Tigerbangs/everyone -- further antenna /OTA HD reception questions (long post!)

Steve Goss · 01-26-2006, 03:17 AM

Gentlemen --

Thank you all so much for your replies on my previous post.

Tigerbangs, I thank you for confirming my suspicions that the Radio Shack guy was wrong. I even, in the store, took him to the antennaweb web site, showed him the "VHF" designation on KOCO's digital broadcast, to which he told me something about how that although this might be true of KOCO's digital broadcast, their HD broadcast would most certainly be a UHF frequency. I tried to tell him that to the best of my knowledge, KOCO's digital broadcast is broadcast in 720p -- thus making it HD. He said "no, digital broadcasts and HD broadcasts are not the same thing." I said "all HD broadcasts are digital, but not all digital broadcasts are HD -- but in this case, it seems to me that KOCO's digital broadcast is in fact HD, AND VHF, right?" He said no. I gave up and just told him I'd try the small version of their UHF/VHF/FM combo. He said if that didn't work, I could take it back and try the next bigger size, or the UHF antenna he suggested.

Anyway, here is the issue. I am a huge football fan. Part of the reason I jumped on the HD bandwagon in this relatively early stage of HD broadcasting is that I want to watch football in HD. A few friends I know have it, and have had me over for games. I am amazed by the difference

.

So, to make a long story short, I decided to purchase now, instead of later, specifically because my team made the Super Bowl. Which brings me to the issue I want to discuss. The Super Bowl is being broadcast in HD on ABC. Well, of course, the local ABC affiliate is KOCO -- the station in question. Now, from what I understand, this issue is complicated. KOCO is channel 5, but as you point out, the HD broadcast is indeed on channel 7 (7.1). (By the way, does 7.1 and 7-1 mean the same thing? My Samsung DLP does not have the ability to punch in 7.1 -- you have to punch in 7-1.) Anyway, several folks here in town have told me that they have no trouble getting all the other HD OTA broadcasts, but they struggle to get KOCO's HD. Apparently, from what I can tell after asking some questions, the issue is that Lawton, OK (about 80 miles SSW of OKC) has an ABC affiliate which just happens to broadcast its normal NTSC broadcast on channel 7. And apparently somehow, KOCO's HD broadcast was interfering with the Lawton viewing area's reception of Lawton's ABC station. So, if I understand correctly, KOCO has reduced the power of their HD broadcast. If I'm not mistaken, they apparently have only weakened this signal in the SW direction, though. Does this make any sense? Is this possible?

Anyway, the folks I know who have HD (and who have struggled to receive the KOCO OTA HD broadcast) live slightly west of south of the KOCO transmitter, roughtly along the Oklahoma City to Lawton radial. I however live about 10 miles east of these folks, putting me SSE of the transmitter (antenna web says that for my street address, I need to aim my antenna in the 335 to 338 degree direction). Thus, I am HOPING that, if all of this is correct, that the KOCO HD broadcast signal strength may be stronger in my direction, and that I'll have more luck getting KOCO HD.

Having said all of this, here is my issue.

I ran a coaxial cable from my attic to the TV set today. I hooked it up to the TV, and just briefly hooked up some rabbit ears in my attic. I could see all of the VHF stations analog broadcasts (didn't try the UHF stations), but each station had varying degrees of "snowiness." Some were decent, some were not too good at all. Obviously, no digital or HD signals could be received at all.

I have not hooked up the radio shack antenna yet. However, based on all the info I've received here in this forum, and the performance of the rabbit ears, I have my doubts whether this OR the bigger Radio Shack antenna will work. I'll try these options, and presuming they won't work, I guess it's time to try the roof option (imagine that).

Now, tigerbangs, I know you told me about the channel master 4228. I also read your "prescription for deep fringe reception" sticky, where I sense your frustration with people trying to "modify" your suggestions for various reasons -- instead of just doing things the way you advise. However, please allow me a chance to ask you for some alternatives. I checked online last night, and to get the 4228 plus the 7777 preamp, I'm in the $150 to $200 range. Further, to do the install properly, considering the steep roof I have, I'd have to hire someone (more $), and the mast would have to be QUITE HIGH off the ground, to achieve the apparently ideal "5-10 feet above the roof line" situation. Now, not only does this sound quite expensive, but we are also looking at the fact that Oklahoma is QUITE windy, and experiences alot of severe thunderstorms, thus making this installation even more difficult and costly. After spending all the money on an HDTV just 2 days ago, I can't justify sinking another $500 or so into antenna/install at this time -- just to get the HD version of a couple of stations to watch a few football games a year, stations that I already get digitally through satellite.

SO, having said all that -- I have come up with one option which I want to get your opinion on.

I have a "dormer" which sticks out of our roof -- off the back side of our house. If you don't know what a dormer is, think of a cape cod-style house. The two windows which stick out of the roof above the porch are set within dormers. Anyway, this dormer is aligned roughly WNW. Now, someone, somewhere in this forum nentioned a "Square Shooter" antenna by Winegard. What I would like to do is to try this antenna, and mount it on the north-facing vertical side of the dormer, where I could turn it such that it would have a perfectly clear view to the NNW toward the Oklahoma City antenna farm. Do I have any hope with this solution? I read some reviews and some information about the sharp shooter, and it appers that it is much better for UHF, stinks for VHF channels 2-6, but improves from 7 on up in the VHF range. Is this true? If so, I might have some hope with this setup for channel 7 (the rest being UHF and probably not a problem to receive) -- should I try it? If so, any suggestions as to how to optimize the setup?

I just think that for Homeowner's association issues, for cost reasons (I can install this myself), etc., this setup would work for me easier than your initial suggestion. Also, if I go this route, should I consider the 2000 versus the 1000 model, the 2000 having the amp?

Finally, can you please fill me in on how to read the tech specs? For channel 7 (KOCO) for example, I see these Square Shooter specs: 95 degree beam width at half power points, 6.0 dB front to back ratio, and I also see a circular, gridded "compass" looking chart, which shows a "polar pattern" skewed 45 degress to the left of "0," towards 315 degress -- which I assume is with respect to the radial between one's location and the transmitter (which would be the 0 radial -- correct?). Anyway, these specs are completely greek

to me. What does "beam width at half power points" tell me? What is a "front to back ratio," and what does 6.0 dB mean in a relative sense (is this high or low or good or bad or what?) What does this compass grid diagram and the overlaid pattern show me, with respect to this antenna's performance for channel 7? Can you explain any of this to me? More importantly, does this info tell you anything about if/how I might be able to use this antenna in my specific situation?

Finally, one last question (I promise -- only one more, for now!!) -- I have always been of the mindset that VHF means channels 2-13, and UHF is 14 and above. However, as we've discussed, only channel 7.1 (KOCO's digital) is VHF. All the other digital broadcasts from Oklahoma City appear to be UHF. How can channel 4.1, and channel 9.1, the digital versions of our local NBC and CBS, be considered "UHF." More importantly, how can I relate this to antenna reception? In other words, if I buy a UHF antenna, which says "for channels 14 and up," do I assume this antenna to be appropriate for channel 4.1 because 4.1 is UHF according to antennaweb, OR, is it inappropriate, since channel 4.1 is not within the "channels 14 and up" range? I am SO confused!

Thank you so much for your time, and please forgive my long-windedness and all my questions. I just really want to understand this.

Steve (trying to become less of a "newbie," one question at a time!

)

P.S. I will probably be away from the computer through the weekend, so I may not have a chance to check this forum until Monday. So for any answers I might get to these questions, I may not be able to read them until then.

Thanks!

maicaw · 01-26-2006, 05:46 AM

When our only PBS station was Channel 7 35 miles away - I bought a 10 element Channel 7 yagi and had good results getting that channel with it -- don't know whether you can still buy single channel VHF yagi's- they weren't any more expensive than Radio Schack at that time - but I could send you mine - its' showing 20 years weathering

- but still works As Far As I Can Tell - of course they aren't small - about 7' long and 2½' wide

Rick0725 · 01-26-2006, 06:37 AM

From what I have been reading...Your issue is ...."I just want an antenna so I can enjoy my new TV watching the superbowl in HD and I do not want to spend alot of money and can not justify it right now (since I spent so much on the new TV.) This is putting alot of stress on me because I have to do something real fast since the game is only a few weeks away.

Let me help you put it into perspective.

Your market has low channel vhf...you have other tv's in the house that are not digital and it would be nice to get get analog on those during the transition to 2009...you are 25-30 miles from the towers...there are some digital in the red zone..most of stations are in one direction... gets windy there...have second thoughts of putting an antenna outside...dont want to spend alot of money...may need to spend more money for installation...not sure if the antenna will work in the attic...but that is his direction ...wants an inexpensive alternative so he can watch the supperbowl in a few weeks in the interim.

I have to go to work right now...let's try to help this gentleman out. I will give it some thought and post later. First thought...return the radio shack small antenna ..leaning toward the winegard HD7084P. as opposed to the cm-4228 right now...even though its a less expensive alternative...thinking long term and one time solution with no reworks later.

Visited Okahoma city a few years ago doing some consulting work...experienced one of those storms you are thinking about...skies get real dark...real windy...nasty.

Rick

tigerbangs · 01-26-2006, 07:53 AM

It's been proven that a VHF digital station and an analog station can co-exist on the same channel without much of a problem. We have a situation here in Connecticut much like that. WTXX-DT operates on channel 12 here in Hartford, and 20 miles away, Connecticut Public Television operates a low-power translator in Waterbury on channel 12. We haven't heard any complaints from people saying that either channel interfered with the iother: people in Waterbury who have digital tuners get WTX-DT, and people with analog tuners get CPTV iwithout complaints.

Having said that, what is the right antenna for you? Well, KOCO shuldn't be a problem for you with the right antenna. Here is an FCC map of their coverage area:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT579517.html

With a good antenna, you shouldn't ghave any trouble with their signal. It's true that the Channel Master 4228 will pick up VHF channels 7-13: it is fairly good at it, but not as good as a fringe-area all-channel antenna. The trade-off here is that the 4228 is a relatively compact antenna and the Winegard HD7084p is quite large, and better than twice the money. Will you have a problem getting KOCO-DT with a Channel Master 4228? No, I don't think you will, although a Winegard HD7084p will do it better, as will a Channel Master Crossfire 3671 or a Wade-Delhi VU-935SR. All of the antennas I mentioned are longer than 11' in length, and are not exactly a low-profile design. They work well, but their UHF reception isn't as good as what you'd get from a Channel Master 4228, but any of them will do what you need them to do in your situation.

If you have any need for analog reception to feed the other TV sets in your house, the all-channel antennas are a better choice for you, since you have a couple of low-band VHF analog channels in OKC.

The channels that you see like 7-1 or 4-1 are actually virtual channels: they were meant to uncomplicate the transition from analog broadcasting to digital broadcasting. Essentially, a virtual channel uses the identity of the analog channel to identify the digital channel: for example: KOCO operates on channel 5 analog in OKC: It's been there on channel 5 for a million years, and everyone knows that when they se channel 5, they are going to see KOCO and ABC broadcasting. KOCO-DT operates on channel 7. The broadcasters and the FCC thought that viewers would have problems figuring out that channel 7 digital was actually KOCO, so the devised a scheme to allow your digital tuner to identify the station by it's original analog channel number. Hence channel 5-1 is actially channel 7, but your tuner is making an association for you to help iidentify KOCO. This process has proved more confusing for most people than anyonbe realized. Some broadcasters have a hard time maintaining the digital data stream that provides that identifying link, and many people buy TV sets that they believe will tune digital stations, only to find out that the channel 5 that they are watching is analog instead of digital. It's a mess in many places, and the vitrual channel identification scheme may well be more trouble than it's worth...LOL

If you are having an issue finding out which actual channels are digital in your area, antennaweb.org will tell you that. For example, KFOR-DT is on channel 27 in OKC. You can enter chanel 4-1 into your tuner or 27: either one will give you KFOR-DT.

Most digital tuners will tell you that you need to 'scan' for digital stations when you first set them up. What the tuner is actually doing is making the association between the analog channel number and it's digital counterpart. If you know the actual channel number of the digital station you are looking for, you can manually enter it at any time into the remote control's keypad, and it will take you to that station.

I hope this little discussion helped you understand what is going on.It's not as diffiauclt as all of that...but a little information will make you a lot less frustrated when looking for your digital stations. Good Luck!

Diogenes · 01-26-2006, 08:32 AM

Steve Goss, given your situation, you really should try attic mounting a good antenna/preamp combination, as has been noted make sure it is a UHF/VHF preamp, not UHF only. Attic mounts are not as good as roof mounts, but may be much easier for you. How far are you away from KOCO? What are you using for the ATSC (digital) tuner? Is it built in to the SAMSUNG DLP or do you have a separate dedicated ATSC set top box(STB) tuner. STB tuners usually require you to do an initial scan for digital channels, did you try that with the rabbit ears? Also make sure any coax you run is RG-6 not RG-59 (less loss).

Tigerbangs, that link is neat, can you post the link to the query page that takes you to that map?

Cornhustler · 01-26-2006, 09:59 AM

Diogenes

On the map page, scroll down, look inside the box and click

Detailed Record for this map All current records for KOCO-TV

then if you want to find data for any station....

Scroll to the bottom of that page and click

Return to TV Query Data Entry screen

Steve Goss · 01-30-2006, 10:50 AM

Guys --

Thank you all so much for your willingness to help out me -- and all the other newbies who seem to repeatedly ask you the same questions over and over.

BTW Diogenes, I mounted an attic antenna, installed an amplifier, and my Samsung has a built-in ATSC tuner. I am about 28 miles from the transmitters. I'll post the details, and ask a few questions, in another post...

Thanks,

Steve

Diogenes · 01-31-2006, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Goss

Guys --

Thank you all so much for your willingness to help out me -- and all the other newbies who seem to repeatedly ask you the same questions over and over.

BTW Diogenes, I mounted an attic antenna, installed an amplifier, and my Samsung has a built-in ATSC tuner. I am about 28 miles from the transmitters. I'll post the details, and ask a few questions, in another post...

Thanks,

Steve

Let us know what make/model antenna you have too. GOOD LUCK

Steve Goss · 02-02-2006, 02:47 PM

Diogenes --

So far, I've stuck with the Radio Shack VU-75XR antenna, mounted in my attic. I added a relatively weak (13 dB) Channel Master amplifier to help out with my KOCO (channel 5-1, VHF channel 7) reception, and it DID help, but I still get a few minor, brief glitches in the picture on occasion. I have ordered a stronger pre-amp (the Winegard AP 8275), and I'll see how this works. If this does not help my KOCO situation any further, I'll likely be looking at at an outdoor, roof-mounted antenna option, with greater gain.

As I've asked in previous posts, can you (or anyone else) offer any opinions as to how much luck I might have with a Winegard SS-1000 or SS-2000 mounted outside, on the roof? I would assume that the gain with this antenna mounted outside would be greater than that I'm getting from the VU-75 mounted inside, wouldn't it? Slightly more gain would likely fix my problem completely, no? This would be my next step, I think -- to avoid the "unsighliness" of a larger antenna for HOA reasons, and to simplify my install. If this option will not work, then I guess I'll be moving on to Tigerbangs' original suggestion -- the CM-4228, and my soon-to-arrive Winegard amp. As I've said, I'm sure this solution will be the best, in terms of good reception (disregarding the other ancillary issues). Anyway, any opinions on what my luck might be with the Winegard Square Shooters?

Tigerbangs -- if you are reading this...will the CM 4228 do OK receiving VHF KOCO (channel 5-1/VHF 7?) I remember seeing that the 4228 is a UHF antenna, but recall you saying something about the idea that it will do a decent job pulling VHF 7, right?

Thanks,

Steve

tigerbangs · 02-02-2006, 03:15 PM

Steve, you'll find that the Squareshooter is almost useless for VHF channels, and yes, the 4228 should be just fine picking up the digital signal on channel 7: I have picked up a good analog signal on channel 7 using a 4228 at a distance of 60 miles, so I feel fairly confident that you won't have much trouble with the 4228 where you are. I have to tell you, though, that the 4228 absolutely SUCKS when installed in the attic. The difference you'll see when the 4228 is roof-mounted and properly aimed will knock your socks off! If you do finally get one, and I am sure you will

, don't judge it's performance by trying what you are doing in the attic, or you'll be disappointed.

Steve Goss · 02-03-2006, 02:50 PM

Tigerbangs --

If I end up going that route (getting the 4228 -- which as you say I probably will eventually), never fear -- I will not be trying to mount it in the attic.

01-26-2006, 03:17 AM	#1
Steve Goss HDTV Newbie Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 18	Tigerbangs/everyone -- further antenna /OTA HD reception questions (long post!) Gentlemen -- Thank you all so much for your replies on my previous post. Tigerbangs, I thank you for confirming my suspicions that the Radio Shack guy was wrong. I even, in the store, took him to the antennaweb web site, showed him the "VHF" designation on KOCO's digital broadcast, to which he told me something about how that although this might be true of KOCO's digital broadcast, their HD broadcast would most certainly be a UHF frequency. I tried to tell him that to the best of my knowledge, KOCO's digital broadcast is broadcast in 720p -- thus making it HD. He said "no, digital broadcasts and HD broadcasts are not the same thing." I said "all HD broadcasts are digital, but not all digital broadcasts are HD -- but in this case, it seems to me that KOCO's digital broadcast is in fact HD, AND VHF, right?" He said no. I gave up and just told him I'd try the small version of their UHF/VHF/FM combo. He said if that didn't work, I could take it back and try the next bigger size, or the UHF antenna he suggested. Anyway, here is the issue. I am a huge football fan. Part of the reason I jumped on the HD bandwagon in this relatively early stage of HD broadcasting is that I want to watch football in HD. A few friends I know have it, and have had me over for games. I am amazed by the difference . So, to make a long story short, I decided to purchase now, instead of later, specifically because my team made the Super Bowl. Which brings me to the issue I want to discuss. The Super Bowl is being broadcast in HD on ABC. Well, of course, the local ABC affiliate is KOCO -- the station in question. Now, from what I understand, this issue is complicated. KOCO is channel 5, but as you point out, the HD broadcast is indeed on channel 7 (7.1). (By the way, does 7.1 and 7-1 mean the same thing? My Samsung DLP does not have the ability to punch in 7.1 -- you have to punch in 7-1.) Anyway, several folks here in town have told me that they have no trouble getting all the other HD OTA broadcasts, but they struggle to get KOCO's HD. Apparently, from what I can tell after asking some questions, the issue is that Lawton, OK (about 80 miles SSW of OKC) has an ABC affiliate which just happens to broadcast its normal NTSC broadcast on channel 7. And apparently somehow, KOCO's HD broadcast was interfering with the Lawton viewing area's reception of Lawton's ABC station. So, if I understand correctly, KOCO has reduced the power of their HD broadcast. If I'm not mistaken, they apparently have only weakened this signal in the SW direction, though. Does this make any sense? Is this possible? Anyway, the folks I know who have HD (and who have struggled to receive the KOCO OTA HD broadcast) live slightly west of south of the KOCO transmitter, roughtly along the Oklahoma City to Lawton radial. I however live about 10 miles east of these folks, putting me SSE of the transmitter (antenna web says that for my street address, I need to aim my antenna in the 335 to 338 degree direction). Thus, I am HOPING that, if all of this is correct, that the KOCO HD broadcast signal strength may be stronger in my direction, and that I'll have more luck getting KOCO HD. Having said all of this, here is my issue. I ran a coaxial cable from my attic to the TV set today. I hooked it up to the TV, and just briefly hooked up some rabbit ears in my attic. I could see all of the VHF stations analog broadcasts (didn't try the UHF stations), but each station had varying degrees of "snowiness." Some were decent, some were not too good at all. Obviously, no digital or HD signals could be received at all. I have not hooked up the radio shack antenna yet. However, based on all the info I've received here in this forum, and the performance of the rabbit ears, I have my doubts whether this OR the bigger Radio Shack antenna will work. I'll try these options, and presuming they won't work, I guess it's time to try the roof option (imagine that). Now, tigerbangs, I know you told me about the channel master 4228. I also read your "prescription for deep fringe reception" sticky, where I sense your frustration with people trying to "modify" your suggestions for various reasons -- instead of just doing things the way you advise. However, please allow me a chance to ask you for some alternatives. I checked online last night, and to get the 4228 plus the 7777 preamp, I'm in the $150 to $200 range. Further, to do the install properly, considering the steep roof I have, I'd have to hire someone (more $), and the mast would have to be QUITE HIGH off the ground, to achieve the apparently ideal "5-10 feet above the roof line" situation. Now, not only does this sound quite expensive, but we are also looking at the fact that Oklahoma is QUITE windy, and experiences alot of severe thunderstorms, thus making this installation even more difficult and costly. After spending all the money on an HDTV just 2 days ago, I can't justify sinking another $500 or so into antenna/install at this time -- just to get the HD version of a couple of stations to watch a few football games a year, stations that I already get digitally through satellite. SO, having said all that -- I have come up with one option which I want to get your opinion on. I have a "dormer" which sticks out of our roof -- off the back side of our house. If you don't know what a dormer is, think of a cape cod-style house. The two windows which stick out of the roof above the porch are set within dormers. Anyway, this dormer is aligned roughly WNW. Now, someone, somewhere in this forum nentioned a "Square Shooter" antenna by Winegard. What I would like to do is to try this antenna, and mount it on the north-facing vertical side of the dormer, where I could turn it such that it would have a perfectly clear view to the NNW toward the Oklahoma City antenna farm. Do I have any hope with this solution? I read some reviews and some information about the sharp shooter, and it appers that it is much better for UHF, stinks for VHF channels 2-6, but improves from 7 on up in the VHF range. Is this true? If so, I might have some hope with this setup for channel 7 (the rest being UHF and probably not a problem to receive) -- should I try it? If so, any suggestions as to how to optimize the setup? I just think that for Homeowner's association issues, for cost reasons (I can install this myself), etc., this setup would work for me easier than your initial suggestion. Also, if I go this route, should I consider the 2000 versus the 1000 model, the 2000 having the amp? Finally, can you please fill me in on how to read the tech specs? For channel 7 (KOCO) for example, I see these Square Shooter specs: 95 degree beam width at half power points, 6.0 dB front to back ratio, and I also see a circular, gridded "compass" looking chart, which shows a "polar pattern" skewed 45 degress to the left of "0," towards 315 degress -- which I assume is with respect to the radial between one's location and the transmitter (which would be the 0 radial -- correct?). Anyway, these specs are completely greek to me. What does "beam width at half power points" tell me? What is a "front to back ratio," and what does 6.0 dB mean in a relative sense (is this high or low or good or bad or what?) What does this compass grid diagram and the overlaid pattern show me, with respect to this antenna's performance for channel 7? Can you explain any of this to me? More importantly, does this info tell you anything about if/how I might be able to use this antenna in my specific situation? Finally, one last question (I promise -- only one more, for now!!) -- I have always been of the mindset that VHF means channels 2-13, and UHF is 14 and above. However, as we've discussed, only channel 7.1 (KOCO's digital) is VHF. All the other digital broadcasts from Oklahoma City appear to be UHF. How can channel 4.1, and channel 9.1, the digital versions of our local NBC and CBS, be considered "UHF." More importantly, how can I relate this to antenna reception? In other words, if I buy a UHF antenna, which says "for channels 14 and up," do I assume this antenna to be appropriate for channel 4.1 because 4.1 is UHF according to antennaweb, OR, is it inappropriate, since channel 4.1 is not within the "channels 14 and up" range? I am SO confused! Thank you so much for your time, and please forgive my long-windedness and all my questions. I just really want to understand this. Steve (trying to become less of a "newbie," one question at a time! ) P.S. I will probably be away from the computer through the weekend, so I may not have a chance to check this forum until Monday. So for any answers I might get to these questions, I may not be able to read them until then. Thanks! Last edited by Steve Goss; 01-26-2006 at 03:33 AM.

01-26-2006, 05:46 AM	#2
maicaw Crabtree's Bludgeon Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,001	When our only PBS station was Channel 7 35 miles away - I bought a 10 element Channel 7 yagi and had good results getting that channel with it -- don't know whether you can still buy single channel VHF yagi's- they weren't any more expensive than Radio Schack at that time - but I could send you mine - its' showing 20 years weathering - but still works As Far As I Can Tell - of course they aren't small - about 7' long and 2½' wide __________________ --------------signature ------- My HDTV equipment is certified organic - mostly plastic No genetically modified electrons or photons are used in it's operation RocketMan -- Tambourine Man -- Lucy {userName=1},{P/w=1}

01-26-2006, 06:37 AM	#3
Rick0725 Antennas by Committee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Clay, New York Posts: 1,558	From what I have been reading...Your issue is ...."I just want an antenna so I can enjoy my new TV watching the superbowl in HD and I do not want to spend alot of money and can not justify it right now (since I spent so much on the new TV.) This is putting alot of stress on me because I have to do something real fast since the game is only a few weeks away. Let me help you put it into perspective. Your market has low channel vhf...you have other tv's in the house that are not digital and it would be nice to get get analog on those during the transition to 2009...you are 25-30 miles from the towers...there are some digital in the red zone..most of stations are in one direction... gets windy there...have second thoughts of putting an antenna outside...dont want to spend alot of money...may need to spend more money for installation...not sure if the antenna will work in the attic...but that is his direction ...wants an inexpensive alternative so he can watch the supperbowl in a few weeks in the interim. I have to go to work right now...let's try to help this gentleman out. I will give it some thought and post later. First thought...return the radio shack small antenna ..leaning toward the winegard HD7084P. as opposed to the cm-4228 right now...even though its a less expensive alternative...thinking long term and one time solution with no reworks later. Visited Okahoma city a few years ago doing some consulting work...experienced one of those storms you are thinking about...skies get real dark...real windy...nasty. Rick Last edited by Rick0725; 01-26-2006 at 06:59 AM.

01-26-2006, 07:53 AM	#4
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 2,116	It's been proven that a VHF digital station and an analog station can co-exist on the same channel without much of a problem. We have a situation here in Connecticut much like that. WTXX-DT operates on channel 12 here in Hartford, and 20 miles away, Connecticut Public Television operates a low-power translator in Waterbury on channel 12. We haven't heard any complaints from people saying that either channel interfered with the iother: people in Waterbury who have digital tuners get WTX-DT, and people with analog tuners get CPTV iwithout complaints. Having said that, what is the right antenna for you? Well, KOCO shuldn't be a problem for you with the right antenna. Here is an FCC map of their coverage area: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT579517.html With a good antenna, you shouldn't ghave any trouble with their signal. It's true that the Channel Master 4228 will pick up VHF channels 7-13: it is fairly good at it, but not as good as a fringe-area all-channel antenna. The trade-off here is that the 4228 is a relatively compact antenna and the Winegard HD7084p is quite large, and better than twice the money. Will you have a problem getting KOCO-DT with a Channel Master 4228? No, I don't think you will, although a Winegard HD7084p will do it better, as will a Channel Master Crossfire 3671 or a Wade-Delhi VU-935SR. All of the antennas I mentioned are longer than 11' in length, and are not exactly a low-profile design. They work well, but their UHF reception isn't as good as what you'd get from a Channel Master 4228, but any of them will do what you need them to do in your situation. If you have any need for analog reception to feed the other TV sets in your house, the all-channel antennas are a better choice for you, since you have a couple of low-band VHF analog channels in OKC. The channels that you see like 7-1 or 4-1 are actually virtual channels: they were meant to uncomplicate the transition from analog broadcasting to digital broadcasting. Essentially, a virtual channel uses the identity of the analog channel to identify the digital channel: for example: KOCO operates on channel 5 analog in OKC: It's been there on channel 5 for a million years, and everyone knows that when they se channel 5, they are going to see KOCO and ABC broadcasting. KOCO-DT operates on channel 7. The broadcasters and the FCC thought that viewers would have problems figuring out that channel 7 digital was actually KOCO, so the devised a scheme to allow your digital tuner to identify the station by it's original analog channel number. Hence channel 5-1 is actially channel 7, but your tuner is making an association for you to help iidentify KOCO. This process has proved more confusing for most people than anyonbe realized. Some broadcasters have a hard time maintaining the digital data stream that provides that identifying link, and many people buy TV sets that they believe will tune digital stations, only to find out that the channel 5 that they are watching is analog instead of digital. It's a mess in many places, and the vitrual channel identification scheme may well be more trouble than it's worth...LOL If you are having an issue finding out which actual channels are digital in your area, antennaweb.org will tell you that. For example, KFOR-DT is on channel 27 in OKC. You can enter chanel 4-1 into your tuner or 27: either one will give you KFOR-DT. Most digital tuners will tell you that you need to 'scan' for digital stations when you first set them up. What the tuner is actually doing is making the association between the analog channel number and it's digital counterpart. If you know the actual channel number of the digital station you are looking for, you can manually enter it at any time into the remote control's keypad, and it will take you to that station. I hope this little discussion helped you understand what is going on.It's not as diffiauclt as all of that...but a little information will make you a lot less frustrated when looking for your digital stations. Good Luck! __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women! Last edited by tigerbangs; 01-26-2006 at 07:59 AM.

01-30-2006, 10:50 AM	#7
Steve Goss HDTV Newbie Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 18	Thanks everyone -- I'll post updated info/question in new thread... Guys -- Thank you all so much for your willingness to help out me -- and all the other newbies who seem to repeatedly ask you the same questions over and over. BTW Diogenes, I mounted an attic antenna, installed an amplifier, and my Samsung has a built-in ATSC tuner. I am about 28 miles from the transmitters. I'll post the details, and ask a few questions, in another post... Thanks, Steve

01-26-2006, 08:32 AM	#5
Diogenes High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 596	Steve Goss, given your situation, you really should try attic mounting a good antenna/preamp combination, as has been noted make sure it is a UHF/VHF preamp, not UHF only. Attic mounts are not as good as roof mounts, but may be much easier for you. How far are you away from KOCO? What are you using for the ATSC (digital) tuner? Is it built in to the SAMSUNG DLP or do you have a separate dedicated ATSC set top box(STB) tuner. STB tuners usually require you to do an initial scan for digital channels, did you try that with the rabbit ears? Also make sure any coax you run is RG-6 not RG-59 (less loss). Tigerbangs, that link is neat, can you post the link to the query page that takes you to that map?

01-26-2006, 09:59 AM	#6
Cornhustler Husker Addict Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kearney Posts: 3	Diogenes On the map page, scroll down, look inside the box and click Detailed Record for this map All current records for KOCO-TV then if you want to find data for any station.... Scroll to the bottom of that page and click Return to TV Query Data Entry screen

02-02-2006, 02:47 PM	#9
Steve Goss HDTV Newbie Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 18	antenna/amp details... Diogenes -- So far, I've stuck with the Radio Shack VU-75XR antenna, mounted in my attic. I added a relatively weak (13 dB) Channel Master amplifier to help out with my KOCO (channel 5-1, VHF channel 7) reception, and it DID help, but I still get a few minor, brief glitches in the picture on occasion. I have ordered a stronger pre-amp (the Winegard AP 8275), and I'll see how this works. If this does not help my KOCO situation any further, I'll likely be looking at at an outdoor, roof-mounted antenna option, with greater gain. As I've asked in previous posts, can you (or anyone else) offer any opinions as to how much luck I might have with a Winegard SS-1000 or SS-2000 mounted outside, on the roof? I would assume that the gain with this antenna mounted outside would be greater than that I'm getting from the VU-75 mounted inside, wouldn't it? Slightly more gain would likely fix my problem completely, no? This would be my next step, I think -- to avoid the "unsighliness" of a larger antenna for HOA reasons, and to simplify my install. If this option will not work, then I guess I'll be moving on to Tigerbangs' original suggestion -- the CM-4228, and my soon-to-arrive Winegard amp. As I've said, I'm sure this solution will be the best, in terms of good reception (disregarding the other ancillary issues). Anyway, any opinions on what my luck might be with the Winegard Square Shooters? Tigerbangs -- if you are reading this...will the CM 4228 do OK receiving VHF KOCO (channel 5-1/VHF 7?) I remember seeing that the 4228 is a UHF antenna, but recall you saying something about the idea that it will do a decent job pulling VHF 7, right? Thanks, Steve

02-02-2006, 03:15 PM	#10
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 2,116	Steve, you'll find that the Squareshooter is almost useless for VHF channels, and yes, the 4228 should be just fine picking up the digital signal on channel 7: I have picked up a good analog signal on channel 7 using a 4228 at a distance of 60 miles, so I feel fairly confident that you won't have much trouble with the 4228 where you are. I have to tell you, though, that the 4228 absolutely SUCKS when installed in the attic. The difference you'll see when the 4228 is roof-mounted and properly aimed will knock your socks off! If you do finally get one, and I am sure you will , don't judge it's performance by trying what you are doing in the attic, or you'll be disappointed. __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

02-03-2006, 02:50 PM	#11
Steve Goss HDTV Newbie Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 18	about the 4228... Tigerbangs -- If I end up going that route (getting the 4228 -- which as you say I probably will eventually), never fear -- I will not be trying to mount it in the attic.