tigerbangs prescription for deep fringe reception

jizzo · 08-24-2006, 08:45 AM

I think I have decided to try the CM 4228 on its own first and see what happens. If that doesnt work Ill then get the CM 7777 and the VHF only antenna. Thanks to all!

Diogenes · 08-24-2006, 09:04 AM

I bought mine at Radio Shack, you might call there to see if they have one.

rackerby · 08-24-2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick0725

the cm4228 weighs about 15 lbs and is subject to some sizeable wind loading.

at your distance and reception challenges, you would not want the antenna to flop about in the wind. It can manifest itself as dropouts in signal.

I think I'm subject to some wind related dropouts with my cm4228 (signal strength goes from 78-80 down to zero). What's a good way to shore it up?

Dan

Rick0725 · 08-24-2006, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rackerby

I think I'm subject to some wind related dropouts with my cm4228 (signal strength goes from 78-80 down to zero). What's a good way to shore it up?

Dan

-secure the 2 screen halves behind the bow ties with wire or nylon ties

-stabile the mounting system

-use heavy duty high gauge mast (as mentioned above)

-shorten/trim the mast so it does not sway if you notice the system swaying

-use a thrust bearing if you use a rotor...if there is too much play, the antenna moves

Dan Parks · 08-28-2006, 06:51 AM

I don't have very much experience with antenna's (I've usually lived in areas where Rabbit Ears were sufficient). I now live 75-80 miles North of Seattle (98284) and I get a couple of stations from Bellingham, but would really like to get some Seattle Stations. Currently I can receive a Pretty Snowy Ch 5 At night time but its only at Night. Anyway, I decided to try "Tigerbangs prescription for deep fringe reception" only I cannot find anywhere that sells a "Wade-Delhi VIP-306 VHF antenna". Any Suggestions? Also, the Best location on my property would be to locate the antenna(s) on or near my Metal Roof Barn. How High from the roof, OR How Far from the Barn do I need to be? I'd appreciate your Expertise! Thanks!!

tigerbangs · 08-28-2006, 12:55 PM

At a distance of 65 miles to Seattle, you are going to need all the antenna you can get: I would suggest a Wade-Delhi VIP-307 where you are, since it appears that you have some mountains to overcome where you live. The Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna is the right UHF choice, and you'll want a Channel Master Titan 7777 preamp to tie the two antennas together. As for a rotator: a Channel Master Rotator isn't beefy enough to handle a VIP-307 AND a 4228: pick up a Hy-Gain AR-40 to turn that monster, since you'll also be able to pick up Vancouver and Victoria where you are. I don't know how tall your barn is, or how far from the house it is, but if it is the highest structure on the property, then use it, but make sure that the antenna is at least 10' higher than the highest point of the roof. If you have more than 150' of cable to run between the TV set and the antenna, I strongly suggest buying high-quality RG-11 cable, rather than RG-6 cable, as the line losses in RG-11 are significantly less than RG-6, and you will need to minimize signal loss in your location.

Channel Master has many distributors in the USA, Wade-Delhi has relatively few: if you have trouble locating a VIP-307, you might try the distributor in in Southern B.C., as Wade is a Canadian company, and their distribution is much better in Canada than it is in the US

http://www.channelmaster.com/pdf/AntInstallGuide.pdf
Antenna Installation Guide

http://www.channelmaster.com/
Channel Master

http://www.hy-gain.com/
Hy-Gain.Com -- Your Performance Advantage

http://www.wade-antenna.com/
Wade Antenna Ltd

http://bwcecom.belden.com/

jizzo · 08-29-2006, 08:29 PM

I received the CM 4228 and tested it out by itself. As expected, it didnt work well. Received signals from WTTE, WBNS, and WCMH networks out of Columbus, but the picture was extremely bad or not there at all. I even picked up WBNS-DT but there was no picture. It was so bad I am having serious doubts that an amp would even help. It looks like my area is just not compatible with OTA. Ill have to consider whether or not to continue.

DAMN YOU SINCLAIR BROADCASTING AND TIME WARNER!!!

Dan Parks · 08-30-2006, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerbangs

At a distance of 65 miles to Seattle, you are going to need all the antenna you can get: I would suggest a Wade-Delhi VIP-307 where you are, since it appears that you have some mountains to overcome where you live. The Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna is the right UHF choice, and you'll want a Channel Master Titan 7777 preamp to tie the two antennas together. As for a rotator: a Channel Master Rotator isn't beefy enough to handle a VIP-307 AND a 4228: pick up a Hy-Gain AR-40 to turn that monster, since you'll also be able to pick up Vancouver and Victoria where you are. I don't know how tall your barn is, or how far from the house it is, but if it is the highest structure on the property, then use it, but make sure that the antenna is at least 10' higher than the highest point of the roof. If you have more than 150' of cable to run between the TV set and the antenna, I strongly suggest buying high-quality RG-11 cable, rather than RG-6 cable, as the line losses in RG-11 are significantly less than RG-6, and you will need to minimize signal loss in your location.

Thanks, I Appreciate your Advice! I am going to follow it to the "Tee"
and Hopefully be able to watch some Good TV
(That is IF watching TV can Really be called Good?)
Thanks for the Information!!
~Dan

tigerbangs · 08-30-2006, 08:45 AM

Jizzo: add the preamplifier...you were told this earlier: don't give up! I don't know how the picture could be "extremely bad" in digital: either you are getting a lot of pixellation, or no signal at all: are you sure you aren't watching analog instead of digital. In either case, you NEED a preamp at the distance you are from the transmitters.

run6bob · 09-01-2006, 03:08 PM

Reading this thread has given me moderate hope for Tigerbang's prescription. My zip is 52649, but I used my coordinates for closer mileage estimates on AntennaWeb. (The site doesn't seem to be up to date because all the stations I list below are broadcasting in digital - and HD when available.)

violet - vhf KWQC Davenport, IA 47degrees 80.8miles ch6
violet - vhf WQAD Moline, IL 59 75.7 8
violet - vhf WHBF Rock Island, IL 47 80.8 4
violet - vhf KLJB Davenport, IA 59 76.2 18
blue - vhf WGEM Quincy, IL 162 60 10
blue - vhf KHQA Hannibal, MO 161 58.6 7
blue - vhf KTVO Kirksville, MO 246 44.9 3
blue - uhf KYOU Ottumwa, IA 330 32.4 15.1

Up until a year ago, with a 40ft tower, big (don't know which model, but approx 12 years old) CM Crossfire antenna, CM 0747 preamp, CM rotator, we could pull in channels 10,7,3, & 15 clearly all the time, channel 6 with slight snow 90%, and channels 8,4 & 18 with slight snow a little less than channel 6. With a home remodel and anticipating an HDTV purchase, we sold our 46" projection TV and used our satellite dish with local channels 6,8,4 & 18 on a tv downstairs. A couple of days ago, I picked up a Pioneer 5070HD plasma, and plan on changing to HD satellite, but wish to see if we could pick up these channels over the air. My local channels on satellite are broadcast in std def, and the way I understand it, it might be years before they are HD on satellite. Channels 6,8 & 3 plan on staying uhf. Channels 7 & 10 are asking to return to vhf, and channel 4 will have to return to channel 4 with very low power due to some FCC snafu - no one is expected to be able to pick them up unless live right next to tower.... Anyway, I hooked up the antenna straight to the plasma after the preamp power, and could only get analog channel 3 and only at night. (Preamp does not appear to be working.) So! No HD for now. I will gladly replace our equipment with Tigerbang's prescip if there's a chance to pull in digital channels 6,8,4 & 18. We live on a farm with no hills close, and no buildings or trees blocking the directions the antenna points to. It can get very windy out here on the prairie, with fierce storms during warm weather. I noticed earlier in this thread, a VIP -307 was recommended over the VIP 306, and RG11 was also mentioned instead of RG6. There are NO installers left closer than 70 miles away, so we could be on our own, but with your help, we'll see what we can do. Thanks in advance. Sue

tigerbangs · 09-01-2006, 03:59 PM

It wasn't clear to me if you still had your tower in place, but if you do, that's a very good place to start. Remember that almost all of the digital channels that you will get at your house will be on UHF, so you will need a UHF and VHF antenna if you want to be sucessful. I would suggest that you follow the same advice that I gave the fellow from north of Seattle as far as your equipment goes. That Pioneer Plasma is one of the nicest TV sets I have ever seen, and it deserves a good signal!

ColCorso · 09-05-2006, 10:38 PM

I've been searching for credible nfo on OTA options for more than two months before stumbling onto this forum. What a terrific resource!

My zipcode is 48138, which is SE Mich, about 18mi south of Detroit and 35mi north of Toledo. Also, this part of Michigan is close to Canada, with Windsor, Ont 8mi away across the Detroit river.

I am interested in getting both uhf and vhf digital and analog reception. There are 6 TVs, one HDtv, one SDtv connected to a Voom digital box activated for OTA, and 4 other SD analog tvs. There seems to be a good selectiion of OTA possibilities in the region according to Antennaweb. BTW, Canadian stations don't seem to show up on Antennaweb.

The antennas will go outside on the roof of a two-story colonial home, about 30-ft up. After reading the posts on this forum, it looks like the Tigerbangs deep-fringe perscription is my best shot, but before purchasing everything I would appreciate any suggestions on the following.

1. I can't find the wade-delhi vip-306 anywhere. On the web I looked at solid signal, warren electronics, and even the wade website in Canada. Is it offered under another label or model number, or is there an equivalent vhf antenna?

2. How do you recommend mounting the two antennas? On the same mount or on two different mounts? Is a tripod better than a chimney mount or an eaves mount at the roof's apex?

3. If on the same mount, say a tripod, which antenna should be on top and what is the spacing? Available VHF analog channels are 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 13. Since the 4228 can aquire signals for 7 and higher will it interfer with the VHF antenna for those frequencies.

4. Should a thrust bearing be used with the 9521a rotor, or is another rotor now preferred?. Should both antennas rotate at the same time, or should just the uhf antenna rotate (if it is on top)?

5. The antenna arangement will feed the 6 Tvs through the prewired coax in the house. The antenna lead will come from the roof down the side of the house and enter the basement by using the exisitng entry point of the CATV, which I intend to discontinue if this works. There are two fourway 1gHz spliters directing signals to the TVs. Is the suggested 7777 preamp sufficient?

I know this is a lot to ask, so thanks in advance for any recommendations.

Regards

tigerbangs · 09-06-2006, 09:11 PM

I would suggest a couple of modifications to the prescription for you: Many of your Detroit stations are powerful enough in your area to cause potential overload problems in a conventional preamplifier. I would suggest that you consider using a Winegard HDP-269 preamplifier instead of the Channel Master Titan 7777 to reduce the potential for overload. The HDP-269 has a much higher overload threshold than do other preamplifiers, and , while it's gain is not as great as a Titan 7777, it should be sufficent to power all 6 televisions in your area.

2- 4 way splitters will each have about 7db loss per output, and the two-way splitter that you must have feeding the two 4-way splitters will have about 4db loss, making a total splitting loss of about 11db plus your cable line losses, which I would estimate to be between 2-4db at the highest frequency that you will need for this system. The HDP-269 has an average of 11DB gain, so the preamp will overcome the splitting losses for you, and the cable and insertion losses to each TV set will be negligable.

The upshot of all this gobbldygook is that a good fringe-type antenna will be handle your needs without a problem. You are not really in a fringe area; it is more of a suburban area, and a good all-channel antenna like a Channel Master Crossfire 3671, or a Wade-Delhi VU-936SR, or a Winegard HD7084P or a HD8200P will do everything that you need. The deep-fringe prescription is really for use where TV stations are a minimum of 45 miles from your location: that is not the situation here. You wull have no problem picking up the Windsor stations from your location, and I expect that the Toledo stations should pose no problems for you, either, if you use a rotator to turn the antenna. Since you wiill be powering so many TV sets, I suggest that you aim at the Detroit stations, which will allow everyone in the family to watch the greatest number of stations, and rotate the antenna only when you need out-of-town sports or if there is a local TV blackout of a program you want to watch. Good luck.

Alfaman · 09-19-2006, 03:36 PM

Hello tigerbangs. I woluld be greatful if you could tell me whether your prescription is likely to work for me before I go to the trouble and find out it dosn't work. My antenna is about 20ft above ground level, ground level is around 40ft ASL. I am around 46 miles from a digital terestrial transmitter with an output of 2.3Kw. Analogue reception at 500Kw from the same is quite grainy. For the signal to reach me it must first pass over mountains about 750-1000ft high with a 300kw analouge UHF transmitter (but no digital

)on them 7 miles from my home. I have been told that these factors make it impossible for me to recive the digital channels, but maybe there is some hope!

Id be very greatful if you could help me.
Alfaman

**rbinck** · 09-19-2006, 05:11 PM

Alfaman, tiger will need your zip code.

08-24-2006, 09:04 AM	#62
Diogenes High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 596	I bought mine at Radio Shack, you might call there to see if they have one. __________________ A good definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Anybody seen my lamp?

08-28-2006, 06:51 AM	#65
Dan Parks What is HD? Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2	tigerbangs prescription for deep fringe reception I don't have very much experience with antenna's (I've usually lived in areas where Rabbit Ears were sufficient). I now live 75-80 miles North of Seattle (98284) and I get a couple of stations from Bellingham, but would really like to get some Seattle Stations. Currently I can receive a Pretty Snowy Ch 5 At night time but its only at Night. Anyway, I decided to try "Tigerbangs prescription for deep fringe reception" only I cannot find anywhere that sells a "Wade-Delhi VIP-306 VHF antenna". Any Suggestions? Also, the Best location on my property would be to locate the antenna(s) on or near my Metal Roof Barn. How High from the roof, OR How Far from the Barn do I need to be? I'd appreciate your Expertise! Thanks!!

08-28-2006, 12:55 PM	#66
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 2,101	At a distance of 65 miles to Seattle, you are going to need all the antenna you can get: I would suggest a Wade-Delhi VIP-307 where you are, since it appears that you have some mountains to overcome where you live. The Channel Master 4228 UHF antenna is the right UHF choice, and you'll want a Channel Master Titan 7777 preamp to tie the two antennas together. As for a rotator: a Channel Master Rotator isn't beefy enough to handle a VIP-307 AND a 4228: pick up a Hy-Gain AR-40 to turn that monster, since you'll also be able to pick up Vancouver and Victoria where you are. I don't know how tall your barn is, or how far from the house it is, but if it is the highest structure on the property, then use it, but make sure that the antenna is at least 10' higher than the highest point of the roof. If you have more than 150' of cable to run between the TV set and the antenna, I strongly suggest buying high-quality RG-11 cable, rather than RG-6 cable, as the line losses in RG-11 are significantly less than RG-6, and you will need to minimize signal loss in your location. Channel Master has many distributors in the USA, Wade-Delhi has relatively few: if you have trouble locating a VIP-307, you might try the distributor in in Southern B.C., as Wade is a Canadian company, and their distribution is much better in Canada than it is in the US http://www.channelmaster.com/pdf/AntInstallGuide.pdf Antenna Installation Guide http://www.channelmaster.com/ Channel Master http://www.hy-gain.com/ Hy-Gain.Com -- Your Performance Advantage http://www.wade-antenna.com/ Wade Antenna Ltd http://bwcecom.belden.com/ __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

08-29-2006, 08:29 PM	#67
jizzo How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16	No Luck with 4228 I received the CM 4228 and tested it out by itself. As expected, it didnt work well. Received signals from WTTE, WBNS, and WCMH networks out of Columbus, but the picture was extremely bad or not there at all. I even picked up WBNS-DT but there was no picture. It was so bad I am having serious doubts that an amp would even help. It looks like my area is just not compatible with OTA. Ill have to consider whether or not to continue. DAMN YOU SINCLAIR BROADCASTING AND TIME WARNER!!!

08-30-2006, 08:45 AM	#69
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 2,101	Jizzo: add the preamplifier...you were told this earlier: don't give up! I don't know how the picture could be "extremely bad" in digital: either you are getting a lot of pixellation, or no signal at all: are you sure you aren't watching analog instead of digital. In either case, you NEED a preamp at the distance you are from the transmitters. __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

08-24-2006, 08:45 AM	#61
jizzo How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16	I think I have decided to try the CM 4228 on its own first and see what happens. If that doesnt work Ill then get the CM 7777 and the VHF only antenna. Thanks to all!

09-01-2006, 03:08 PM	#70
run6bob ruralHD Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Extreme SE Iowa Posts: 1	prescription for SE Iowa? Reading this thread has given me moderate hope for Tigerbang's prescription. My zip is 52649, but I used my coordinates for closer mileage estimates on AntennaWeb. (The site doesn't seem to be up to date because all the stations I list below are broadcasting in digital - and HD when available.) violet - vhf KWQC Davenport, IA 47degrees 80.8miles ch6 violet - vhf WQAD Moline, IL 59 75.7 8 violet - vhf WHBF Rock Island, IL 47 80.8 4 violet - vhf KLJB Davenport, IA 59 76.2 18 blue - vhf WGEM Quincy, IL 162 60 10 blue - vhf KHQA Hannibal, MO 161 58.6 7 blue - vhf KTVO Kirksville, MO 246 44.9 3 blue - uhf KYOU Ottumwa, IA 330 32.4 15.1 Up until a year ago, with a 40ft tower, big (don't know which model, but approx 12 years old) CM Crossfire antenna, CM 0747 preamp, CM rotator, we could pull in channels 10,7,3, & 15 clearly all the time, channel 6 with slight snow 90%, and channels 8,4 & 18 with slight snow a little less than channel 6. With a home remodel and anticipating an HDTV purchase, we sold our 46" projection TV and used our satellite dish with local channels 6,8,4 & 18 on a tv downstairs. A couple of days ago, I picked up a Pioneer 5070HD plasma, and plan on changing to HD satellite, but wish to see if we could pick up these channels over the air. My local channels on satellite are broadcast in std def, and the way I understand it, it might be years before they are HD on satellite. Channels 6,8 & 3 plan on staying uhf. Channels 7 & 10 are asking to return to vhf, and channel 4 will have to return to channel 4 with very low power due to some FCC snafu - no one is expected to be able to pick them up unless live right next to tower.... Anyway, I hooked up the antenna straight to the plasma after the preamp power, and could only get analog channel 3 and only at night. (Preamp does not appear to be working.) So! No HD for now. I will gladly replace our equipment with Tigerbang's prescip if there's a chance to pull in digital channels 6,8,4 & 18. We live on a farm with no hills close, and no buildings or trees blocking the directions the antenna points to. It can get very windy out here on the prairie, with fierce storms during warm weather. I noticed earlier in this thread, a VIP -307 was recommended over the VIP 306, and RG11 was also mentioned instead of RG6. There are NO installers left closer than 70 miles away, so we could be on our own, but with your help, we'll see what we can do. Thanks in advance. Sue

09-01-2006, 03:59 PM	#71
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 2,101	It wasn't clear to me if you still had your tower in place, but if you do, that's a very good place to start. Remember that almost all of the digital channels that you will get at your house will be on UHF, so you will need a UHF and VHF antenna if you want to be sucessful. I would suggest that you follow the same advice that I gave the fellow from north of Seattle as far as your equipment goes. That Pioneer Plasma is one of the nicest TV sets I have ever seen, and it deserves a good signal! __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

09-05-2006, 10:38 PM	#72
ColCorso What is HD? Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4	Request for Suggestions I've been searching for credible nfo on OTA options for more than two months before stumbling onto this forum. What a terrific resource! My zipcode is 48138, which is SE Mich, about 18mi south of Detroit and 35mi north of Toledo. Also, this part of Michigan is close to Canada, with Windsor, Ont 8mi away across the Detroit river. I am interested in getting both uhf and vhf digital and analog reception. There are 6 TVs, one HDtv, one SDtv connected to a Voom digital box activated for OTA, and 4 other SD analog tvs. There seems to be a good selectiion of OTA possibilities in the region according to Antennaweb. BTW, Canadian stations don't seem to show up on Antennaweb. The antennas will go outside on the roof of a two-story colonial home, about 30-ft up. After reading the posts on this forum, it looks like the Tigerbangs deep-fringe perscription is my best shot, but before purchasing everything I would appreciate any suggestions on the following. 1. I can't find the wade-delhi vip-306 anywhere. On the web I looked at solid signal, warren electronics, and even the wade website in Canada. Is it offered under another label or model number, or is there an equivalent vhf antenna? 2. How do you recommend mounting the two antennas? On the same mount or on two different mounts? Is a tripod better than a chimney mount or an eaves mount at the roof's apex? 3. If on the same mount, say a tripod, which antenna should be on top and what is the spacing? Available VHF analog channels are 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 13. Since the 4228 can aquire signals for 7 and higher will it interfer with the VHF antenna for those frequencies. 4. Should a thrust bearing be used with the 9521a rotor, or is another rotor now preferred?. Should both antennas rotate at the same time, or should just the uhf antenna rotate (if it is on top)? 5. The antenna arangement will feed the 6 Tvs through the prewired coax in the house. The antenna lead will come from the roof down the side of the house and enter the basement by using the exisitng entry point of the CATV, which I intend to discontinue if this works. There are two fourway 1gHz spliters directing signals to the TVs. Is the suggested 7777 preamp sufficient? I know this is a lot to ask, so thanks in advance for any recommendations. Regards

09-06-2006, 09:11 PM	#73
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 2,101	I would suggest a couple of modifications to the prescription for you: Many of your Detroit stations are powerful enough in your area to cause potential overload problems in a conventional preamplifier. I would suggest that you consider using a Winegard HDP-269 preamplifier instead of the Channel Master Titan 7777 to reduce the potential for overload. The HDP-269 has a much higher overload threshold than do other preamplifiers, and , while it's gain is not as great as a Titan 7777, it should be sufficent to power all 6 televisions in your area. 2- 4 way splitters will each have about 7db loss per output, and the two-way splitter that you must have feeding the two 4-way splitters will have about 4db loss, making a total splitting loss of about 11db plus your cable line losses, which I would estimate to be between 2-4db at the highest frequency that you will need for this system. The HDP-269 has an average of 11DB gain, so the preamp will overcome the splitting losses for you, and the cable and insertion losses to each TV set will be negligable. The upshot of all this gobbldygook is that a good fringe-type antenna will be handle your needs without a problem. You are not really in a fringe area; it is more of a suburban area, and a good all-channel antenna like a Channel Master Crossfire 3671, or a Wade-Delhi VU-936SR, or a Winegard HD7084P or a HD8200P will do everything that you need. The deep-fringe prescription is really for use where TV stations are a minimum of 45 miles from your location: that is not the situation here. You wull have no problem picking up the Windsor stations from your location, and I expect that the Toledo stations should pose no problems for you, either, if you use a rotator to turn the antenna. Since you wiill be powering so many TV sets, I suggest that you aim at the Detroit stations, which will allow everyone in the family to watch the greatest number of stations, and rotate the antenna only when you need out-of-town sports or if there is a local TV blackout of a program you want to watch. Good luck. __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

09-19-2006, 03:36 PM	#74
Alfaman What is HD? Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 3	Hopeless Case? Hello tigerbangs. I woluld be greatful if you could tell me whether your prescription is likely to work for me before I go to the trouble and find out it dosn't work. My antenna is about 20ft above ground level, ground level is around 40ft ASL. I am around 46 miles from a digital terestrial transmitter with an output of 2.3Kw. Analogue reception at 500Kw from the same is quite grainy. For the signal to reach me it must first pass over mountains about 750-1000ft high with a 300kw analouge UHF transmitter (but no digital )on them 7 miles from my home. I have been told that these factors make it impossible for me to recive the digital channels, but maybe there is some hope! Id be very greatful if you could help me. Alfaman Last edited by Alfaman; 09-19-2006 at 03:48 PM.

09-19-2006, 05:11 PM	#75
rbinck Administrator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Katy, Texas Posts: 12,301	Alfaman, tiger will need your zip code. __________________ www.highdefinitionblog.com www.BlogOfHawaii.com