tigerbangs prescription for deep fringe reception

crabbybob · 11-19-2006, 02:40 AM

Hi,

The ZIP code is 01440 which is kind of a shetchy area. antennaweb.org shows that I should only get a few stations but I get more than what they list. With the RS I get some uhf channels that are not on the list. Channel 25, Fox, out of Boston is not great but most of the time it's watchable. Channel 19, I think it's WJAR out of providence comes in pretty well. Channel 28, WLWC, which I think comes out of Providence is very clear. The only one I get with the 4228 is 19 and it's not watchable. I can pick up 5 or 6 other uhf stations with the RS but they're not watchable. They don't come in at all with the 4228.

With the RS connected to the digital tuner I can pick up WJAR-DT and DX channels 10-1 and 10-2, WCDC-HD and SD channels 19-1 and -2, WLWC-DT channel 28-1, Univision channel 27-1, and WNAC-HD and DX channels 64-1 and 64-1. The problem is they drop out a lot. With the CM 4228 I can get a solid signal on WNAC-HD and Univision but the signal on the others is too weak for the tuner to lock.

I've attached the atennaweb results. I get all the channels listed except channel 3. There's a picture but it's not watchable. The others are watchable. I figured I'd loose the vhf stations with the 4228 that's why I moved the RS rather than take it down. The 4228 is on the west side of the house where the RS used to be and the RS is on the north side. They're maybe about 10 to 15 feet apart and the 4228 is about 26 feet high. The RS is about 24 feet high. It's a small house.

I'm wondering if the balun might be bad. It's the one that came with the unit. Does anyone know if CM has had trouble with them?

Thanks,
bob

blue - uhf WCDC 19 ABC ADAMS MA 289° 59.1 19
blue - uhf WYDN 48 DAY WORCESTER MA 178° 20.0 48
blue - uhf WUNI 27 UNI WORCESTER MA 153° 22.6 27
violet - vhf WCVB 5 ABC BOSTON MA 130° 43.5 5
violet - vhf WBZ 4 CBS BOSTON MA 130° 43.5 4
violet - vhf WFSB 3 CBS HARTFORD CT 231° 69.0 3
violet - vhf WGBH 2 PBS BOSTON MA 130° 43.5 2
violet - uhf WUTF 66 TFA MARLBOROUGH MA 132° 29.6 66

Tower Guy · 11-19-2006, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crabbybob

Hi,

I've been using a Radio Shack vu190 for the past few months and was getting good results so I decided to add a digital tuner. The tuner is able to pick up 4 stations, depending on the weather, and I figured I'd add a CM 4228 to see if I could get consistent lock on any of them. So I ordered one and installed it today and am somewhat dissapointed with the results. I can't get any watchable analog channels and only 1 digital channel locks on.

Are you using a rotator?

crabbybob · 11-19-2006, 07:56 AM

Sorry I should have mentioned that I am using a rotator. I've tried searching for channels in 20 degree increments.

thanks for the follow-up.

bob

jim5506 · 11-19-2006, 10:52 PM

Your nearest digitals are out of Boston, about 40 miles at 130 degrees (SE). All the stations you listed are analog. you appear to have a terrain problem. If you input your address on antennaweb.org and use theoptions at the bottom of the page to tell it your antenna is on a 500 ft tower you get a scad of yellow digitals.

My recommendation is that you get a better pre-amplifier. I assume tha Wal-Mart amplifier is an indoor one. Get a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp and it is mounted at the antenna (minimizing cable losses) and has a low noise level.

The 4228 is one of the best UHF antennas and if it plus the CM7777 cannot draw in signal for you then either give up or jump to a more expensive level by using a vertical stack of two Antennas Direct 91-XG with two CM7777 preamps (about $300).

crabbybob · 11-20-2006, 07:13 AM

Thanks for the tips Jim. I think your right, terrain is an issue. What I don't understand is why does the 4228 not work as well as the RS vu-190 it replaced? The RS was able to intermittently get several HD channels the CM only gets 1 but it's pretty solid. The RS got several uhf channels not listed in the antennaweb report. The CM doesn't get them. It gets 1 HD and 1 unwatchable channel. The rest of the uhf channels are just snow. It's installed at the same height in the same spot with the same amplifier and cable that the RS was using.

I took down the CM yesterday and don't see any visible damage. I haven't tried a new balun yet but will give it a shot.

Everything I've read indicates the CM is about the best uhf antenna you can get but in my case it's uhf performance doesn't come close to that of the RS vu-190. The only things I can think of are either my anetnna is defective or there's something about the directionality of the vu-190 design that make that type of antenna the only choice. The other thing I don't understand is why, since it doesn't perform as well on the other uhf channels, does the CM work so well with the 1 uhf channel it does get?

tigerbangs · 11-23-2006, 08:29 PM

You have some kind of problem, either with the bauln or with a bad piece of cable connected to the 4228. Jim is absolutely right about the preamp, though: cheap preamps have noise floors that are just too high for decent reception on weak digital stations. Replace your bauln and cable, and get yourself either a Channel Master Titan 7777 or a Winegard AP-8275 preamp, and have at it again. I can get the Boston digitals with a 4228 and a Titan 7777 out as far as Jaffrey, NH, which isn't far from you, so I thinnk you have a good shot if you do it right.

chaaur · 11-24-2006, 12:30 PM

Tigerbands,
The signal strength as displayed on my Sony SXRD Antenna Diagnostics screen constantly ranges from a locked 81 to unlocked 41 this is the situation on the four major networks, the numbers listed above are NBC local channel 3.1.
I have two CM 4228 installed vertically, combined by 300 ohm to a Terrestrial Digital Pre-Amp PA-16 and RG 6 to the set. These antennas are installed 25 feet above the ground. (I have 100 feet of tower to erect to whatever height is required & a HyGain Ham IV controller and rotor to install on the tower.)
I live in a hollow in St. Albans, WV 25177, GPS N38.20.434 / W81.52.807. The view to the north & south are obstructed by mountains. The feet above MSL 707.
If you believe these antennas are adequate, what pre-amp would you suggest to combine these antennas at the mast and any other suggestions you might have. My interest is in a digital signal only.

Thank you in advance,
Charlie

chiliman · 11-24-2006, 03:49 PM

Okay, I'm usually pretty good at figuring this stuff out but please chime in with any help.

My zipcode is 20136. The signals are 29.1 miles away (abc, cbs, etc). They are in both blue and violet.

I know I can if I want or need to but I don't want to do a roof antenna. We back up to a lake and the rear of the house is very visable. I fought my last homeowners over this and I don't want to get into it again if I don't have to. I'd like to do a attic set up. I had the builder put a tube from the attic down into the basement just for the coax run.

Will the 4228 along with the 9521 rotor and 7777 pre-amp do the job? I'm happy to spend the extra cash to get it to work properly if a more detailed setup is needed.

THANKS!
Randy

jim5506 · 11-24-2006, 08:30 PM

Blue and Violet, you almost have to go outside and as high as possible.

You can try the attic install, just remember the attic install cuts signal to the antenna by half or more.

Tower Guy · 11-26-2006, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiliman

My zipcode is 20136. The signals are 29.1 miles away (abc, cbs, etc). They are in both blue and violet.

I know I can if I want or need to but I don't want to do a roof antenna.

Will the 4228 along with the 9521 rotor and 7777 pre-amp do the job? I'm happy to spend the extra cash to get it to work properly if a more detailed setup is needed.

THANKS!
Randy

Is there a location on the side of the house where you can mount the 4228? Aim it at DC and forget about the rotator. I've had the best experience with my Winegard AP-4700 preamp.

Tower Guy · 11-26-2006, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaaur

Tigerbands,
The signal strength as displayed on my Sony SXRD Antenna Diagnostics screen constantly ranges from a locked 81 to unlocked 41 this is the situation on the four major networks, the numbers listed above are NBC local channel 3.1.
I have two CM 4228 installed vertically, combined by 300 ohm to a Terrestrial Digital Pre-Amp PA-16 and RG 6 to the set. These antennas are installed 25 feet above the ground. (I have 100 feet of tower to erect to whatever height is required & a HyGain Ham IV controller and rotor to install on the tower.)
I live in a hollow in St. Albans, WV 25177, GPS N38.20.434 / W81.52.807. The view to the north & south are obstructed by mountains. The feet above MSL 707.
If you believe these antennas are adequate, what pre-amp would you suggest to combine these antennas at the mast and any other suggestions you might have. My interest is in a digital signal only.

Thank you in advance,
Charlie

The PA-16 does not indicate what its overload characteristic is. It may be overloaded, it may not be. The one preamp designed for high signal levels is the Winegard HDP-269, but I feel that your analog channels 3, 8, and 11 would tend to overload the HDP-269. I used a VHF/UHF splitter before my HDP-269 to eliminate the VHF signals, but it was no better than a Winegard AP-4700.

If you need even more overload resistance you would have to filter the lower & upper UHF channels, amplify them seperately, and recombine them in another filter. The only place that I've seen such filters in Triax in the UK.

73

crabbybob · 12-02-2006, 09:29 PM

I get 5 digital channels.

Three of them are pretty solid and the other 2 pixelate every few seconds. The solid stations are WNAC-HD from Providence RI, WLWC-DT from Providence, and WCDC-HD from Adams MA. The two marginal channels are WBZ-DT from Boston and WJAR-DT from providence.

I'm using an AntennasDirect 10G212 mast mounted amplifier. Would the difference between the CM Titan 7777 and the 10G212 be enough to potentially reduce the dropouts to where the two intermittent channels might become watchable?

My zip is 01440, the antenna is mounted about 25 feet high, with a rotator and 50' of RG 62 running to the television.

chiliman · 12-03-2006, 09:02 AM

Thanks to for the info and suggestions in this thread. After having Fairfax Antenna (a locally recommended company) come out to my house 2 years ago and tell me they couldn't get a signal in my attic I never bothered trying again. So for a year I went without local HD stations. Then for another year I suffered with two D* boxes, one h10-250 for main viewing and an H20 for HD locals and no Tivo.

I buy the 4228 and the 7777 preamp, hook it up to the rg6 run I had the builder install from the attic to my basement and in 10 minutes of manuevering I've got everything except the local PBS station (26.1) in the 70-95 range. I'm back to tivo'd hd locals and as happy as can be.

Randy

godfreynz · 12-03-2006, 04:42 PM

Hi

Does anyone know of a company that will post a Channel Master 4228 to New Zealand.

I am 65 miles from the transmitter. The analogue UHF stations are up to 500 kwatt. The digital UHF stations are at present 200 kwatt. The VHF stations are from 60 kwatt

Cable is all new rg6 using crimped connectors and the antenna is 10 meters above ground. 3 meter mast on a two story house.

VHF analogue reception using a DY10 shown on

http://www.hillssignalmaster.co.nz/pages/HILLS_VHF.html

from a 60 kwatt transmitter unamplified is perfect.

Currently I have a long 91 element Hills UHF yagi SF91WB shown on the page below.

http://www.hillssignalmaster.co.nz/pages/HILLS_UHF.html

and Johansson amplifier

http://www.johansson.be/htmen/preampcomb.php?ref=7403

that works some of the time.

Would like to try Tigerbangs UHF prescription but have not been able to locate an online seller that will send to NZ.

The box is postable by US post, based on the information on their website but all the resellers I can find will not post.

The transmission is horizontal so the 4228 will work in NZ.

There are no similiar antenna available on the NZ market so cannot try those.

Or would a verticial stack of yagi antennas possibly work.

Thanks

Godfrey

tigerbangs · 12-03-2006, 09:58 PM

Well, now we know where Antennasdirect got their antenna designs! LOL
Those antennas are virtual clones of antennas sold here in North America by Antennasdirect. Frankly speaking, if you have the SF91WB antenna, you won't do significantly better with a 4228. You might try stacking those SF91WB antennas in a horizontal array or in a diamond-type array and see how you do. The size of the 4228 box will make shipping it to New Zeeland prohibitive: you will be able to do those SF91WB' for far less money.

11-19-2006, 10:52 PM	#109
jim5506 Yellow Submarine Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lubbock, Texas Posts: 2,404	Your nearest digitals are out of Boston, about 40 miles at 130 degrees (SE). All the stations you listed are analog. you appear to have a terrain problem. If you input your address on antennaweb.org and use theoptions at the bottom of the page to tell it your antenna is on a 500 ft tower you get a scad of yellow digitals. My recommendation is that you get a better pre-amplifier. I assume tha Wal-Mart amplifier is an indoor one. Get a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp and it is mounted at the antenna (minimizing cable losses) and has a low noise level. The 4228 is one of the best UHF antennas and if it plus the CM7777 cannot draw in signal for you then either give up or jump to a more expensive level by using a vertical stack of two Antennas Direct 91-XG with two CM7777 preamps (about $300). __________________ Programming: Dish HD Absolute with 0.01 Cinemax Displays: Sony VPH-D50Q - 7 ft on the wall; Hitachi 57R59 Receivers: DishNetwork ViP722k; DishNetwork ViP211K; DishNetwork ViP211; DishNetwork 301; 2 - TiVo Series 2's; Accurian 6000; Samsung SIR-T351; Panasonic ShowStopper 2000; ATI HDTV Wonder Dish 1000 on 110,119,129; Dish 500 on 61.5; DPP44 Sony 80GB PS3; Toshiba HD-DVD

11-23-2006, 08:29 PM	#111
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 2,101	You have some kind of problem, either with the bauln or with a bad piece of cable connected to the 4228. Jim is absolutely right about the preamp, though: cheap preamps have noise floors that are just too high for decent reception on weak digital stations. Replace your bauln and cable, and get yourself either a Channel Master Titan 7777 or a Winegard AP-8275 preamp, and have at it again. I can get the Boston digitals with a 4228 and a Titan 7777 out as far as Jaffrey, NH, which isn't far from you, so I thinnk you have a good shot if you do it right. __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

11-24-2006, 12:30 PM	#112
chaaur What is HD? Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 2	Antenna & Signal Issues Tigerbands, The signal strength as displayed on my Sony SXRD Antenna Diagnostics screen constantly ranges from a locked 81 to unlocked 41 this is the situation on the four major networks, the numbers listed above are NBC local channel 3.1. I have two CM 4228 installed vertically, combined by 300 ohm to a Terrestrial Digital Pre-Amp PA-16 and RG 6 to the set. These antennas are installed 25 feet above the ground. (I have 100 feet of tower to erect to whatever height is required & a HyGain Ham IV controller and rotor to install on the tower.) I live in a hollow in St. Albans, WV 25177, GPS N38.20.434 / W81.52.807. The view to the north & south are obstructed by mountains. The feet above MSL 707. If you believe these antennas are adequate, what pre-amp would you suggest to combine these antennas at the mast and any other suggestions you might have. My interest is in a digital signal only. Thank you in advance, Charlie

11-24-2006, 08:30 PM	#114
jim5506 Yellow Submarine Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lubbock, Texas Posts: 2,404	Blue and Violet, you almost have to go outside and as high as possible. You can try the attic install, just remember the attic install cuts signal to the antenna by half or more. __________________ Programming: Dish HD Absolute with 0.01 Cinemax Displays: Sony VPH-D50Q - 7 ft on the wall; Hitachi 57R59 Receivers: DishNetwork ViP722k; DishNetwork ViP211K; DishNetwork ViP211; DishNetwork 301; 2 - TiVo Series 2's; Accurian 6000; Samsung SIR-T351; Panasonic ShowStopper 2000; ATI HDTV Wonder Dish 1000 on 110,119,129; Dish 500 on 61.5; DPP44 Sony 80GB PS3; Toshiba HD-DVD

12-03-2006, 04:42 PM	#119
godfreynz What is HD? Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 2	CM 4228 Export Hi Does anyone know of a company that will post a Channel Master 4228 to New Zealand. I am 65 miles from the transmitter. The analogue UHF stations are up to 500 kwatt. The digital UHF stations are at present 200 kwatt. The VHF stations are from 60 kwatt Cable is all new rg6 using crimped connectors and the antenna is 10 meters above ground. 3 meter mast on a two story house. VHF analogue reception using a DY10 shown on http://www.hillssignalmaster.co.nz/pages/HILLS_VHF.html from a 60 kwatt transmitter unamplified is perfect. Currently I have a long 91 element Hills UHF yagi SF91WB shown on the page below. http://www.hillssignalmaster.co.nz/pages/HILLS_UHF.html and Johansson amplifier http://www.johansson.be/htmen/preampcomb.php?ref=7403 that works some of the time. Would like to try Tigerbangs UHF prescription but have not been able to locate an online seller that will send to NZ. The box is postable by US post, based on the information on their website but all the resellers I can find will not post. The transmission is horizontal so the 4228 will work in NZ. There are no similiar antenna available on the NZ market so cannot try those. Or would a verticial stack of yagi antennas possibly work. Thanks Godfrey

11-19-2006, 02:40 AM	#106
crabbybob A couch and an HDTV to go please. Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12	Hi, The ZIP code is 01440 which is kind of a shetchy area. antennaweb.org shows that I should only get a few stations but I get more than what they list. With the RS I get some uhf channels that are not on the list. Channel 25, Fox, out of Boston is not great but most of the time it's watchable. Channel 19, I think it's WJAR out of providence comes in pretty well. Channel 28, WLWC, which I think comes out of Providence is very clear. The only one I get with the 4228 is 19 and it's not watchable. I can pick up 5 or 6 other uhf stations with the RS but they're not watchable. They don't come in at all with the 4228. With the RS connected to the digital tuner I can pick up WJAR-DT and DX channels 10-1 and 10-2, WCDC-HD and SD channels 19-1 and -2, WLWC-DT channel 28-1, Univision channel 27-1, and WNAC-HD and DX channels 64-1 and 64-1. The problem is they drop out a lot. With the CM 4228 I can get a solid signal on WNAC-HD and Univision but the signal on the others is too weak for the tuner to lock. I've attached the atennaweb results. I get all the channels listed except channel 3. There's a picture but it's not watchable. The others are watchable. I figured I'd loose the vhf stations with the 4228 that's why I moved the RS rather than take it down. The 4228 is on the west side of the house where the RS used to be and the RS is on the north side. They're maybe about 10 to 15 feet apart and the 4228 is about 26 feet high. The RS is about 24 feet high. It's a small house. I'm wondering if the balun might be bad. It's the one that came with the unit. Does anyone know if CM has had trouble with them? Thanks, bob blue - uhf WCDC 19 ABC ADAMS MA 289° 59.1 19 blue - uhf WYDN 48 DAY WORCESTER MA 178° 20.0 48 blue - uhf WUNI 27 UNI WORCESTER MA 153° 22.6 27 violet - vhf WCVB 5 ABC BOSTON MA 130° 43.5 5 violet - vhf WBZ 4 CBS BOSTON MA 130° 43.5 4 violet - vhf WFSB 3 CBS HARTFORD CT 231° 69.0 3 violet - vhf WGBH 2 PBS BOSTON MA 130° 43.5 2 violet - uhf WUTF 66 TFA MARLBOROUGH MA 132° 29.6 66

11-19-2006, 07:56 AM	#108
crabbybob A couch and an HDTV to go please. Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12	Sorry I should have mentioned that I am using a rotator. I've tried searching for channels in 20 degree increments. thanks for the follow-up. bob

11-20-2006, 07:13 AM	#110
crabbybob A couch and an HDTV to go please. Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12	Thanks for the tips Jim. I think your right, terrain is an issue. What I don't understand is why does the 4228 not work as well as the RS vu-190 it replaced? The RS was able to intermittently get several HD channels the CM only gets 1 but it's pretty solid. The RS got several uhf channels not listed in the antennaweb report. The CM doesn't get them. It gets 1 HD and 1 unwatchable channel. The rest of the uhf channels are just snow. It's installed at the same height in the same spot with the same amplifier and cable that the RS was using. I took down the CM yesterday and don't see any visible damage. I haven't tried a new balun yet but will give it a shot. Everything I've read indicates the CM is about the best uhf antenna you can get but in my case it's uhf performance doesn't come close to that of the RS vu-190. The only things I can think of are either my anetnna is defective or there's something about the directionality of the vu-190 design that make that type of antenna the only choice. The other thing I don't understand is why, since it doesn't perform as well on the other uhf channels, does the CM work so well with the 1 uhf channel it does get?

11-24-2006, 03:49 PM	#113
chiliman What is HD? Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4	Okay, I'm usually pretty good at figuring this stuff out but please chime in with any help. My zipcode is 20136. The signals are 29.1 miles away (abc, cbs, etc). They are in both blue and violet. I know I can if I want or need to but I don't want to do a roof antenna. We back up to a lake and the rear of the house is very visable. I fought my last homeowners over this and I don't want to get into it again if I don't have to. I'd like to do a attic set up. I had the builder put a tube from the attic down into the basement just for the coax run. Will the 4228 along with the 9521 rotor and 7777 pre-amp do the job? I'm happy to spend the extra cash to get it to work properly if a more detailed setup is needed. THANKS! Randy

12-02-2006, 09:29 PM	#117
crabbybob A couch and an HDTV to go please. Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 12	I get 5 digital channels. Three of them are pretty solid and the other 2 pixelate every few seconds. The solid stations are WNAC-HD from Providence RI, WLWC-DT from Providence, and WCDC-HD from Adams MA. The two marginal channels are WBZ-DT from Boston and WJAR-DT from providence. I'm using an AntennasDirect 10G212 mast mounted amplifier. Would the difference between the CM Titan 7777 and the 10G212 be enough to potentially reduce the dropouts to where the two intermittent channels might become watchable? My zip is 01440, the antenna is mounted about 25 feet high, with a rotator and 50' of RG 62 running to the television.

12-03-2006, 09:02 AM	#118
chiliman What is HD? Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4	Thanks to for the info and suggestions in this thread. After having Fairfax Antenna (a locally recommended company) come out to my house 2 years ago and tell me they couldn't get a signal in my attic I never bothered trying again. So for a year I went without local HD stations. Then for another year I suffered with two D* boxes, one h10-250 for main viewing and an H20 for HD locals and no Tivo. I buy the 4228 and the 7777 preamp, hook it up to the rg6 run I had the builder install from the attic to my basement and in 10 minutes of manuevering I've got everything except the local PBS station (26.1) in the 70-95 range. I'm back to tivo'd hd locals and as happy as can be. Randy

12-03-2006, 09:58 PM	#120
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 2,101	Well, now we know where Antennasdirect got their antenna designs! LOL Those antennas are virtual clones of antennas sold here in North America by Antennasdirect. Frankly speaking, if you have the SF91WB antenna, you won't do significantly better with a 4228. You might try stacking those SF91WB antennas in a horizontal array or in a diamond-type array and see how you do. The size of the 4228 box will make shipping it to New Zeeland prohibitive: you will be able to do those SF91WB' for far less money. __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!