tigerbangs prescription for deep fringe reception

Alfaman · 09-22-2006, 01:36 PM

Im across the atlantic in Ireland so that information will mean nothing to you.

tigerbangs · 09-22-2006, 06:56 PM

I guess that's why we ask for zip code information ROFL! For future reference, most European transmitting antennas are vertically polarized, and on UHF, which makes our North American antennas virtually worthless over there...

Alfaman · 09-23-2006, 04:28 PM

Actually, Divis Mountain (The transmitter im trying to recive) Is Horisontaly polarised, the only one of its kind in Ireland and the British Isles, but it is on UHF. I'm currently looking at a Wade Taco Parabolic 8ft antenna http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/UHFParabolic.pdf

jim5506 · 09-24-2006, 07:27 PM

UHF transmissions do not bend over the horizon very well, over mountains even less. I'd say your chances are slim to none to receive the digital signal.

chapelrun · 09-30-2006, 07:15 PM

I live near Berryville, VA (22611) and today installed a Terrestrial Digital 91XG.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html

This has greatly improved my experience with OTA HD viewing. I connected the antenna directly to my ATI HTDV wonder with a 50' RG-6 COAX cable. I was going buy a taller mast but may not have to because most channels I want are now coming it pretty well. I do not have a pre-AMP yet but may still buy the Channel Master 7777. Lastly, I now believe I will not need to purchase anything to rotate my antenna since I'm getting most Washington DC and Baltimore HD channels.

Very Happy so far with new antenna.

chapelrun · 09-30-2006, 10:52 PM

Good Day...

Have you consider on of these?

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DAT75.html

I almost bought one but a bit too pricey. I don't know what RF Freq range most of your UHF stations are in but this might be a good choice.

Also do not discount the tigerbangs "deep fringe" solution. My brother used it here in the States are it works wonderfully.

I install a new antenna today. (See post above) Very Happy.

Can you give us a bit more detail....might help.

Rick0725 · 10-01-2006, 07:22 AM

The Televes DAT 75 performs very closely to an antennas direct 91xg. The Televes DAT 75 is rather expensive in comparison.

If you want to make a designer statement, the bright orange plastic pieces will get noticed.

Their gain charts match up very closely.

look here for the net gain charts for the uhf antennas in question.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

If you were to look at gain alone , the cm 4228 has higher net gain at the lower uhf channels and the 91xg and Televes DAT 75 has higher gain at the upper uhf channels.

The cm4228 and 91xg also perform differently since they have different antenna patterns.

The 91xg tends to have a tighter beamwith, less side lobe and higher front to back ratio making it more directional and at the same time tame multipath some.

When an obstruction is causing multi-path, a very directional antenna such as this one can reject signal from the wrong directions.

This can improve a situation if you are having difficulies with the cm4228.

Tarlyn · 10-15-2006, 11:43 PM

I live a few hours north of where all the towers are. I used antennaweb and played with the map to get the exact location as it wasn't extremely accurate. Here are the results for the main channels I would be interested in:

Zipcode - 84337

KSL-DT NBC Green-UHF 162 Degree 72.6 miles
KSL NBC Lt Green-VHF 162 72.6
KSTU FOX Lt Green-VHF 162 72.6
KTVX ABC Lt Green-VHF 161 75.8
KUTV CBS Red-VHF 161 76.4
KUTV-DT CBS Red-UHF 161 76.4

So basically it looks like I can pull everything I want with a VHF but I was thinking that UHF was the more popular one.

Can the same antenna pick up analog and digital stations as I have some of both it looks like.

I do live up on the side of a hill and have a fairly straight shot as the crow flies to those towers even though they are a few miles away.

We have no options but satellite out here and there just isnt enough on either of them to warrant making the move yet but I may go with DTV HD DVR soon.....would that be able to be used as a tuner to pull in OTA?

My 55" Mits is HDTV ready but no tuner built in.

I have read through this thread and see the standard prescription but wasnt sure if this was the "best" thing to try since most/all the stations I want are all VHF.

Also what is the difference in analog and digital.....do they both look good or?

Any help much appreciated!

texasbrit · 10-16-2006, 01:04 AM

Antennaweb is very conservative when it comes to digital stations so I input your zip code but changed the elevation to 100ft to see what happened. It showed all the digital stations except Fox. I suspect you are only going to be interested in digitals - analog stations go away in 2009 (probably) and the ATSC tuner in new DirecTV boxes only receive digitals. All HD is on digital channels.. The tuners in the new HR20 DVR are disabled right now but DirecTV is expected to release new software soon (maybe in the next month) to enable those tuners.

At your range from the transmitters you will need a deep-fringe UHF solution (all your digitals are UHF) like the CM4228 or the Antennas Direct 91XG. You will almost certainly have to order these online - the CM42298 from solid signal or warren electronics, the 91XG from antennas direct. For either antenna you will also need a preamp like the CM7775 or 7777 so check who has the best price for the complete CM package including shipping.The antenna needs to be mounted outside as high as possible for 70 mile plus reception.
If you really want the VHF analogs for the next couple of years you will have to add a deep-fringe VHF antenna - they are VERY large (up to 10 ft long).
One caveat - it's possible that some of your digital UHF stations may be moving back to VHF when analog goes away, in which case you will need a VHF antenna anyway as well as UHF. I haven't checked to see if any of your stations are moving back to VHF, maybe someone has this info to hand and can post it here.

Will these antennas work at this range?? - probably, especially if you are on a hill with line of sight to the transmitters. Many people get solid digital station reception at 70+ miles with the right antenna.

Rick0725 · 10-16-2006, 01:05 AM

it does not appear that you need the full blown solution of separate vhf and uhf antennas as mentioned in this thread.

if the antenna web results are close to being accurate, you have a few otions.

just the digital stations which are uhf - channel master cm4228 or antennas direct 91xg

both analog and digital - combo vhf/uhf antenna - winegard hd7084

FYI - The 91xg is $20 cheaper from solid signal.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=AD-91XG

Tarlyn · 10-16-2006, 01:36 AM

Great info from both of you...looks like the 4228 is quite a bit cheaper and seems to be mentioned more often so I would probably go with that.

So use that antenna with a good amp like you had said and then by then hopefully the dtv dvr receivers would be able to pull in the channels.

I do have a second tv that I use for my computer monitor that has an hdtv tuner built in that I could use if I had to but its smaller then the mits 55".

How much does a external tuner cost roughly?

Then I would need some sort of tripod and mast to anchor to the roof (no chimney).

Tarlyn · 10-16-2006, 01:41 AM

Also based on the fact that all my stations come from pretty much the exact same direction I wouldnt need any sort of rotator for moving the antenna would I?

Just tune it in and leave it I would think.

gcgst · 10-27-2006, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerbangs

As for a rotator: a Channel Master Rotator isn't beefy enough to handle a VIP-307 AND a 4228: pick up a Hy-Gain AR-40 to turn that monster,

Hi, I just started investigating the stuff and I'm a little confused. Your "prescription" calls for a VIP-306 and a 4228 with a CM rotator. Is the VIP-307 that much bigger than the 306? I tried find these specs at the Wade website, but couldn't find them. They could really use a search feature.

How about a CM 3671 and a 4228? It that combo too much for the CM rotator also?

Rick0725 · 10-27-2006, 03:12 PM

what is you zipcode

need to look at conditions before suggesting antennas, especially if you are in the deep fringe territory.

the vip antenna is in the pdf at the supplier website under paralog plus

gcgst · 10-27-2006, 04:40 PM

Thanks for the pointer. I see now that the 307 is considerably larger than the 306 (16' 2" vs. 12' 4.5") and 2 lbs. heavier. The CM 3671 is in-between at 14' 5", so guess it would be borderline to add a 4228 to the same rotator.

I ask because I have already ordered a CM3671, 7777, and 9521A. I hope it meets both my VHF and UHF needs, but I am in zipcode 27406, which is on the fringe of a lot of channels that broadcast from central North Carolina (just below Raleigh) which aren't listed on antennaweb for my location, but fall within the FCC service area contour map circles. If I can't get these fringe channels with the above equipment, I was thinking I could order a 4228 and add it to 3671, using the UHF input on the 7777. But if the 9521A can't handle both, perhaps I should cancel the 3671 order and get a smaller VHF like the 306.

09-22-2006, 01:36 PM	#76
Alfaman What is HD? Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3	Im across the atlantic in Ireland so that information will mean nothing to you. Last edited by Alfaman; 09-22-2006 at 01:41 PM.

09-22-2006, 06:56 PM	#77
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 2,115	I guess that's why we ask for zip code information ROFL! For future reference, most European transmitting antennas are vertically polarized, and on UHF, which makes our North American antennas virtually worthless over there... __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

09-23-2006, 04:28 PM	#78
Alfaman What is HD? Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3	Actually, Divis Mountain (The transmitter im trying to recive) Is Horisontaly polarised, the only one of its kind in Ireland and the British Isles, but it is on UHF. I'm currently looking at a Wade Taco Parabolic 8ft antenna http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/UHFParabolic.pdf Last edited by Alfaman; 09-23-2006 at 04:33 PM.

09-24-2006, 07:27 PM	#79
jim5506 Yellow Submarine Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lubbock, Texas Posts: 2,416	UHF transmissions do not bend over the horizon very well, over mountains even less. I'd say your chances are slim to none to receive the digital signal. __________________ Programming: Dish HD Absolute with 0.01 Cinemax Displays: Sony VPH-D50Q - 7 ft on the wall; Hitachi 57R59 Receivers: DishNetwork ViP722k; DishNetwork ViP211K; DishNetwork ViP211; DishNetwork 301; 2 - TiVo Series 2's; Accurian 6000; Samsung SIR-T351; Panasonic ShowStopper 2000; ATI HDTV Wonder Dish 1000 on 110,119,129; Dish 500 on 61.5; DPP44 Sony 80GB PS3; Toshiba HD-DVD

09-30-2006, 07:15 PM	#80
chapelrun OTA only way to go... Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Berryville, VA Posts: 7	My Antenna Update I live near Berryville, VA (22611) and today installed a Terrestrial Digital 91XG. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html This has greatly improved my experience with OTA HD viewing. I connected the antenna directly to my ATI HTDV wonder with a 50' RG-6 COAX cable. I was going buy a taller mast but may not have to because most channels I want are now coming it pretty well. I do not have a pre-AMP yet but may still buy the Channel Master 7777. Lastly, I now believe I will not need to purchase anything to rotate my antenna since I'm getting most Washington DC and Baltimore HD channels. Very Happy so far with new antenna.

09-30-2006, 10:52 PM	#81
chapelrun OTA only way to go... Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Berryville, VA Posts: 7	For Alfaman Good Day... Have you consider on of these? http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DAT75.html I almost bought one but a bit too pricey. I don't know what RF Freq range most of your UHF stations are in but this might be a good choice. Also do not discount the tigerbangs "deep fringe" solution. My brother used it here in the States are it works wonderfully. I install a new antenna today. (See post above) Very Happy. Can you give us a bit more detail....might help.

10-01-2006, 07:22 AM	#82
Rick0725 Antennas by Committee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Clay, New York Posts: 1,558	The Televes DAT 75 performs very closely to an antennas direct 91xg. The Televes DAT 75 is rather expensive in comparison. If you want to make a designer statement, the bright orange plastic pieces will get noticed. Their gain charts match up very closely. look here for the net gain charts for the uhf antennas in question. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html If you were to look at gain alone , the cm 4228 has higher net gain at the lower uhf channels and the 91xg and Televes DAT 75 has higher gain at the upper uhf channels. The cm4228 and 91xg also perform differently since they have different antenna patterns. The 91xg tends to have a tighter beamwith, less side lobe and higher front to back ratio making it more directional and at the same time tame multipath some. When an obstruction is causing multi-path, a very directional antenna such as this one can reject signal from the wrong directions. This can improve a situation if you are having difficulies with the cm4228. Last edited by Rick0725; 10-01-2006 at 07:33 AM.

10-15-2006, 11:43 PM	#83
Tarlyn What is HD? Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3	I live a few hours north of where all the towers are. I used antennaweb and played with the map to get the exact location as it wasn't extremely accurate. Here are the results for the main channels I would be interested in: Zipcode - 84337 KSL-DT NBC Green-UHF 162 Degree 72.6 miles KSL NBC Lt Green-VHF 162 72.6 KSTU FOX Lt Green-VHF 162 72.6 KTVX ABC Lt Green-VHF 161 75.8 KUTV CBS Red-VHF 161 76.4 KUTV-DT CBS Red-UHF 161 76.4 So basically it looks like I can pull everything I want with a VHF but I was thinking that UHF was the more popular one. Can the same antenna pick up analog and digital stations as I have some of both it looks like. I do live up on the side of a hill and have a fairly straight shot as the crow flies to those towers even though they are a few miles away. We have no options but satellite out here and there just isnt enough on either of them to warrant making the move yet but I may go with DTV HD DVR soon.....would that be able to be used as a tuner to pull in OTA? My 55" Mits is HDTV ready but no tuner built in. I have read through this thread and see the standard prescription but wasnt sure if this was the "best" thing to try since most/all the stations I want are all VHF. Also what is the difference in analog and digital.....do they both look good or? Any help much appreciated!

10-16-2006, 01:04 AM	#84
texasbrit High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,030	Antennaweb is very conservative when it comes to digital stations so I input your zip code but changed the elevation to 100ft to see what happened. It showed all the digital stations except Fox. I suspect you are only going to be interested in digitals - analog stations go away in 2009 (probably) and the ATSC tuner in new DirecTV boxes only receive digitals. All HD is on digital channels.. The tuners in the new HR20 DVR are disabled right now but DirecTV is expected to release new software soon (maybe in the next month) to enable those tuners. At your range from the transmitters you will need a deep-fringe UHF solution (all your digitals are UHF) like the CM4228 or the Antennas Direct 91XG. You will almost certainly have to order these online - the CM42298 from solid signal or warren electronics, the 91XG from antennas direct. For either antenna you will also need a preamp like the CM7775 or 7777 so check who has the best price for the complete CM package including shipping.The antenna needs to be mounted outside as high as possible for 70 mile plus reception. If you really want the VHF analogs for the next couple of years you will have to add a deep-fringe VHF antenna - they are VERY large (up to 10 ft long). One caveat - it's possible that some of your digital UHF stations may be moving back to VHF when analog goes away, in which case you will need a VHF antenna anyway as well as UHF. I haven't checked to see if any of your stations are moving back to VHF, maybe someone has this info to hand and can post it here. Will these antennas work at this range?? - probably, especially if you are on a hill with line of sight to the transmitters. Many people get solid digital station reception at 70+ miles with the right antenna.

10-16-2006, 01:05 AM	#85
Rick0725 Antennas by Committee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Clay, New York Posts: 1,558	it does not appear that you need the full blown solution of separate vhf and uhf antennas as mentioned in this thread. if the antenna web results are close to being accurate, you have a few otions. just the digital stations which are uhf - channel master cm4228 or antennas direct 91xg both analog and digital - combo vhf/uhf antenna - winegard hd7084 FYI - The 91xg is $20 cheaper from solid signal. http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_disp...p?prod=AD-91XG Last edited by Rick0725; 10-16-2006 at 01:17 AM.

10-16-2006, 01:36 AM	#86
Tarlyn What is HD? Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3	Great info from both of you...looks like the 4228 is quite a bit cheaper and seems to be mentioned more often so I would probably go with that. So use that antenna with a good amp like you had said and then by then hopefully the dtv dvr receivers would be able to pull in the channels. I do have a second tv that I use for my computer monitor that has an hdtv tuner built in that I could use if I had to but its smaller then the mits 55". How much does a external tuner cost roughly? Then I would need some sort of tripod and mast to anchor to the roof (no chimney).

10-16-2006, 01:41 AM	#87
Tarlyn What is HD? Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 3	Also based on the fact that all my stations come from pretty much the exact same direction I wouldnt need any sort of rotator for moving the antenna would I? Just tune it in and leave it I would think.

10-27-2006, 03:12 PM	#89
Rick0725 Antennas by Committee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Clay, New York Posts: 1,558	what is you zipcode need to look at conditions before suggesting antennas, especially if you are in the deep fringe territory. the vip antenna is in the pdf at the supplier website under paralog plus Last edited by Rick0725; 10-27-2006 at 03:19 PM.

10-27-2006, 04:40 PM	#90
gcgst My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 7	Thanks for the pointer. I see now that the 307 is considerably larger than the 306 (16' 2" vs. 12' 4.5") and 2 lbs. heavier. The CM 3671 is in-between at 14' 5", so guess it would be borderline to add a 4228 to the same rotator. I ask because I have already ordered a CM3671, 7777, and 9521A. I hope it meets both my VHF and UHF needs, but I am in zipcode 27406, which is on the fringe of a lot of channels that broadcast from central North Carolina (just below Raleigh) which aren't listed on antennaweb for my location, but fall within the FCC service area contour map circles. If I can't get these fringe channels with the above equipment, I was thinking I could order a 4228 and add it to 3671, using the UHF input on the 7777. But if the 9521A can't handle both, perhaps I should cancel the 3671 order and get a smaller VHF like the 306.

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