tigerbangs prescription for deep fringe reception

TheHotHit · 09-16-2007, 11:04 AM

Tigerbangs - many thanks for your quick reply and your advice. I'd forgotten about 2009!

The Channel Master Titan 7777 sounds like a good idea.

I mistakenly meant to say Channel Master 3671 instead of 4671 - sorry.

I really don't want to have to add another antenna in 2009. If I wanted to stick with one antenna, it would seem that the 3671, 3020 & 4242 have good UHF & VHF performance (according to specs. and HDTVPrimer) - what do you think?

tigerbangs · 09-16-2007, 12:19 PM

Forget about the 3020: it's a DOG! The 4242 has good VHF, and passable UHF, but the 4228 is miles better on UHF! As a one-antenna solution, the 4228 is probably a better choice than any of the all-channel antennas out there. It will provide sufficient VHF performance on Channels 7-13 to satisfy you for the foreseeable future.

If you find that you need additional VHF performance, try a high-band VHF yagi like a Winegard YA-1713, which will live happily under a 4228 and will provide VHF performance on channels 7-17 that is comparable to the best all-channel antennas on those channels.

antennaguy · 10-14-2007, 11:39 AM

Tigerbangs,

I am curious as to why you favor the Channel Master Titan 7777 pre-amp over the Spartan 0064. The latter have 300 ohm inputs eliminating the balun loss. Is it that the balun loss is small and the 75 ohm cable more rugged than the 300 ohm? The specs seem to be very close.

BTW, your comments on attic installations are on the mark. I had a new roof put on this summer. The architectural shingles definitely caused additional signal loss. Impossible to estimate how much because lighting fried my cheapie amplifier (MCM 33-8715 ~$13) a month earlier (antenna and amp in the attic!). So I installed a CM4220 (baby brother to the 4228) because the polar plot showed about a 20 degree spread which would allow me to cover the transmitters at 20 miles out (30064) from Atlanta. I kept the RS VU90 for VHF (See attached photo). The setup works well so far, improved WSB 2 (DT 39). Walked the attic for the best spot. Have not had a real windy day to see if I still get dropouts. Improved my analog reception also. Channel 69 was virtually unwatchable, now comes in fairly well.

**rbinck** · 10-14-2007, 12:19 PM

I don't know what tiger will say, but for me 300 ohm twinlead just becomes more antenna to pick up noise and reflections. UHF in particular has very short bandwidths, so getting the leads short enough to negate the effect would be very hard.

Rick0725 · 10-14-2007, 01:10 PM

If you have a 300 ohm antenna (and most of them are) then the Spartan series is 1-2 dB more sensitive that the Titan which has additional degradation to the noise figure due to loss in the external Balun.

The high-gain CM Titan series (e.g. CM-7777) are very high gain preamps intended for use well away from any transmitters and overused in the suburban setting.

The lower gain CM Spartan series is the best overall choice because it only tries to overcome the noise figure, downlead/splitter loss and antenna VSWR problems while minimizing the overload problems that come with excessive gain. The cm7778 is a 75 ohm version of the Spartan 0064 in a Titan box.

The cm7777 in my opinion, is not always the best preamp choice. The cm 7777 is an MATV style preamp designed for the boonies and longer coax setups. A poor choice in the suburbs where high multiple signal levels are the norm.

But the internet word of mouth says the cm7777 is the best preamp out there and preamp of choice. So any suggestion of a different amp brings out alot of passion.

My choice for the suburban setting is the wingard hdp 269. The cm spartan 0064 tends to have too much gain there. another altenative and the next step up from the hdp 269 is the winegard ap4700 uhf only preamp which passes vhf. I tend to use the cm 7777 with caution at least 30 or more miles from towers. This can be a challenge because they stuck high powered fox, cw, ion towers in the suburbs so you have to be mindful of them.

There are many variables determining amp selection . The gain of the antenna, length of runs, number of spits, power of the transmitters, number of towers in one direction, on and on and on. That is why I have commented less lately. too many options and not only one solution.

The prescription (cm7777) in this thread is for the deep fringe greater than the 35 mile ballpark and not for the suburbs.

antennaguy · 10-14-2007, 09:39 PM

Agree. I have problems with "herringbone" interference on anlog 11 and 2, especially with the old "cheapie" amp. the 0264 has an adjustable trap which eliminates most of the interference most of the time - seems to crop up mostly during the evening news. Realize that this will be a moot point in 16 months.

nosrevis · 11-06-2007, 09:00 PM

Just purchased winegard 8200, pre-amp, and rotor. Also installing bearing above rotor. My question is how high should antenna be above the bearing? The guy wires attach to this bearing and I have read that guy wires will lower antenna gain??? Thanks

Midwest Dxer · 11-07-2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nosrevis

Just purchased winegard 8200, pre-amp, and rotor. Also installing bearing above rotor. My question is how high should antenna be above the bearing? The guy wires attach to this bearing and I have read that guy wires will lower antenna gain??? Thanks

Around 12 to 16" and make sure you have enough slack for the coax to not catch on anything.Put the preamp below the bearing on the main support mast.

The guy wires won't interfere with anything.

ncentral ark · 11-07-2007, 07:13 PM

Tigerbangs, I am installing a Taco DMX-36 tower with a delhi 306 VHF antenna and a 91XG UHF antenna. Does it matter whether the VHF antenna is located above the UHF antena or below? I am going to use a CM7777 with the VHF & UHF separated at the preamp. Also do the jumpers from each antenna need to be equal length that will run to the preamp? I am a good distance from the towers (70-80 miles) and trying to get all the signal possible.

Log Periodic · 11-08-2007, 05:09 PM

Very interesting stuff in this thread.

@tigerbangs - Is there a site or article where I can have the top Deep-Fringe VHF/UHF/FM antennas compared side-by-each? If not, what would be your top 5 picks from the leading manufacturers? (Winegard, ChannelMaster, Wade-Delhi, Antennacraft, others?)

tigerbangs · 11-08-2007, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncentral ark

Tigerbangs, I am installing a Taco DMX-36 tower with a delhi 306 VHF antenna and a 91XG UHF antenna. Does it matter whether the VHF antenna is located above the UHF antenna or below? I am going to use a CM7777 with the VHF & UHF separated at the preamp. Also do the jumpers from each antenna need to be equal length that will run to the preamp? I am a good distance from the towers (70-80 miles) and trying to get all the signal possible.

I usually suggest that you install the VHF antenna on the bottom, and the UHF antenna on top. There may be no real difference in reception, but that configuration makes for a more stable installation. You didn't mention whether or not you were using a rotator, but , if you do, be sure to use a thrust bearing to take most of the wind-load off the rotator. Also, you will find that the XG-91 seems to do better in deep-fringe areas when you put at least a 10 degree tilt above the horizon on the antenna when you install it.

Unlike stacking identical antennas in order to achieve greater gain, you do not have to keep your lead-in cables of equal length, but it is always a good idea to keep them as short as possible, and secure them with wire-ties to keep the wire from whipping in the wind.

tigerbangs · 11-08-2007, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Log Periodic

Very interesting stuff in this thread.

@tigerbangs - Is there a site or article where I can have the top Deep-Fringe VHF/UHF/FM antennas compared side-by-each? If not, what would be your top 5 picks from the leading manufacturers? (Winegard, ChannelMaster, Wade-Delhi, Antennacraft, others?)

I haven't seen any recent comparisons between the various antennas: Consumer Reports did their last test of antennas over 30 years ago, and, at that time, they rated the Jerrold (Delhi) VU-935SR as it's top-rated antenna. There have been newer antenna designs since then, and I am not really in a position to say what is the absolute BEST all-channel antenna.

I installed Channel Master Quantum antennas for years, and was very happy with their performance, but Channel Master has discontinued that line, and the Crossfire, while pretty good, doesn't have the very narrow beamwidth or front-to-back ratio of the old Quantum line.

Many people swear by the Winegard HD line, and they seem to be pretty well made, although my experience with them is that they are good on VHF, but perhaps a bit lacking on UHF, especially in their deep-fringe models.

Antennacraft? Hmmm
I have used their little FM-6 yagi for many years, and it has to be one of the all-time bargains in FM performance. I don't have any recent experience with their all-channel antennas, but past experience told me that their use of dissimilar metals sometimes lead to early corrosion issues. Antennacraft also makes the Radio Shack line of all-channel antennas, with which I DO have recent experience, and have found them to be mostly mediocre performers.

From the standpoint of which is the MOST extreme all-channel antenna, that award has to go to the Wade-Delhi VU-937SR with the optional VU-8PZ powerzoom UHF attachment. That sucker is over 220" long, and may well be the best solution for someone who needs an all-channel antenna where reception is mostly hopeless. It's enormous, heavy, and needs one heavy-duty rotator if you are gonna use one. Given my choice, though, I would still probably opt for a Wade-Delhi VIP-306 or a VIP 307 VHF only antenna and use an AntennasDirect XG-91 on top of it for the most impossible fringe conditions, along with a Channel Master Titan 7777 preamp.

Log Periodic · 11-08-2007, 07:11 PM

Thank you very much for the reply. You're very generous with your time and expertise.

I have a Winegard CS-8200 (purchased in 1991) and an Alliance HD-73 rotor. I live in Orange County, California, so local reception isn't a problem. What I do use the over-sized antenna for is receiving channels from Santa Barbara, Ventura and Mexico. I have received skip from KRTV (3) in Great Falls, Montana, and KACB (3) in San Angelo, Texas. For some irrational reason, I have been interested in the hobby since I was about 14. Strange, I know. I was thinking about trading-up, but I'm not sure if it would make a difference.

Again, thanks for the reply.

ncentral ark · 11-08-2007, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigerbangs

I usually suggest that you install the VHF antenna on the bottom, and the UHF antenna on top. There may be no real difference in reception, but that configuration makes for a more stable installation. You didn't mention whether or not you were using a rotator, but , if you do, be sure to use a thrust bearing to take most of the wind-load off the rotator. Also, you will find that the XG-91 seems to do better in deep-fringe areas when you put at least a 10 degree tilt above the horizon on the antenna when you install it.

Unlike stacking identical antennas in order to achieve greater gain, you do not have to keep your lead-in cables of equal length, but it is always a good idea to keep them as short as possible, and secure them with wire-ties to keep the wire from whipping in the wind.

Thanks so much for your reply. I will be using a rotator on a Taco DMX-36 tower with a mast thrust bearing on the top plate. I currently have a delhi rotator, appears light duty. Do you think it will be sufficent to support two large antennas or will there be too much wind load? Therefore requiring a heavy duty rotator such as a Hy-Gain AR-40.

thisisrybo · 11-08-2007, 08:07 PM

Tigerbangs, my zipcode is 35630. I'm a newbie to this but I want to do this right. I have what I believe to be a cb or hamm radio antenna or something going up really high 35+ feet on the side of my house. It looks stable enough to mount the tv antenna to it. Could I do this? What antenna setup would you recommend? What are the steps? I'll do anything to get away from the cable company.

I'm going to Dish BTW..... Also are my locals even broadcasting in HD or is this a waste of time???

Thanks for you help!!!

09-16-2007, 12:19 PM	#392
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 55 Posts: 2,147	Forget about the 3020: it's a DOG! The 4242 has good VHF, and passable UHF, but the 4228 is miles better on UHF! As a one-antenna solution, the 4228 is probably a better choice than any of the all-channel antennas out there. It will provide sufficient VHF performance on Channels 7-13 to satisfy you for the foreseeable future. If you find that you need additional VHF performance, try a high-band VHF yagi like a Winegard YA-1713, which will live happily under a 4228 and will provide VHF performance on channels 7-17 that is comparable to the best all-channel antennas on those channels. __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

10-14-2007, 12:19 PM	#394
rbinck Administrator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Katy, Texas Posts: 12,934	I don't know what tiger will say, but for me 300 ohm twinlead just becomes more antenna to pick up noise and reflections. UHF in particular has very short bandwidths, so getting the leads short enough to negate the effect would be very hard. __________________ www.highdefinitionblog.com www.BlogOfHawaii.com Last edited by rbinck; 10-14-2007 at 05:30 PM. Reason: Spelin'

10-14-2007, 01:10 PM	#395
Rick0725 Antennas by Committee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Clay, New York Posts: 1,560	If you have a 300 ohm antenna (and most of them are) then the Spartan series is 1-2 dB more sensitive that the Titan which has additional degradation to the noise figure due to loss in the external Balun. The high-gain CM Titan series (e.g. CM-7777) are very high gain preamps intended for use well away from any transmitters and overused in the suburban setting. The lower gain CM Spartan series is the best overall choice because it only tries to overcome the noise figure, downlead/splitter loss and antenna VSWR problems while minimizing the overload problems that come with excessive gain. The cm7778 is a 75 ohm version of the Spartan 0064 in a Titan box. The cm7777 in my opinion, is not always the best preamp choice. The cm 7777 is an MATV style preamp designed for the boonies and longer coax setups. A poor choice in the suburbs where high multiple signal levels are the norm. But the internet word of mouth says the cm7777 is the best preamp out there and preamp of choice. So any suggestion of a different amp brings out alot of passion. My choice for the suburban setting is the wingard hdp 269. The cm spartan 0064 tends to have too much gain there. another altenative and the next step up from the hdp 269 is the winegard ap4700 uhf only preamp which passes vhf. I tend to use the cm 7777 with caution at least 30 or more miles from towers. This can be a challenge because they stuck high powered fox, cw, ion towers in the suburbs so you have to be mindful of them. There are many variables determining amp selection . The gain of the antenna, length of runs, number of spits, power of the transmitters, number of towers in one direction, on and on and on. That is why I have commented less lately. too many options and not only one solution. The prescription (cm7777) in this thread is for the deep fringe greater than the 35 mile ballpark and not for the suburbs. Last edited by Rick0725; 10-14-2007 at 01:34 PM.

10-14-2007, 09:39 PM	#396
antennaguy How do I get HD? Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Marietta, GA Posts: 65	Agree. I have problems with "herringbone" interference on anlog 11 and 2, especially with the old "cheapie" amp. the 0264 has an adjustable trap which eliminates most of the interference most of the time - seems to crop up mostly during the evening news. Realize that this will be a moot point in 16 months. __________________ Sony KDL-46W3000 Pioneer 12” 3 way (2) D* HR22-100 ______________________ Toshiba 26HL66 LCD Channel Master 4220 UHF Radio Shack VU-90XR VHF Channel Master 00264 amp

11-08-2007, 05:09 PM	#400
Log Periodic What is HD? Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2	Deep Fringe 82-Channel Antennas Very interesting stuff in this thread. @tigerbangs - Is there a site or article where I can have the top Deep-Fringe VHF/UHF/FM antennas compared side-by-each? If not, what would be your top 5 picks from the leading manufacturers? (Winegard, ChannelMaster, Wade-Delhi, Antennacraft, others?)

09-16-2007, 11:04 AM	#391
TheHotHit What is HD? Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2	Tigerbangs - many thanks for your quick reply and your advice. I'd forgotten about 2009! The Channel Master Titan 7777 sounds like a good idea. I mistakenly meant to say Channel Master 3671 instead of 4671 - sorry. I really don't want to have to add another antenna in 2009. If I wanted to stick with one antenna, it would seem that the 3671, 3020 & 4242 have good UHF & VHF performance (according to specs. and HDTVPrimer) - what do you think?

11-06-2007, 09:00 PM	#397
nosrevis My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: lebanon, oregon Posts: 7	Just purchased winegard 8200, pre-amp, and rotor. Also installing bearing above rotor. My question is how high should antenna be above the bearing? The guy wires attach to this bearing and I have read that guy wires will lower antenna gain??? Thanks

11-07-2007, 07:13 PM	#399
ncentral ark What is HD? Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3	Tigerbangs, I am installing a Taco DMX-36 tower with a delhi 306 VHF antenna and a 91XG UHF antenna. Does it matter whether the VHF antenna is located above the UHF antena or below? I am going to use a CM7777 with the VHF & UHF separated at the preamp. Also do the jumpers from each antenna need to be equal length that will run to the preamp? I am a good distance from the towers (70-80 miles) and trying to get all the signal possible.

11-08-2007, 07:11 PM	#403
Log Periodic What is HD? Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2	8200 Thank you very much for the reply. You're very generous with your time and expertise. I have a Winegard CS-8200 (purchased in 1991) and an Alliance HD-73 rotor. I live in Orange County, California, so local reception isn't a problem. What I do use the over-sized antenna for is receiving channels from Santa Barbara, Ventura and Mexico. I have received skip from KRTV (3) in Great Falls, Montana, and KACB (3) in San Angelo, Texas. For some irrational reason, I have been interested in the hobby since I was about 14. Strange, I know. I was thinking about trading-up, but I'm not sure if it would make a difference. Again, thanks for the reply.

11-08-2007, 08:07 PM	#405
thisisrybo A couch and an HDTV to go please. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 14	help Tigerbangs, my zipcode is 35630. I'm a newbie to this but I want to do this right. I have what I believe to be a cb or hamm radio antenna or something going up really high 35+ feet on the side of my house. It looks stable enough to mount the tv antenna to it. Could I do this? What antenna setup would you recommend? What are the steps? I'll do anything to get away from the cable company. I'm going to Dish BTW..... Also are my locals even broadcasting in HD or is this a waste of time??? Thanks for you help!!!

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