tigerbangs prescription for deep fringe reception

Tower Guy

You won't find a credible web site to tell you how to cheat the laws of Physics. The 4228 has lousy front to back ratio on most VHF channels. A stack of UHF antennas may get you more VHF signal, but your problem is just as likely to be the poor F/B ratio.

The solution to imperfect VHF reception when using a UHF antenna is to get a real VHF antenna.

Tower Guy

That's too much gain. With the 7777 preamp, you don't need a distribution amplifier.

You also have another problem with your set-up that you'll need to troubleshoot one step at a time.

Make sure that the FM trap on the 7777 is the IN position.

waveryder

Kind of figured that with 25DB gain CH11 (15 miles away) was getting fried.

Yup the FM trap is IN (or on).

The question about the dual UHF's was for my array not the other guy who posted. I have a 1713 for VHF.

Thanks

waveryder

Just 1800 yards south of us, pretty much on the same axis as all the Newton Towers is a tall (50 meter or so) tower on the highest point of Long Hill:
Here is what is clustered on that tower

FCC Registered Broadcast Land Mobile Towers: 2

* Long Hill, Structure height: 27 m, Call Sign: KPJ393, Licensee ID: L00462320
Assigned Frequencies : 450.020 MHz
Grant Date: 11/27/1990, Expiration Date: 04/01/2014
Registrant: Capstar Tx Limited Partnership, 2625 S Memorial Dr, Suite A, Tulsa, OK 74129-2623
* Long Hill, Structure height: 61 m, Call Sign: KPL294, Licensee ID: L00462320
Assigned Frequencies : 450.050 MHz
Grant Date: 10/24/1990, Expiration Date: 04/01/2014
Registrant: Capstar Tx Limited Partnership, 2625 S Memorial Dr, Suite A, Tulsa, OK 74129-2623


FCC Registered Microwave Towers: 1

* Longhill Rd, Overall height: 61 m, Call Sign: WPOQ852
Assigned Frequencies : 945.500 MHz
Grant Date: 11/25/1998, Expiration Date: 04/01/2014
Registrant: Phone: (603) 436-7300


FCC Registered Paging Towers: 3

* Long Hill, 2 Mi. East Of Stratham, Call Sign: KNKD581
Assigned Frequencies : 43.4200 MHz
Expiration Date: 04/01/1999, Cancelation Date: 03/31/1999
Registrant: Mobilemedia Communications, Inc., Debtor-In-Possession, 2101 Wilson Boulevard, Suite 935, Arlington, VA 22201, Phone: (703) 312-5153, Fax: (703) 312-5155, Email: cpinkerton@mobilecomm.com
* Long Hill, 2 Miles East Of Stratham, Call Sign: KCI295
Assigned Frequencies : 43.2200 MHz
Grant Date: 05/11/1999, Expiration Date: 04/01/2009, Cancelation Date: 12/02/2003, Certifier: Paul H Kuzia
Registrant: Wilkinson Barker Knauer, LLP, 2300 N Street, N.W., 7th Floor, Washington, DC 20037, Phone: (202) 783-4141, Fax: (202) 783-5851, Email: kzachem@wbklaw.com


Read more: http://www.city-data.com/city/Strath...#ixzz0Vis1dJ8e

Not sure but it is just across a little valley from our neighborhood.

Tower Guy

These licenses are clues that there is a high power FM station at that location. The FM station is more likely to cause a TV reception problem than the other transmitters.

bsi87

I'd appreciate any insight, I'm casting about for some answers.

Location 40 degrees 15' 40.85" N, 84 degrees 11' 56.58" W
Elevation 1013

I have 2 antennas. The first is on a tower with the antenna elevation about 43.5 feet above the ground with a rotor. The antenna itself is an old Channel Master with about 42 elements. All the elements are in a flat plane, no "V" antenna booms. This one has a preamp (I think) mounted just below the antenna.

The 2nd is mounted on a tripod on the roof, about 22' above the ground. It is a Yagi style antenna with about 36 elements mounted along the boom and another 16 or so on the V shape boom. I don't have a pre amp mounted on it.

I bought the Yagi and tripod because I was tired of having to rotate the tower antenna every time a strong west wind that would knock it out of alignment plus I thought I could pick up some more stations on both. The tower obviously has no obstructions for LOS and the Yagi is positioned to avoid trees/buildings.

I get all the Dayton stations fine. TV fool shows LOS, all the Dayton stations use a tower that is about 37.5 miles. The Cincinnati stations are 2 Edge about 86 miles from me. I can get Channel 5 from Cincy and the Cincy PBS station channel 48. I can get the Dayton PBS station but not the Oxford station, channel 14, magnetic heading 199 I believe. The Dayton magnetic heading is 191, Cincy is 198.

There are a few stations in Lima which shows 2 Edge but only 34 miles with magnetic heading of 11 so it's almost opposite direction of the Dayton/Cincy stations.

I thought I could pull the Columbus stations consistently but I haven't been able to do so. They are about 80 miles with magnetic headings 102,105,114, and 116.

Here are my questions.

1) Would a preamp help the Yagi pull in the Dayton/Cincy stations? (I assume I need to bring power to the preamp).
2) With the Cincy stations being 2 Edge, would I be better off switching to an 8 bay bowtie style antenna with a pre amp? How many elements in the bowtie are needed? I see some with 12-15, others with 36.
3) If #2 is yes, do I take off a reflector or something on the back to pull in the Lima stations?
4) With the tower antenna, should I replace the old Channelmaster with an 8 bay bowtie antenna since the stations are 2 Edge?
5) After bringing the leads inside, what is the optimal setup? Use an antenna joiner, then an amplifier, then to the splitter?
6) Recommendations on equipment?

I know this is overkill but I'd like to watch different stations esp when they talk about the local sports teams, Buckeyes, Bengals, etc.


Thanks in advance.

Tower Guy

At 20': http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8adf647826c1a0

At 43' http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...8adfac42013b29

bsi87

Yup, I've studied tvfool and other antenna sites many times but they don't give me any idea of if/how I can pull 2Edge stations.

JB Antennaman

Not to step on anyone's toes here, but can I add my two cents?

One thing not listed was - do you have a antenna rotator?

If the answer is yes and you have problems with the brake holding the antenna stationary, then you just need a better rotor. If the answer is NO, then you need a antenna rotor.

TV fool report tells me that you have a gaggle of stations, with 24 stations present, I don't know when you find the time to go to sleep.

When posting - asking for advice, it would help if you were to post actual call letters and not just generalizations of stations such as PBS here or Dayton there. It makes it harder to figure out what you are talking about.

The answer is - when you don't know the actual model number of the antenna you are trying to describe to us and you make too many generalizations, the answer is to scrap everything and start with a clean slate.

Buy a XG 91 and a good VHF antenna - since you have signals all the way down to channel 8. But a small pre amplifier to compensate for the line loss - depending on your link budget and what the tuner can accept as the maximum amount of signal input vs how much it takes to overload the tuner. I would say there is about a 10 - 16 db cushion.

How many times are you going to split the signal, how many splitters you are going to put on that line, how many feet of line between the tower and the house, how many feet of wire are you going to put after the splitters to go to every room you wish to supply and that will probably allow you to scrub off 10 - 12 db with no problems.

I would say that a Channel Master 7778 pre amp or a Antenna's Direct PA 16 pre amp would probably help your cause - along with a antenna rotor.

I wouldn't go with a 8 bay bow tie antenna due to all the stations in your report and multipath that would be a killer in a city / urban setting.

http://www.afar.net/rf-link-budget-calculator/

__________________
Where is the Kaboom? There is supposed to be a earth shattering Kaboom!

jim5506

The user may or may not need a rotator.

If the 6 networks he can easily receive at 185 degrees are satisfactory then one UHF antenna without rotator will suffice.

However, if the OP is adventurous, he needs to decide if the additional cost and possible inconvenience to secondary TVs of the rotator are worth it.

__________________
Programming: Dish HD Absolute with 0.01 Cinemax
Displays: Sony VPH-D50Q - 7 ft on the wall; Hitachi 57R59
Receivers: DishNetwork ViP722k; DishNetwork ViP211K; DishNetwork ViP211; DishNetwork 301; 2 - TiVo Series 2's; Accurian 6000; Samsung SIR-T351; Panasonic ShowStopper 2000; ATI HDTV Wonder
Dish 1000 on 110,119,129; Dish 500 on 61.5; DPP44
Sony 80GB PS3; Toshiba HD-DVD

tykoto

Does anyone know if you can put two UHF antennas on the same line if you separate the frequencies you are receiving from each with a UHF trap such as the Winegard UT2700 Adjustable UHF Trap (UT-2700)?

I want to set up a 91XG to receive Knoxville stations to the south on channels 26 and below and a CM4251 to pick up Lexington stations to the north on channels 31 and above?

Is there anyway to combine them on the same coax without too much loss of signal?

Thanks in advance.

GLE3

Here’s my TV Fool: /?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dbc275c3a6df2c 8
Sorry will have to add the beginning of the address...

Elevation: 630

Zip code : 48603

Plan to mount antenna on top of two story house.


Hi, just one of the newbs here trying to get some specific HD programming in my area. I live in a township and other than an occasional 40 foot tree there isn’t much that gets in the way. I wish to get a FOX, NBC, ABC, and CBS broadcast and it looks like I won’t have a problem doing that. However I also want to get WFQX, and TV Fool implies that I may be able to do that. Would tigerbangs recommendation be the way to go or could I get the same results from a VHF/UHF combo antenna? Like a Winegard HD7698P?
Thanks in advance for any help.

Tower Guy

The difference between a HD7698P and the full Tigerbangs prescription is 1 station, WHTV.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...bc275c3a6df2c8

JB Antennaman

Well - here is the situation, we now need to know how much wire it will take to go from your antenna to your television and how many times you wished to split the signal.

The problem with your reception situation is not that you do not have enough signal for reliable reception, but that you have too much signal for reliable reception with a pre amplifier.

WNEM - channel 22 is 1000 Kw and 9 miles away, while WFQX channel 32 is 200 Kw and 67 miles away.

There is no parity between the two.

You need to remember that "All" radio frequencies reduce at the ratio of the square of the distance, that is if the distance is doubled the level is reduced to 1/4 of its level, if the distance is tripled is it reduced to 1/9.
If the distance is 5 times it is reduced 1/25.

Eventually the level is so low that it seemingly disappears in the noise.

Like a flashlight is only good for a certain distance.

If you amplify the signal for channel 32, you are also going to amplify channel 22. As others has said before, channel 22 is so strong that you could almost pick it up on a paper clip, while channel 22 is so distant that you would definitely need some sort of amplification.

__________________
Where is the Kaboom? There is supposed to be a earth shattering Kaboom!

jim5506

You could feed the unamplified channel 22 signal into a jointenna tuned for channel 22 and feed another amplified antenna through the same jointenna.

Channel 22 on the amplified leg would be blocked so it would not over drive the tuner.

__________________
Programming: Dish HD Absolute with 0.01 Cinemax
Displays: Sony VPH-D50Q - 7 ft on the wall; Hitachi 57R59
Receivers: DishNetwork ViP722k; DishNetwork ViP211K; DishNetwork ViP211; DishNetwork 301; 2 - TiVo Series 2's; Accurian 6000; Samsung SIR-T351; Panasonic ShowStopper 2000; ATI HDTV Wonder
Dish 1000 on 110,119,129; Dish 500 on 61.5; DPP44
Sony 80GB PS3; Toshiba HD-DVD