tigerbangs prescription for deep fringe reception

jizzo · 08-21-2006, 07:53 PM

Do you think a CM 3671 would be my best option then? Or is the CM 3020 better?

THANKS

Rick0725 · 08-21-2006, 08:15 PM

The advantage series antennas are under performers in conparison in their size class.

Here is a comparison of some of the best fringe antennas

average dbd gain
cm3020
3.6 low vhf
8.6 high vhf
9.5 uhf

cm3671
5.6
10.9
10.0

hd7084p
7.0
11.15
12.2

hd8200p
7.0
11.5
13.3

the hd8200p is best on paper.

an amp may be tricky...there is a station close by but not in the direction of most towers.

tigerbangs · 08-21-2006, 08:53 PM

NO, use the deep fringe prescription...not a one-antenna solution

JKnPA · 08-22-2006, 06:12 AM

Rick,
You posted this link in another forum. Doesn't it show that the CM 4228 can receive channels 8-13 to some degree.
The bottom chart shows the gain(dbd) about 4 for both conditions.
I receive channel 8 on my CM4228 and it is 32miles away.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html
JK.

Rick0725 · 08-22-2006, 06:48 AM

if you believe what you read at hdtvprimer and take the data for how the cm 4228 is rated in dbd.

ch7 -1
ch8 -4
ch 9 +3
ch 10 +6
ch 11 +5
ch 12 +2
ch 13 +4

The antenna web spec for red / blue reception is 0 dbd on vhf high

so in red/ blue/purple, ch 7 and 8 should be a dog (on paper requires 0 dbd) and should work fine in yellow, green, and lt green. where the antenna web spec for vhf high is see below.

A thing of note about that gain chart...the dips are quite deep...if the measurements move side to side just a bit then ch 8 is a great

VHF Low (2-6): VHF High (7-13): UHF:
-25 dBd - 15 dBd -10 dBd (yellow)
-12 dBd -9 dBd -6 dBd (dark Green)
-2.5 dBd -2.5 dBd -2.5 dBd (light green)
-2.5 dBd 0 dBd 0 dBd (red)
-2.5 dBd 0 dBd 0 dBd (blue)
4 dBd 6 dBd 8 dBd (violet)
4 dBd 6 dBd 8 dBd (pink)

add 3db for trees
add 3 db for inside
assume all hills bock all signal
antenna web aleady adjusts for significant hills.

there are many factors involved (line of sight, power of station, heigth , etc.) and reception is not cut and dry.

It should be used as a guide to help select an antenna and not to bash the cm4228.

JKnPA · 08-22-2006, 07:14 AM

Rick,
I don't think anyone is 'bashing' the CM 4228.
If I were him, I would buy one antenna first, and try that one. If that wasn't sufficient, I would buy another one(VHF) that has a higher gain at ch.13.
Why buy 2 antennas to start, when one( perhaps the CM4228) might work at that channel.
I just saw that chart. I have no idea how accurate it is.
The real test is trying it............. IMHO....
Jk.

Rick0725 · 08-22-2006, 08:51 AM

do not want to confuse the issue for izzo and others

what I wrote addressed the ch 7, 8 issue with the cm 4228 for JKnPA and a way to utilize the measurement tools available to us...a combination of antenna web results, published gain figures...and a guide to help put things into perspective when making a decisions.

the logical possibilites are
-cm4228 alone for uhf and maybe being lucky to receive ch 7-13 adequately in a blue/purple environment if you desire those channels.
-a high gain deep fringe combo - cm3671 or a hd8200p to receive vhf and uhf.
-a cm4228 with a high gain vhf antenna -the perscription
-a high gain low noise amp...cm 7777, ap8275 and rotor

there are going to be reception issues for izzo. the user ultimately makes the final decision on how to proceed based on information provided.

from my experience not everyone desires 2 antennas...high gain uhf and vhf, so it is a good idea to provide as many options as possible.

we many times suggest a certain antenna may not work or even a certain antenna should work and the users come back and tell us that it works fine or does not.

When I did this for a living, I would bring out several antennas and preamps swap them and come up with the best alternaive on site. most of us out there do not have that luxury, purchase the product on the internet, and basically take a risk hoping that the decision made is the right one.

There are many ways to "skin the cat"... wish it would be more cut and dry but reception solutions are not.

tigerbangs · 08-22-2006, 09:45 AM

Use the deep-fringe prescription..Final Answer!

jizzo · 08-22-2006, 09:59 AM

I appreciate everyone's input. The best answer seems to be the "prescription" but that is an expensive option for only one channel. The channel I REALLY want is WSYX-ABC in high def, which is the digital feed, and even with the prescription there is no guarantee. I guess I have some thinking to do.

Thanks again!

tigerbangs · 08-22-2006, 10:17 AM

Well, if all you want is Digital channel 13, try a Winegard 10 element high-band yagi and a preamp: it won't get you UHF, bu it should get you channel 13 without a problem: you live well within the signal contour for WSYX-DT

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT674641.html

http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/ya-1713.pdf

You could add a 4228 to the yagi if you need any of the UHF digital stations from Columbus: it WILL work! If you do, use a Channel Master Titan 7777 preamp, which has separate UHF and VHF inputs, which will uncomplicate the installation.

JKnPA · 08-22-2006, 10:31 AM

Tiger,
With all due respect......... your 'prescription' may not work either!
Since none of us is actually there......... We don't know! Also he may not have the $$$$$ to spend on your 'prescription'.
* Some problems have 'no solution'............. FWIW.

Respectfully,
Jk.

jizzo · 08-22-2006, 01:20 PM

I had a look at that Winegard. It says it is rated for only 15-25 miles. Since Im 50-55 miles, I dont think that would work, right?

tigerbangs · 08-22-2006, 01:40 PM

Um, I think you may have misinterpreted the measurements: the YA-1713 Winegard Yagi has 10.3 DB gain at channel 13: that should be plenty of gain for your needs, especially if you use a preamp. My sister lives in Centerville, near Dayton, and I installed a Wade-Delhi VU-936SR without a preamp at her house, and she picks up WSYX-DT just fine and she's quite a bit further than you are from their signal!

jizzo · 08-22-2006, 01:40 PM

Here is my antenna web readout, for what it is worth.

red - uhf WHIZ 18 NBC ZANESVILLE OH 162° 8.0 18
* red - uhf WHIZ-DT 18.1 NBC ZANESVILLE OH 162° 8.0 40
blue - uhf WSFJ 51 i NEWARK OH 259° 20.0 51
blue - uhf W16BT 16 TBN ZANESVILLE OH 149° 7.4 16
violet - uhf WOUB 20 PBS ATHENS OH 193° 50.0 20
violet - uhf WOSU 34 PBS COLUMBUS OH 287° 47.0 34
violet - uhf WOUC 44 PBS CAMBRIDGE OH 91° 40.4 44
violet - vhf WCMH 4 NBC COLUMBUS OH 272° 52.0 4
violet - vhf WBNS 10 CBS COLUMBUS OH 272° 52.0 10
violet - uhf WTTE 28 FOX COLUMBUS OH 269° 51.9 28
violet - vhf WSYX 6 ABC COLUMBUS OH 269° 51.9 6

jizzo · 08-22-2006, 01:46 PM

OK, though the terrain between Nashport and Columbus is VERY different than between Dayton and Columbus. I do really appreciate your help, and I am now trying to decide between a CM 4228 and just praying that it picks up VHF 13, or just get a VHF antenna only.

08-21-2006, 07:53 PM	#31
jizzo How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16	OK Thanks Do you think a CM 3671 would be my best option then? Or is the CM 3020 better? THANKS

08-21-2006, 08:53 PM	#33
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 1,847	NO, use the deep fringe prescription...not a one-antenna solution __________________ What has four legs and chases Katz? Mrs. Katz and her lawyer!

08-22-2006, 06:12 AM	#34
JKnPA High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 204	CM4228............ charts Rick, You posted this link in another forum. Doesn't it show that the CM 4228 can receive channels 8-13 to some degree. The bottom chart shows the gain(dbd) about 4 for both conditions. I receive channel 8 on my CM4228 and it is 32miles away. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html JK. __________________ ************************************ JK Sharp LC-37D6U Denon Receiver AVR- 1906 JVC DVD player XV-SA600 Polk speakers CM 4228 / CM7777@ 9521A

08-22-2006, 07:14 AM	#36
JKnPA High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 204	Rick............. ??? Rick, I don't think anyone is 'bashing' the CM 4228. If I were him, I would buy one antenna first, and try that one. If that wasn't sufficient, I would buy another one(VHF) that has a higher gain at ch.13. Why buy 2 antennas to start, when one( perhaps the CM4228) might work at that channel. I just saw that chart. I have no idea how accurate it is. The real test is trying it............. IMHO.... Jk. __________________ ************************************ JK Sharp LC-37D6U Denon Receiver AVR- 1906 JVC DVD player XV-SA600 Polk speakers CM 4228 / CM7777@ 9521A

08-22-2006, 08:51 AM	#37
Rick0725 Antennas by Committee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Clay, New York Posts: 1,521	do not want to confuse the issue for izzo and others what I wrote addressed the ch 7, 8 issue with the cm 4228 for JKnPA and a way to utilize the measurement tools available to us...a combination of antenna web results, published gain figures...and a guide to help put things into perspective when making a decisions. the logical possibilites are -cm4228 alone for uhf and maybe being lucky to receive ch 7-13 adequately in a blue/purple environment if you desire those channels. -a high gain deep fringe combo - cm3671 or a hd8200p to receive vhf and uhf. -a cm4228 with a high gain vhf antenna -the perscription -a high gain low noise amp...cm 7777, ap8275 and rotor there are going to be reception issues for izzo. the user ultimately makes the final decision on how to proceed based on information provided. from my experience not everyone desires 2 antennas...high gain uhf and vhf, so it is a good idea to provide as many options as possible. we many times suggest a certain antenna may not work or even a certain antenna should work and the users come back and tell us that it works fine or does not. When I did this for a living, I would bring out several antennas and preamps swap them and come up with the best alternaive on site. most of us out there do not have that luxury, purchase the product on the internet, and basically take a risk hoping that the decision made is the right one. There are many ways to "skin the cat"... wish it would be more cut and dry but reception solutions are not. Last edited by Rick0725; 08-22-2006 at 09:19 AM.

08-21-2006, 08:15 PM	#32
Rick0725 Antennas by Committee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Clay, New York Posts: 1,521	The advantage series antennas are under performers in conparison in their size class. Here is a comparison of some of the best fringe antennas average dbd gain cm3020 3.6 low vhf 8.6 high vhf 9.5 uhf cm3671 5.6 10.9 10.0 hd7084p 7.0 11.15 12.2 hd8200p 7.0 11.5 13.3 the hd8200p is best on paper. an amp may be tricky...there is a station close by but not in the direction of most towers.

08-22-2006, 06:48 AM	#35
Rick0725 Antennas by Committee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Clay, New York Posts: 1,521	if you believe what you read at hdtvprimer and take the data for how the cm 4228 is rated in dbd. ch7 -1 ch8 -4 ch 9 +3 ch 10 +6 ch 11 +5 ch 12 +2 ch 13 +4 The antenna web spec for red / blue reception is 0 dbd on vhf high so in red/ blue/purple, ch 7 and 8 should be a dog (on paper requires 0 dbd) and should work fine in yellow, green, and lt green. where the antenna web spec for vhf high is see below. A thing of note about that gain chart...the dips are quite deep...if the measurements move side to side just a bit then ch 8 is a great VHF Low (2-6): VHF High (7-13): UHF: -25 dBd - 15 dBd -10 dBd (yellow) -12 dBd -9 dBd -6 dBd (dark Green) -2.5 dBd -2.5 dBd -2.5 dBd (light green) -2.5 dBd 0 dBd 0 dBd (red) -2.5 dBd 0 dBd 0 dBd (blue) 4 dBd 6 dBd 8 dBd (violet) 4 dBd 6 dBd 8 dBd (pink) add 3db for trees add 3 db for inside assume all hills bock all signal antenna web aleady adjusts for significant hills. there are many factors involved (line of sight, power of station, heigth , etc.) and reception is not cut and dry. It should be used as a guide to help select an antenna and not to bash the cm4228.

08-22-2006, 09:45 AM	#38
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 1,847	Use the deep-fringe prescription..Final Answer! __________________ What has four legs and chases Katz? Mrs. Katz and her lawyer!

08-22-2006, 09:59 AM	#39
jizzo How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16	Thanks for all the replies I appreciate everyone's input. The best answer seems to be the "prescription" but that is an expensive option for only one channel. The channel I REALLY want is WSYX-ABC in high def, which is the digital feed, and even with the prescription there is no guarantee. I guess I have some thinking to do. Thanks again!

08-22-2006, 10:17 AM	#40
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 1,847	Well, if all you want is Digital channel 13, try a Winegard 10 element high-band yagi and a preamp: it won't get you UHF, bu it should get you channel 13 without a problem: you live well within the signal contour for WSYX-DT http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-serv...=DT674641.html http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/ya-1713.pdf You could add a 4228 to the yagi if you need any of the UHF digital stations from Columbus: it WILL work! If you do, use a Channel Master Titan 7777 preamp, which has separate UHF and VHF inputs, which will uncomplicate the installation. __________________ What has four legs and chases Katz? Mrs. Katz and her lawyer!

08-22-2006, 10:31 AM	#41
JKnPA High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 204	Final answer............ ??? Tiger, With all due respect......... your 'prescription' may not work either! Since none of us is actually there......... We don't know! Also he may not have the $$$$$ to spend on your 'prescription'. * Some problems have 'no solution'............. FWIW. Respectfully, Jk. __________________ ************************************ JK Sharp LC-37D6U Denon Receiver AVR- 1906 JVC DVD player XV-SA600 Polk speakers CM 4228 / CM7777@ 9521A

08-22-2006, 01:20 PM	#42
jizzo How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16	I had a look at that Winegard. It says it is rated for only 15-25 miles. Since Im 50-55 miles, I dont think that would work, right?

08-22-2006, 01:40 PM	#43
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 54 Posts: 1,847	Um, I think you may have misinterpreted the measurements: the YA-1713 Winegard Yagi has 10.3 DB gain at channel 13: that should be plenty of gain for your needs, especially if you use a preamp. My sister lives in Centerville, near Dayton, and I installed a Wade-Delhi VU-936SR without a preamp at her house, and she picks up WSYX-DT just fine and she's quite a bit further than you are from their signal! __________________ What has four legs and chases Katz? Mrs. Katz and her lawyer!

08-22-2006, 01:46 PM	#45
jizzo How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16	OK, though the terrain between Nashport and Columbus is VERY different than between Dayton and Columbus. I do really appreciate your help, and I am now trying to decide between a CM 4228 and just praying that it picks up VHF 13, or just get a VHF antenna only.

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