tigerbangs prescription for deep fringe reception

tigerbangs · 12-03-2008, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbuckner

Tiger,

I'm ready to buy the deep fringe prescription. Just a couple of questions first.

1. To receive only digital are both antennas required, and if not which one for digital?

2. If only one antenna is required do I still use Channel Master Titan 7777 preamp

3. Where is the best online source for the required components?

Thanks for sharing your expertise

Where are you, and what are you trying to get?

TV Tech · 12-08-2008, 07:53 PM

The ChannelMaster 4228 is a good antenna but ONLY if fed with 300 ohm twinlead.
If you use a 4 to 1 balun to feed it into the preamp you are losing at LEAST 2 db and in some cases 3 or 4 so you are defeating the whole purpose if you don't use a preamp with a 300 ohm input.
And this antenna design is nearly bi-directional due to their poor F/B ratio.

For simplicity, the Winegard HD-7698 or HD-8200 with the Winegard AP-8700 preamp will do VERY well in the deep fringe areas and even the HD-7084 VHF/UHF antenna produces flawless pictures for many of my customers and sells for about $89 dollars.

When I get a customer who wants the max performance available with separate antennas, I use the Winegard HD-9095 for UHF and the
YA-1713 for VHF if they don't need anything below Ch 7.
And couple this to the AP-2880 preamp for a deadly combination

stampeder · 12-09-2008, 11:24 AM

TV Tech has arrived to tell us that what experienced installers, engineers, and testers have been telliing people for years, and what people have seen from their own experiences all along, is totally wrong and that only he knows the truth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TV Tech

this antenna design is nearly bi-directional

Utter nonsense, as you can see from this polar plot at Ken Nist's hdtvprimer site:

What's the use... he doesn't believe antenna modelers anyways... Hobbyists Create DIY Super TV Antenna Post #25 and #26.

jim5506 · 12-09-2008, 12:37 PM

I think he was speaking of the VHF performance of the 4228.

stampeder · 12-09-2008, 01:43 PM

If that's what he meant it would have been much better if he'd said that, but he didn't.

Take a look at all his posts here today... sigh... I was raised to never come into someones house and kick their dog.

TV Tech · 12-09-2008, 07:37 PM

I have been an electronics technician since 1978.
And in 1993 I became an RF engineer.
The antennas I have helped design had to be installed more than 22,000 miles above the planet so I couldn't afford to GUESS or rely only on computer models.
So i know just a LITTLE bit about antennas and rf.

The computer models are simply unproven theory.

Until and unless you have tested the antenna in a controlled environment and referenced to a dipole standard, you will not know how they function in the real world and it WILL be much different than the models that keep getting quoted on here.

And as I have stated, BOOM length means MUCH more than attaching
a bazillion elements to a 6 foot boom.

When you study RF and antenna design as I have, you can spot a scam at a thousand yards.

stampeder · 12-09-2008, 11:22 PM

Put on your RF Engineer cap and get on over to the Gray-Hoverman Research & Design forum because we would love to have you on board, and you'll find plenty of RF and broadcasting colleagues. It would be great to have such a major sceptic go over all our proven, real world successes. The XGH project is closing in on measured net gain of 20dB in the mid-UHF channels.

Can you please join today?

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=81982

smdp1 · 12-10-2008, 08:57 PM

winegard hd 9095?.....94.75" boom length...91xg 93" not that much difference, I suspect the extra 1.75" is actually not on the "active" part of the boom...and from the look of it the 9095 has one major flaw in the director placement not to mention the feed system on it...its a good antenna, I'll give you that, but it isn't all that.....its mounting system is also a pain best put in on the pole while on the ground, nice idea though getting the pole out of the way like that.....I do like the way they used varied lengths on the active elements in an attempt to match the different wavelengths from low to high uhf channels....seems like an ivite for ghosting though when used with a corner reflector like that.....the 9032 would seem to be a better choice....haven't tried that one...might if I have to go up top again some day.

91xg...hmm...snake oil, I'd say not, may be not as good as it can be, but its good...little expensive, but works....4228 is crap here because of cci..just can't use it for dx at all....I've tried various yagi types here and actually think that the 9095 was one of them...been awhile and can't remember really...have had winegards, radioshacks, terks, channel masters, antennas direct, and wade delhi....believe it or not the RS combo models did better than the 4228 did here, however none that I tried did as good as the 91xg....for vhf I am using the vip 307 from wade-delhi...can't complain about the reception on it at all.....
speak bad about them if you will, I'll just sit back in my recliner and continue watching channels from over 100 miles day in and day out...not to mention the dx I get.....oh and I did use a 300 ohm fed pre-amp with the 4228...someone else gave me that little tip.

Rick0725 · 12-11-2008, 06:33 PM

The 91 xg will out perform both the hd9095 and pr/hd9032 by a few dbd average across the entire uhf band. there will be channels where the winegards may perform better but across the entire band I give the 91xg the edge.

I have been content ever since installing the 91 xg at my place. before the xg, I was preoccupied trying to find a better antenna for uhf. and I tried just about everthing.

Rick0725 · 12-11-2008, 06:36 PM

The 91 xg will out perform both the hd9095 and pr/hd/cm 9032 by a few dbd average across the entire uhf band. there will be channels where the winegards may perform better but across the entire band I give the 91xg the edge.

I have been content ever since installing the 91 xg at my place. before the xg, I was preoccupied trying to find a better antenna for uhf. and I tried just about everthing.

NSer · 12-15-2008, 11:57 AM

Tigerbangs,

I've got a decent rooftop antenna providing VHF and UHF channels from 40 miles away in Roanoke VA. I have a splitter installed at about 15 feet from the antennae (convenient location). One lead runs off 25 to a bedroom and the other lead is about 45 ft. to the den. Im pretty sure I would benefit from a preamp as a couple of the channels are fairly weak and drop in and out often enough to be annoying. Question is: how to do the install. Should I put the preamp at the end of the shortest run and use a passive on one leg splitter? I cant put preamp any closer as there is no power available there.
Any type or model # recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

thanks in advance
Stan

Tower Guy · 12-15-2008, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NSer

I cant put preamp any closer as there is no power available there.

Replace your current splitter with one like this.

http://www.indyav.com/products/2-Way...-Splitter.html

Connect the power supply for the preamp behind one of your TVs and connect that coax to the port on the splitter that passes the power.

hokie93 · 12-15-2008, 04:47 PM

Would it be ok to put a preamp between two antennas on a mast?

tigerbangs · 12-15-2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NSer

Tigerbangs,

I've got a decent rooftop antenna providing VHF and UHF channels from 40 miles away in Roanoke VA. I have a splitter installed at about 15 feet from the antennae (convenient location). One lead runs off 25 to a bedroom and the other lead is about 45 ft. to the den. Im pretty sure I would benefit from a preamp as a couple of the channels are fairly weak and drop in and out often enough to be annoying. Question is: how to do the install. Should I put the preamp at the end of the shortest run and use a passive on one leg splitter? I cant put preamp any closer as there is no power available there.
Any type or model # recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

thanks in advance
Stan

Always mount your preamplifier as clsoe to the antenna as possible, and mount the power supply for the preamplifier BEFORE you do any splitting. Always use a 1 gHz or better splitter, and make sure that you coaxial cable is less that 3-4- years old. I'd like to know what you have for an antenna, though...

re_broker · 12-23-2008, 01:59 PM

I am John in Central Calif. 95251 I plan to purchase a new LCD 120 hz LED backlit TV & antenna after the CES convention, probably late February. Until today all my research indicated that the best antenna would be either the CM 4228, probably with rotor, or the DB8. Today I am told the Winegard HD8200U is the way to go. AntennaWeb.org, usually very accurate points me in teh wrong direction SW [Modesto] with only a single channel available analog & Spanish. All antanae in my area point NW &I receive several Sacramento stations, & with rotor some San Francisco. Allegedly the DB* will do the same without the rotor. I am so damn confused that I am considering keeping my old TV & overpaying cable for what my neighbors get free with antanae of yesteryear design (look like CM 4228) And with Feb 17 coming I don't even know if I need VHF/UHF or onlyUHF I really don't care about FM, only TV. Also the so called "Smart Antenna" e.g. DTA 5000 has allegedly been pulled from the market. I think it was only medium range only. Are there any anticipated surprises coming at the CES convention in Vegas in Jan 09 re: antannae for TV. Most posts have been from East Coast. Also, I lean toward thinking that in fringe areas such as mine computer generated answers are too hypothetical to be of use. Can anybody point me toward relevant post Feb 17 info? lthanxxxx

12-09-2008, 01:43 PM	#755
stampeder Canadian OTA Guy Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Delta, BC, Canada Posts: 43	If that's what he meant it would have been much better if he'd said that, but he didn't. Take a look at all his posts here today... sigh... I was raised to never come into someones house and kick their dog. Last edited by stampeder; 12-09-2008 at 01:51 PM.

12-09-2008, 07:37 PM	#756
TV Tech A couch and an HDTV to go please. Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 13	Lets just deal in FACTS not theories or computer predictions I have been an electronics technician since 1978. And in 1993 I became an RF engineer. The antennas I have helped design had to be installed more than 22,000 miles above the planet so I couldn't afford to GUESS or rely only on computer models. So i know just a LITTLE bit about antennas and rf. The computer models are simply unproven theory. Until and unless you have tested the antenna in a controlled environment and referenced to a dipole standard, you will not know how they function in the real world and it WILL be much different than the models that keep getting quoted on here. And as I have stated, BOOM length means MUCH more than attaching a bazillion elements to a 6 foot boom. When you study RF and antenna design as I have, you can spot a scam at a thousand yards.

12-09-2008, 11:22 PM	#757
stampeder Canadian OTA Guy Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Delta, BC, Canada Posts: 43	Put on your RF Engineer cap and get on over to the Gray-Hoverman Research & Design forum because we would love to have you on board, and you'll find plenty of RF and broadcasting colleagues. It would be great to have such a major sceptic go over all our proven, real world successes. The XGH project is closing in on measured net gain of 20dB in the mid-UHF channels. Can you please join today? http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=81982 Last edited by stampeder; 12-09-2008 at 11:30 PM.

12-10-2008, 08:57 PM	#758
smdp1 digital DX'n is alive Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Greenhill, AL. Posts: 658	winegard hd 9095?.....94.75" boom length...91xg 93" not that much difference, I suspect the extra 1.75" is actually not on the "active" part of the boom...and from the look of it the 9095 has one major flaw in the director placement not to mention the feed system on it...its a good antenna, I'll give you that, but it isn't all that.....its mounting system is also a pain best put in on the pole while on the ground, nice idea though getting the pole out of the way like that.....I do like the way they used varied lengths on the active elements in an attempt to match the different wavelengths from low to high uhf channels....seems like an ivite for ghosting though when used with a corner reflector like that.....the 9032 would seem to be a better choice....haven't tried that one...might if I have to go up top again some day. 91xg...hmm...snake oil, I'd say not, may be not as good as it can be, but its good...little expensive, but works....4228 is crap here because of cci..just can't use it for dx at all....I've tried various yagi types here and actually think that the 9095 was one of them...been awhile and can't remember really...have had winegards, radioshacks, terks, channel masters, antennas direct, and wade delhi....believe it or not the RS combo models did better than the 4228 did here, however none that I tried did as good as the 91xg....for vhf I am using the vip 307 from wade-delhi...can't complain about the reception on it at all..... speak bad about them if you will, I'll just sit back in my recliner and continue watching channels from over 100 miles day in and day out...not to mention the dx I get.....oh and I did use a 300 ohm fed pre-amp with the 4228...someone else gave me that little tip. __________________ my antenna is bigger than yours...lol couldn't resist

12-15-2008, 11:57 AM	#761
NSer What is HD? Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1	Almost good in VA Tigerbangs, I've got a decent rooftop antenna providing VHF and UHF channels from 40 miles away in Roanoke VA. I have a splitter installed at about 15 feet from the antennae (convenient location). One lead runs off 25 to a bedroom and the other lead is about 45 ft. to the den. Im pretty sure I would benefit from a preamp as a couple of the channels are fairly weak and drop in and out often enough to be annoying. Question is: how to do the install. Should I put the preamp at the end of the shortest run and use a passive on one leg splitter? I cant put preamp any closer as there is no power available there. Any type or model # recommendations would be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance Stan

12-08-2008, 07:53 PM	#752
TV Tech A couch and an HDTV to go please. Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 13	The ChannelMaster 4228 is a good antenna but ONLY if fed with 300 ohm twinlead. If you use a 4 to 1 balun to feed it into the preamp you are losing at LEAST 2 db and in some cases 3 or 4 so you are defeating the whole purpose if you don't use a preamp with a 300 ohm input. And this antenna design is nearly bi-directional due to their poor F/B ratio. For simplicity, the Winegard HD-7698 or HD-8200 with the Winegard AP-8700 preamp will do VERY well in the deep fringe areas and even the HD-7084 VHF/UHF antenna produces flawless pictures for many of my customers and sells for about $89 dollars. When I get a customer who wants the max performance available with separate antennas, I use the Winegard HD-9095 for UHF and the YA-1713 for VHF if they don't need anything below Ch 7. And couple this to the AP-2880 preamp for a deadly combination

12-11-2008, 06:33 PM	#759
Rick0725 Antennas by Committee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Clay, New York Posts: 1,558	The 91 xg will out perform both the hd9095 and pr/hd9032 by a few dbd average across the entire uhf band. there will be channels where the winegards may perform better but across the entire band I give the 91xg the edge. I have been content ever since installing the 91 xg at my place. before the xg, I was preoccupied trying to find a better antenna for uhf. and I tried just about everthing.

12-11-2008, 06:36 PM	#760
Rick0725 Antennas by Committee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Clay, New York Posts: 1,558	The 91 xg will out perform both the hd9095 and pr/hd/cm 9032 by a few dbd average across the entire uhf band. there will be channels where the winegards may perform better but across the entire band I give the 91xg the edge. I have been content ever since installing the 91 xg at my place. before the xg, I was preoccupied trying to find a better antenna for uhf. and I tried just about everthing.

12-15-2008, 04:47 PM	#763
hokie93 How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Mechanicsville,VA Posts: 15	Would it be ok to put a preamp between two antennas on a mast?

12-23-2008, 01:59 PM	#765
re_broker What is HD? Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1	I am John in Central Calif. 95251 I plan to purchase a new LCD 120 hz LED backlit TV & antenna after the CES convention, probably late February. Until today all my research indicated that the best antenna would be either the CM 4228, probably with rotor, or the DB8. Today I am told the Winegard HD8200U is the way to go. AntennaWeb.org, usually very accurate points me in teh wrong direction SW [Modesto] with only a single channel available analog & Spanish. All antanae in my area point NW &I receive several Sacramento stations, & with rotor some San Francisco. Allegedly the DB* will do the same without the rotor. I am so damn confused that I am considering keeping my old TV & overpaying cable for what my neighbors get free with antanae of yesteryear design (look like CM 4228) And with Feb 17 coming I don't even know if I need VHF/UHF or onlyUHF I really don't care about FM, only TV. Also the so called "Smart Antenna" e.g. DTA 5000 has allegedly been pulled from the market. I think it was only medium range only. Are there any anticipated surprises coming at the CES convention in Vegas in Jan 09 re: antannae for TV. Most posts have been from East Coast. Also, I lean toward thinking that in fringe areas such as mine computer generated answers are too hypothetical to be of use. Can anybody point me toward relevant post Feb 17 info? lthanxxxx

Similar Threads to tigerbangs prescription for deep fringe reception
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
OTA signal quality	krazykevin	Local HDTV Info and Reception	16	04-02-2006 05:48 PM