference.

I tried to have a reception specialist come to my home and do a survey and make some recommendations, but that fell through (I think I was not a big enough customer for him.) After that, I just let the issue drop and decided I would do without HDTV until such time as I decided to subscribe to HD programming through Dish Network or decided upon some other option.

Recently, I purchased the Philips, mainly for its DVR capability, but was pleasantly surprised to find out that it does receive all of the digital channels in my area! The Philips is connected to my TV via component cables and the picture is noticeably clearer than analog and is quite stable. It is connected to the Terk antenna without the signal amp.

So now, my questions are these. Since I can receive the SD digital broadcasts clearly on the Philips, it is reasonable to assume that the Terk is doing its job and the problem with HD reception is in the LG receiver? Or is there some difference between the HD and SD digital signals that make the HD signals harder to receive and do I need to still investigate other antenna options?

Does anyone have any answers?

Thanks in advance!

rinardman · 01-06-2008, 08:08 PM

I would say your assumption about the antenna, and the LG is probably correct. I would suspect it either has a poor receiver, or a defective receiver.

And, no, there is no difference between a SD signal and HD signal. If you can get one, you also get the other.

It's possible the LG receiver might work with a better antenna setup.

tigerbangs · 01-06-2008, 08:20 PM

It would sure help to know your zip code, so we could tell you what kind of antenna you may need! By the way: I can't find any information about a Terk 35 outdoor antenna: are you sure you have the right model number?

rinardman · 01-06-2008, 10:02 PM

Is it this one?

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANTV35

jdecami · 01-06-2008, 10:16 PM

Thanks for the replies.

My zip code is 80220. Perhaps Terk does not make the TV35 any more, but I did find a message from Circuit City on my hard drive that confirmed my order:

Processed Order:
QTY PRODUCT TAX AMOUNT
1 TRK TV35 Terk Outdoor VHF/UHF Antenna Y $29.99

A google search for "Terk TV35" returned 932 hits. I was going to include one of them, but I guess I don't have enough posts to include a URL in my message.

I remember checking my antenna requirements at antennaweb.org at the time and the TV35 seemed to be suitable.

jdecami · 01-07-2008, 12:48 AM

Yes, Rinardman, that looks like my antenna.

I checked antennaweb.org again tonight and it shows that channel 12.1 is in the red category. I can definitely receive that on the Philips, so I think it's reasonable to deduce that the TV35 is strong enough to pull in stations of that class. I also get a solid reception on 31.1, which is catagorized green. All of the other stations I watch (and can get on the Philips) are in the yellow category. The reason that I question the antenna at all is because of the high-rige apartments and the ghosting problems that I have with UHF analog.

If there is no difference between an SD and HD signal, I'm starting to think that maybe the LG receiver is defective. I have found posts about that model on this, and other forums and other people have been quite pleased with its capabilities so I think the basic quality is good. I did find one post where LG had told the person to send it in for a replacement.

Is there any type of equipment I can buy, or rent, to measure the strength of my antenna signal that would not be cost-prohibitive? If not, I may just have to get the LG to a repair center to have them check it out.

tigerbangs · 01-07-2008, 09:38 AM

AHA! Denver! Home of Coors and NIMBY! The problem isn't with your tuner, it's with your city and it's transmitters! The transmitters are scattered all over town, and until they build the digital antenna for the major stations in Golden, you aren't going to be able to get all your TV stations with one aiming of your antenna! I strongly suggest that you consider installing a rotator on your antenna, as that will allow you to turn the antenna to aim at the stations in different directions: some are downtown, some are in Golden, and some are God-Knows-Where!

jdecami · 01-07-2008, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerbangs

AHA! Denver! Home of Coors and NIMBY! The problem isn't with your tuner, it's with your city and it's transmitters! The transmitters are scattered all over town, and until they build the digital antenna for the major stations in Golden, you aren't going to be able to get all your TV stations with one aiming of your antenna! I strongly suggest that you consider installing a rotator on your antenna, as that will allow you to turn the antenna to aim at the stations in different directions: some are downtown, some are in Golden, and some are God-Knows-Where!

I am somewhat aware of the controversy between the Lake Cedar Group and those who don't want the new transmitter on Lookout Mountain. That is another reason why I abandoned my effort a while back. But the fact that I can receive all of the local stations on my standard definition ATSC tuner gave me new hope. If the cause of the problem is the location of the transmitters, then why can I receive all of the local stations on my Philips? That is what prompted me to ask if HD signals were any more difficult to receive. Most of the stations are in the same general direction from where I live, albeit varying distances. The reason I bought the Silver Sensor was so that I could easily experiment with the effects of aiming the antenna in different directions. Not much luck there! (I know, it's an indoor antenna.) Once, and only once, I was able to pull in channel 7.1 for a short time.

I would be willing to spend the money for a better antenna and/or a rotator if I had some reasonable assurance that it would work, but I don't want to go that route only to find that I've wasted my money.

tigerbangs · 01-07-2008, 01:52 PM

I wonder how you have the signal divided between the Phillips HDD and the LG: are you using a 2 way splitter, or are you running the antenna signal into the Phillips and out of the HDD into the LG? You may find substantial improvement if you use a 2-way high-quality splitter to feed the two devices...

How do you have the LG receiver connected to your TV set? You have to use one of three possible connections in order to get an HD signal from the tuner, component cables ( red, blue, green), a DVI cable or an RGB connector, like a computer monitor cable.

One other possibility is that you may need to set the output of the LG to output 1080i or 720p. I know that my LG LST3100 has a front panel control to set the resolution: you may have to select your correct output to see true HD

jdecami · 01-07-2008, 04:05 PM

The signal is not currently, and never has been, divided between the Philips and the LG. I only recently bought the Philips and have it connected to the antenna lead from the Terk through a splitter which is also connected to a VCR (which I almost never use any more). The LG is currently connected to the Silver Sensor, but when I was originally trying to troubleshoot the setup, I had it connected directly to the Terk, with no splitter, and also had it connected through the preamp. Neither of those configurations worked any better than the Silver Sensor does now.

I don't believe my connection to the TV is an issue. I have it connected via the DVI output via a DVI-to-HDMI cable (I stated it backwards in my initial post. The TV has an HDMI input, not DVI. The LG has DVI output.) Anyway, that works great. It upconverts my DVDs and the two channels that I do get on the LG are very obviously HD - much more detailed than the SD on the Philips (which is clear and sharp, but doesn't have the same resolution.)

tigerbangs · 01-07-2008, 11:36 PM

OK, I finally figured out what is going on here! Your Philips DVDR3575H/37 is a Standard Definition HDD recorder with an NTSC tuner, according to the Phillips website: it has no ability to tune digital stations, only analog stations. They may be clear, but they are NOT digital! The LG tuner, the LST-3510 has a DIGITAL-ONLY tuner in it: no ANALOG tuner. I had to go back to my LG literature to check that fact: my LG LST-3100 tuner is also a digital-only tuner.

The fact that Denver does not have it's digital transmitters on Lookout Mountain at the moment is causing your problem with ABC, NBC, and CBS, whose analog transmitters are located on Lookout Mountain, but their DIGITAL transmitters are located atop a skyscraper in downtown Denver, and operating with very low power. As I said in an earlier post, your digital stations are scattered all over Denver, and no one antenna direction is going to find the major stations. The Terk 35 that you own has pretty weak UHF performance, and, when aimed away from the primary digital transmitters will probably not see adequate signal to trigger the digital receiver!

My original suggestion stands: if you want digital reception, either invest in a better antenna and a rotator, or wait until the construction project is finished on Lookout Mountain.

jdecami · 01-08-2008, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerbangs

Your Philips DVDR3575H/37 is a Standard Definition HDD recorder with an NTSC tuner, according to the Phillips website: it has no ability to tune digital stations, only analog stations.

Tigerbangs,

I truly appreciate the effort you're putting into helping me with my issue. However, I must disagree with your statement about the DVDR3575H/37. I am 100% certain that it contains both an NTSC and an ATSC tuner. Not only does the Philips web site state that here under Tuner/Reception/Transmission: http://www.consumer.philips.com/cons...r+DVDR3575H-37

but when I operate the device, I can switch between them. Also, the ATSC tuner allows me to access the sub-channels. For example, one of our PBS stations, KBDI, broadcasts on 12.1, 12.2, and 12.3 and I can receive all of them. I am definitely receiving a standard definition, digital signal on the Philips via my Terk antenna.

I'm willing to acknowledge that the location of the transmitters still may be the cause of my problem. But if that were the case, it would imply that the tuner in the Philips is far superior to that in the LG. It would have to be able to take whatever weak signals are captured by the Terk and translate them into watchable programs. Whatever it is doing, its performance is quite consistent.

I have another idea. I just gave my son a Panasonic DVD recorder with a built-in ATSC tuner for Christmas. There is no antenna feed in his room, so it is not connected. I will take his tuner and put it in place of the LG and see if it can receive digital programming. If it works, I can conclude that the problem is the LG. I will probably not be able to try it until this weekend since my cabling is fairly difficult to access. It requires pulling a pretty heavy entertainment center away from the wall and will take more than a few minutes.

w0en · 01-08-2008, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdecami

Tigerbangs,

DVDR3575H/37. I am 100% certain that it contains both an NTSC and an ATSC tuner. snip...

. it would imply that the tuner in the Philips is far superior to that in the LG. It would have to be able to take whatever weak signals are captured by the Terk and translate them into watchable programs. Whatever it is doing, its performance is quite consistent.

If it works, I can conclude that the problem is the LG.

It has an SD ATSC tuner....

I own a number of this vintage LG tuner chipset in HD Directv boxes as well as the "holy grail" 3410 LG HD DVR with the same vintage chipset. The Magnavox has a good tuner as does all the LG of that vintage. The Magnavox is newer and may handle multipath better but, I'd guess the 3510 unit was "open box"for a reason

JVC34ict · 01-13-2008, 08:19 AM

the Philips DVR mentioned does have a SDTV tuner ( 480 only)

jdecami · 02-03-2008, 02:58 PM

Well, I was almost too embarassed to post here again. I connected the lead from the antenna directly to the LG and now I can receive most of the digital stations in which I'm interested! I would have sworn that I had tried that last year, unsuccessfully, when I was trying to deal with the problem, but it seems to work now.

I was thinking that either the signals in my area have improved or my brain was in Park when I was trying to troubleshoot this problem! Then I read something that led me to what I think is the answer. Trees!

There are several trees in my yard and I'm pretty sure that when I was originally trying to set up the LG, it was at a time when there was full foliage. Now the trees are bare and I think that the signals reaching my antenna have improved. I think that I'll wait until Spring before I attempt to upgrade my antenna or make any other modifications to my system.

Thanks to all who have provided suggestions!

01-06-2008, 04:06 PM	#1
jdecami My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 7	OTA: Poor HD reception, but SD works well. Hello, I'm a newbie to this forum and to HDTV. I've tried to do my own research, but I'm at the point where I need to ask for help. Any feedback provided will be greatly appreciated! My equipment: LG LST-3510-A HD Receiver/DVD Player Philips DVDR3575H/37 HDD & DVD Player/Recorder with Digital tuner Sony Wega KV-27HS420 HD-ready 27" TV (has multiple inputs including DVI and component). Terk TV-35 rooftop antenna Silver Sensor indoor antenna The problem: The LG only receives two channels (9.1 and 9.2) and reception is often unstable (it pixellates or loses the signal entirely). All other channels display "No Signal". (The built-in signal meter is in the Weak range, just below Moderate, on the channels I do receive.) The Philips receives all local DTV channels. Reception is very clear and consistent. Of course it is SD, not HD. Background: I have Dish Network service (standard, not HD) and my old TV died about two years ago and I needed a replacement. I purchased the Sony for several reasons, but primarily because of space limitations and HD-ready capability. The TV worked just fine with my Dish receiver. Later, I purchased the LG as an open-box item at Circuit City, thinking that I could use it to receive OTA HD programming. After connecting it, I found that the DVD player works great (connected via an HDMI-to-DVI cable), but I have great difficulty getting any OTA reception. I did not return it because I thought that I had problems with my antenna. I originally had an old Radio Shack antenna with some broken elements. I decided to replace it with the Terk. It did not help much! There are some high-rise apartments in my area and I thought that I was having multipath issues. My analog UHF stations never came in very clearly, either with the original Radio Shack antenna or with the Terk. (Lots of ghosting) I purchased the Silver Sensor thinking that it was highly directional and that I could easily point it to the best angle for any given station, but I still was able to receive only channels 9.1 and 9.2. I also tried using a Radio Shack signal amplifier on both the Silver Sensor and the Terk. It didn't make much difference. I tried to have a reception specialist come to my home and do a survey and make some recommendations, but that fell through (I think I was not a big enough customer for him.) After that, I just let the issue drop and decided I would do without HDTV until such time as I decided to subscribe to HD programming through Dish Network or decided upon some other option. Recently, I purchased the Philips, mainly for its DVR capability, but was pleasantly surprised to find out that it does receive all of the digital channels in my area! The Philips is connected to my TV via component cables and the picture is noticeably clearer than analog and is quite stable. It is connected to the Terk antenna without the signal amp. So now, my questions are these. Since I can receive the SD digital broadcasts clearly on the Philips, it is reasonable to assume that the Terk is doing its job and the problem with HD reception is in the LG receiver? Or is there some difference between the HD and SD digital signals that make the HD signals harder to receive and do I need to still investigate other antenna options? Does anyone have any answers? Thanks in advance!

01-06-2008, 08:08 PM	#2
rinardman High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 217	I would say your assumption about the antenna, and the LG is probably correct. I would suspect it either has a poor receiver, or a defective receiver. And, no, there is no difference between a SD signal and HD signal. If you can get one, you also get the other. It's possible the LG receiver might work with a better antenna setup. __________________ Sharp LC42D65U Sharp BD-HP21U Sanyo DP32647 LCD Toshiba HD-A2 Potluck 5.1 surround Two DB-8s & one YA 1713 CM7777 & CM3043 60+ miles out What, me worry?

01-06-2008, 08:20 PM	#3
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 2,116	It would sure help to know your zip code, so we could tell you what kind of antenna you may need! By the way: I can't find any information about a Terk 35 outdoor antenna: are you sure you have the right model number? __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

01-06-2008, 10:02 PM	#4
rinardman High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 217	Is it this one? http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANTV35 __________________ Sharp LC42D65U Sharp BD-HP21U Sanyo DP32647 LCD Toshiba HD-A2 Potluck 5.1 surround Two DB-8s & one YA 1713 CM7777 & CM3043 60+ miles out What, me worry?

01-07-2008, 09:38 AM	#7
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 2,116	AHA! Denver! Home of Coors and NIMBY! The problem isn't with your tuner, it's with your city and it's transmitters! The transmitters are scattered all over town, and until they build the digital antenna for the major stations in Golden, you aren't going to be able to get all your TV stations with one aiming of your antenna! I strongly suggest that you consider installing a rotator on your antenna, as that will allow you to turn the antenna to aim at the stations in different directions: some are downtown, some are in Golden, and some are God-Knows-Where! __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

01-06-2008, 10:16 PM	#5
jdecami My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 7	Thanks for the replies. My zip code is 80220. Perhaps Terk does not make the TV35 any more, but I did find a message from Circuit City on my hard drive that confirmed my order: Processed Order: QTY PRODUCT TAX AMOUNT 1 TRK TV35 Terk Outdoor VHF/UHF Antenna Y $29.99 A google search for "Terk TV35" returned 932 hits. I was going to include one of them, but I guess I don't have enough posts to include a URL in my message. I remember checking my antenna requirements at antennaweb.org at the time and the TV35 seemed to be suitable.

01-07-2008, 12:48 AM	#6
jdecami My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 7	Yes, Rinardman, that looks like my antenna. I checked antennaweb.org again tonight and it shows that channel 12.1 is in the red category. I can definitely receive that on the Philips, so I think it's reasonable to deduce that the TV35 is strong enough to pull in stations of that class. I also get a solid reception on 31.1, which is catagorized green. All of the other stations I watch (and can get on the Philips) are in the yellow category. The reason that I question the antenna at all is because of the high-rige apartments and the ghosting problems that I have with UHF analog. If there is no difference between an SD and HD signal, I'm starting to think that maybe the LG receiver is defective. I have found posts about that model on this, and other forums and other people have been quite pleased with its capabilities so I think the basic quality is good. I did find one post where LG had told the person to send it in for a replacement. Is there any type of equipment I can buy, or rent, to measure the strength of my antenna signal that would not be cost-prohibitive? If not, I may just have to get the LG to a repair center to have them check it out.

01-07-2008, 01:52 PM	#9
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 2,116	I wonder how you have the signal divided between the Phillips HDD and the LG: are you using a 2 way splitter, or are you running the antenna signal into the Phillips and out of the HDD into the LG? You may find substantial improvement if you use a 2-way high-quality splitter to feed the two devices... How do you have the LG receiver connected to your TV set? You have to use one of three possible connections in order to get an HD signal from the tuner, component cables ( red, blue, green), a DVI cable or an RGB connector, like a computer monitor cable. One other possibility is that you may need to set the output of the LG to output 1080i or 720p. I know that my LG LST3100 has a front panel control to set the resolution: you may have to select your correct output to see true HD __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women! Last edited by tigerbangs; 01-07-2008 at 02:02 PM.

01-07-2008, 04:05 PM	#10
jdecami My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 7	The signal is not currently, and never has been, divided between the Philips and the LG. I only recently bought the Philips and have it connected to the antenna lead from the Terk through a splitter which is also connected to a VCR (which I almost never use any more). The LG is currently connected to the Silver Sensor, but when I was originally trying to troubleshoot the setup, I had it connected directly to the Terk, with no splitter, and also had it connected through the preamp. Neither of those configurations worked any better than the Silver Sensor does now. I don't believe my connection to the TV is an issue. I have it connected via the DVI output via a DVI-to-HDMI cable (I stated it backwards in my initial post. The TV has an HDMI input, not DVI. The LG has DVI output.) Anyway, that works great. It upconverts my DVDs and the two channels that I do get on the LG are very obviously HD - much more detailed than the SD on the Philips (which is clear and sharp, but doesn't have the same resolution.)

01-07-2008, 11:36 PM	#11
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 2,116	OK, I finally figured out what is going on here! Your Philips DVDR3575H/37 is a Standard Definition HDD recorder with an NTSC tuner, according to the Phillips website: it has no ability to tune digital stations, only analog stations. They may be clear, but they are NOT digital! The LG tuner, the LST-3510 has a DIGITAL-ONLY tuner in it: no ANALOG tuner. I had to go back to my LG literature to check that fact: my LG LST-3100 tuner is also a digital-only tuner. The fact that Denver does not have it's digital transmitters on Lookout Mountain at the moment is causing your problem with ABC, NBC, and CBS, whose analog transmitters are located on Lookout Mountain, but their DIGITAL transmitters are located atop a skyscraper in downtown Denver, and operating with very low power. As I said in an earlier post, your digital stations are scattered all over Denver, and no one antenna direction is going to find the major stations. The Terk 35 that you own has pretty weak UHF performance, and, when aimed away from the primary digital transmitters will probably not see adequate signal to trigger the digital receiver! My original suggestion stands: if you want digital reception, either invest in a better antenna and a rotator, or wait until the construction project is finished on Lookout Mountain. __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

01-13-2008, 08:19 AM	#14
JVC34ict A couch and an HDTV to go please. Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 10	yes it's SDTV the Philips DVR mentioned does have a SDTV tuner ( 480 only)

02-03-2008, 02:58 PM	#15
jdecami My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 7	Well, I was almost too embarassed to post here again. I connected the lead from the antenna directly to the LG and now I can receive most of the digital stations in which I'm interested! I would have sworn that I had tried that last year, unsuccessfully, when I was trying to deal with the problem, but it seems to work now. I was thinking that either the signals in my area have improved or my brain was in Park when I was trying to troubleshoot this problem! Then I read something that led me to what I think is the answer. Trees! There are several trees in my yard and I'm pretty sure that when I was originally trying to set up the LG, it was at a time when there was full foliage. Now the trees are bare and I think that the signals reaching my antenna have improved. I think that I'll wait until Spring before I attempt to upgrade my antenna or make any other modifications to my system. Thanks to all who have provided suggestions!

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