tigerbangs prescription for deep fringe reception

tigerbangs · 01-21-2007, 05:12 PM

If you want a one-antenna solution, try a Channel Master Crossfire 3671, or a Winegard HD-8200 or a Wade-Delhi VU-936SR with the optional VU-8PZ powerzoom UHF attachment and a good preamp like a Channel Master Titan 7777: use a rotator, too, since your stations are scattered. You can also try the deep-fringe perscription if oyu need a bit better UHF...

http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster
http://www.winegard.com
http://www.wade-antenna.com

jostarr · 01-22-2007, 07:07 AM

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack this thread! I live in Forest, VA....My local staions are in Roanoke, VA. and in Thaxton, VA. Mountaints and a low elevation at my house have made UHF reception difficullt. So, I went and bought a new UHF Antenna and mast mounted amplifier and got it installed. All before I found the highdefforum and tigerbangs reccomendations for deep fringe reception.

In any case, I then purchased a Philips 26" HDTV to test the reception. I did get all the local HD channels, but suffered some outages during a severe rain storm 2 weeks ago. I felt I needed a bigger screen, so I took the Philips back, and bought a Vizio VX37L Saturday. Got it set up and was very impressed with pic quality and color right out of the box. We had a sleet/snow storm yesterday, and I was amazed that I had no loss of signal or breakup with the Vizio. The Philips would have been useless in that storm. But that is an interesting aside.

My question for tigerbangs, or anyone is as follows: The run from my mast amp to the Vizio was a little more than 50 feet and I used RG-6. Now, I want to be able to distribute the UHF HD signals to
at least 4 locations in my house. I expect the cable runs to be more
that 50 feet in some cases. What equipmet do you reccomend for this application? I can put an indoor distribution amp in my attic, about 10 feet from where the UHF antenna is now located. If this is
recommended, what hi gain, low loss amp is recommended?

As a separate issue, I also have a Phase 3 DTV antenna now being used in the same 4 locations as above. Should I get a Terk 5x8 multiswitch and run the UHF antenna into that? Will the Terk provide
sufficient low noise gain?

Or should I run a separate UHF line to each location...ie., 2 feeds, UHF and DTV to each room? Please give me your reccomendations.

Rick0725 · 01-22-2007, 07:28 AM

I am not a fan of diplexing signal with satellite and prefer separate runs especially with reception conditions like yours .

If extra coax runs are not an issue for you, try an appropriate splitter with separate coax runs and go from there.

I use winegard distribution amps when I need to. hda100 or hda 200. you may not need a distribution amplifier with a mast mounted amp.

http://www.winegard.com/offair/amps.htm

jostarr · 01-22-2007, 08:02 AM

Thanks to Rick0725 for the suggestions. I would prefer NOT to have to run separate cables for OTA and Sat., but will do so if necessary.

My primary concern is to have enough low noise gain with the OTA HD signals. I have a Winegard pre amp now, and am thinking about putting a CM-3044, 4 set distribution amp about 10 feet away from it, then distribute to the 4 locations. I have seen some other posts about this
elswhere on this foum, but haven't seen the pros and cons spelled out
by anyone with experience using a set up like this in a fringe area.

Rick0725 · 01-22-2007, 08:29 AM

Quote:

My primary concern is to have enough low noise gain with the OTA HD signals

If you are concerned about distributing a signal around the home under conditions of marginal signal in a deep fringe environment...separate runs are best. diplexing adds a loss at insertion and then again at separation almost equivalent to a 2 way splitter at either end.

try the diplexing process without extra amplification first (since you are already using a mast mounted amp) then add your distribution amp to see if there is improvement. terminate the unused ports.

distribution amps are not necessary under many conditions if you installed a mast mounted preamp at the antenna. the extra losses associated with diplexing in your case may make a distribution amp necessary.

first install without the distribution amp. if the signal needs an extra boost then add one and compare.

If you are then not satisfied , extra runs should improve the situation.

**rbinck** · 01-22-2007, 08:46 AM

Bear in mind if you put the OTA signal into the multiswitch, you will need to amplify the feed into the switch and a distribution amp would not be of any real use. A high gain low noise preamp to amp the single feed would be better. If you use a distribution amp you could use a diplexer/combiner on each feed I suppose. You will need about 6db gain on each output to be effective to overcome the two diplexer losses.

Alternately, you can use a powered multiswitch like the Spaun DMS5802NF that has an adjustible amp for the OTA built in. Most installers don't care for the Spaun due to the cost, but in some instances it is a good solution, especially where long coax runs are encountered.

jostarr · 01-22-2007, 12:31 PM

I have investigated the Spaun Multiswitch, and it is too expensive. I'd run a separate OTA antenna line to each room before I use that! Looks like my options are as follows:

TERK 5x8 multiswitch with OTA antenna into switch using a hi-gain, low noise preamp at the antenna, and between the OTA antenna & the Switch.....relatively inexpensive to try!

Separate lines to each room for Sat & OTA antennas.....using hi-gain, low noise preamp at the antenna, passive 4 set coupler, or indoor distribution amp in the OTA Antenna lines......more costly and much
more difficult to try.

Are those my best alternatives?

**rbinck** · 01-22-2007, 05:27 PM

That's about it.

Well you could get a 4 output distribution amp and 4 diplexers on the receiver side of the multiswitch and a diplexer at each TV. Lot of cludgey wiring tho.

homeoflady · 02-01-2007, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleSC

is this the setup? if so gonna look for these components asap.

new member here. just curious if i need a preamp or not. my situation is as follows. zip is 49241 in hanover mi. i currently use a
phillips mant950 mounted 25 feet on an existing 40 ft tower. i receive very strong signals from uhf 38,51 and 57 i believe (all are
hd network stations). these are all about 20-25 miles away. the one station that i need to receive is cbs hd or uhf 59 which is about 43
miles away. i cannot even get a blip with my current antenna (though if i turn my antenna enough to the northwest i can get 8 hd
out of grand rapids which is 60 miles away, go figure) anyway i ordered and will receive today the cm 4228 but i did not buy a preamp for now. all 4 network stations that i want to receive are 23
to 43 miles away and from 8-28 degrees from the north out of the
lansing market. i do not think i will need a rotor. my run is only to one hd tv right now no more than 55 feet from the antenna. do you think the preamp would be neccesary or over kill. i have relatively
flat terrain. the only obstacle nearby is a 50 ft pine tree about 30 ft from the tower and in the general direction of the lansing market. i want to be able to watch the game sunday in hd . thanks.

tigerbangs · 02-01-2007, 09:48 AM

Give us your zip code, what kind of tuner you are using, and how many TV sets you want to connect, and we can help you!

zenbig42 · 02-01-2007, 12:28 PM

Greetings, new here. After reading many recommendation...thanks tigerbangs, rick, many others for relating your experience and advice!

I live in area where problems are like deep-fringe, but I think mountains are problem, not distance.

My question is what antenna (UHF) do you think is best for dealing with multi-path in weak signal area?

Here's my situation:
Zip 05674, (Latitude = 44.1064, Longitude = -72.8914) in the mountains, elev 1600'. 29 miles from transmitters. All digital channels I want are co-located on Mt. Mansfield (at ~3800' elev). System: samsung 4092 tv, dish vip622 receiver, antenna radio shack vu90-xr, 10' mast on roof ridge ~40 feet above ground, channel master 7778 pre-amp (using combined UHF/VHF input, yes I tried checking/switching the internal switch), rg6 (~80', properly grounded, direct to tv tuner). We have DishNetwork, which carries locals, but not in HD. (and they are the worst of any of the SD channels!). Four local channels are now broadcasting OTA HD in digital (at Mt. Mansfield).

Antenna_web says I should only get one analog channel (wcax ch3). this one comes in fine, with some minimal ghosting, but of course I'm looking for the digital signals. I've tried a number of different antennas with varying results. I can reliably get one channel (wvny-dt on ch13-vhf), though I can most often lock on the 3 other digital channels (all on UHF 14, 32, 53), but the signal strength (using on-screen samsung meter) fluctuates (usually 3-4 bars out of 10) and I get frequent pixelation and dropouts so the channels are unwatchable for 75% of the time, I get the rare moments or hours when I can direct the antenna (very slight aiming adjustment) and get to watch the channel I want for a bit. Again, the exception is the my sole VHF digital channel 13 wvny which is solid (but still only 3-4 strength). I have the antenna hooked directly to the TV ant input, as the samsung tuner deals with the weak signals I have much better. the dish vip622 doesn't recognize (with a scan) any of the other channels other than the ch13 wvny.

I've also tried these antennas: CM 4228, the AntennasDirect 43XG, and the larger Radio Shack vu-190. But none have been able to improve my results. I have used lots of patience and plenty of experimentation (with and with out pre-amp for each; careful aiming, adjusting both the height of the antenna and the physical location on the roof). I was really surpised that I actually get better reception (on uhf channels) with the radio shack vu90xr than with the CM 4228, b/c the 4228 is recommended in so many places online, in discussion forums, and hdtvprimer.com as the solution for both fringe and multipath problems.

Even though my antenna is high, the hill I am on slopes gently up in the direction of the towers (adding yet another obstruction) and the trees are higher (nearest at 50' and they are spruce with needles all year). There are numerous mountains that block line-of-sight to towers. I thought the nearby trees might be the problem, but then I tried the CM 4228 near the top of one of these spruce trees up about 60' off ground - nothing in front of the antenna (yeah, my wife that experiment...LOL!) in calm clear weather and did not get any improvement with this installation over the same antenna on the roof. In the tree, I had a clear view (no trees) of the nearest horizon, the top of my local hill, about 1000' feet away, my rg6 run was about 200' total to tv in this set-up.

This has me thinking that in addition to having weak signal (blocked by mountains), and that the other analog channels I get have moderate to severe ghosting that multipath is the other problem, not the trees near my house.

The most frustrating part is that I KNOW we have some signal here, but its either just too weak, too much multipath, or not the right antenna (or all the above!) I am thinking about trying next the XG91 or CM 3023 (same as CM 4248) antenna. I am also considering the 16-bay CM 4228 solution (on hdtvprimer.com), but am sketptical of this since the 4228 hasn't really performed for me, and there are lots of caveats with this custom solution. I realize nothing may work any better and that I'm SOL in my area (or have to live with just one OTA HD channel), but any advice or recommendations about this situation would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time.

tigerbangs · 02-01-2007, 01:41 PM

I suggest pulling out the XG-43 that you have used before, mount it as high as you can get it, and use the tilt feature to aim the antenna about 15-20 degrees above the horizon. You'll need the preamp to make this work, though. I was playing with a similar situation the other day in Ledyard CT, which is about 50 miles from the DTV transmitters here in CT. no luck when the antenna was in the horizontal plane, but once we tilted it up, several UHF digital stations popped up that were beyond our reach before. It does sound like multipath is also part of your problem, but if you aim the antenna above the ridge of hills where you are, you may get lucky...

zenbig42 · 02-01-2007, 05:23 PM

Thanks for the advice. I do have a pre-amp on it - channel master 7778. I don't think the 7777 would make much difference, since its a weak signal/mulitpath that I need to overcome (not signal loss from antenna to TV). Need to do some more experimenting with the vertical angle tilt. What is the easiest way to acheive this tilt, since the bracket wants to attach it at 90 deg to the vertical mast? The best way? I saw one on A-tech fabrication website, but expensive.

After a bunch of tries with the XG43, I returned it. Do think the XG91 is actually a better performer? The AD specs claim it only has 1 db higher gain than X43, even though the boom is 50% longer and the reflector a little bigger.

Yeah.....I need all the luck I can get in order to see the Superbowl in HD.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

tigerbangs · 02-01-2007, 09:15 PM

My thoughts? Stop eating granola and MOVE!

GhettoShark · 02-01-2007, 09:23 PM

Tigerbangs, would I be able to pick up signals 80-100 miles away? I live in a relatively flat area without many obstructions. Thanks in advance!

EDIT: And also, would it be possible to pick up signals from across Lake Michigan?

01-21-2007, 05:12 PM	#136
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 55 Posts: 2,148	If you want a one-antenna solution, try a Channel Master Crossfire 3671, or a Winegard HD-8200 or a Wade-Delhi VU-936SR with the optional VU-8PZ powerzoom UHF attachment and a good preamp like a Channel Master Titan 7777: use a rotator, too, since your stations are scattered. You can also try the deep-fringe perscription if oyu need a bit better UHF... http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster http://www.winegard.com http://www.wade-antenna.com __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

01-22-2007, 07:07 AM	#137
jostarr High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 70	Amplifiers Sorry, I don't mean to hijack this thread! I live in Forest, VA....My local staions are in Roanoke, VA. and in Thaxton, VA. Mountaints and a low elevation at my house have made UHF reception difficullt. So, I went and bought a new UHF Antenna and mast mounted amplifier and got it installed. All before I found the highdefforum and tigerbangs reccomendations for deep fringe reception. In any case, I then purchased a Philips 26" HDTV to test the reception. I did get all the local HD channels, but suffered some outages during a severe rain storm 2 weeks ago. I felt I needed a bigger screen, so I took the Philips back, and bought a Vizio VX37L Saturday. Got it set up and was very impressed with pic quality and color right out of the box. We had a sleet/snow storm yesterday, and I was amazed that I had no loss of signal or breakup with the Vizio. The Philips would have been useless in that storm. But that is an interesting aside. My question for tigerbangs, or anyone is as follows: The run from my mast amp to the Vizio was a little more than 50 feet and I used RG-6. Now, I want to be able to distribute the UHF HD signals to at least 4 locations in my house. I expect the cable runs to be more that 50 feet in some cases. What equipmet do you reccomend for this application? I can put an indoor distribution amp in my attic, about 10 feet from where the UHF antenna is now located. If this is recommended, what hi gain, low loss amp is recommended? As a separate issue, I also have a Phase 3 DTV antenna now being used in the same 4 locations as above. Should I get a Terk 5x8 multiswitch and run the UHF antenna into that? Will the Terk provide sufficient low noise gain? Or should I run a separate UHF line to each location...ie., 2 feeds, UHF and DTV to each room? Please give me your reccomendations.

01-22-2007, 07:28 AM	#138
Rick0725 Antennas by Committee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Clay, New York Posts: 1,560	I am not a fan of diplexing signal with satellite and prefer separate runs especially with reception conditions like yours . If extra coax runs are not an issue for you, try an appropriate splitter with separate coax runs and go from there. I use winegard distribution amps when I need to. hda100 or hda 200. you may not need a distribution amplifier with a mast mounted amp. http://www.winegard.com/offair/amps.htm Last edited by Rick0725; 01-22-2007 at 07:34 AM.

01-22-2007, 08:02 AM	#139
jostarr High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 70	Distribution Amp & PreAmp Thanks to Rick0725 for the suggestions. I would prefer NOT to have to run separate cables for OTA and Sat., but will do so if necessary. My primary concern is to have enough low noise gain with the OTA HD signals. I have a Winegard pre amp now, and am thinking about putting a CM-3044, 4 set distribution amp about 10 feet away from it, then distribute to the 4 locations. I have seen some other posts about this elswhere on this foum, but haven't seen the pros and cons spelled out by anyone with experience using a set up like this in a fringe area.

01-22-2007, 08:46 AM	#141
rbinck Administrator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Katy, Texas Posts: 12,962	Bear in mind if you put the OTA signal into the multiswitch, you will need to amplify the feed into the switch and a distribution amp would not be of any real use. A high gain low noise preamp to amp the single feed would be better. If you use a distribution amp you could use a diplexer/combiner on each feed I suppose. You will need about 6db gain on each output to be effective to overcome the two diplexer losses. Alternately, you can use a powered multiswitch like the Spaun DMS5802NF that has an adjustible amp for the OTA built in. Most installers don't care for the Spaun due to the cost, but in some instances it is a good solution, especially where long coax runs are encountered. __________________ www.highdefinitionblog.com www.BlogOfHawaii.com Last edited by rbinck; 01-22-2007 at 08:50 AM.

01-22-2007, 12:31 PM	#142
jostarr High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 70	Multiswitch & OTA I have investigated the Spaun Multiswitch, and it is too expensive. I'd run a separate OTA antenna line to each room before I use that! Looks like my options are as follows: TERK 5x8 multiswitch with OTA antenna into switch using a hi-gain, low noise preamp at the antenna, and between the OTA antenna & the Switch.....relatively inexpensive to try! Separate lines to each room for Sat & OTA antennas.....using hi-gain, low noise preamp at the antenna, passive 4 set coupler, or indoor distribution amp in the OTA Antenna lines......more costly and much more difficult to try. Are those my best alternatives?

01-22-2007, 05:27 PM	#143
rbinck Administrator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Katy, Texas Posts: 12,962	That's about it. Well you could get a 4 output distribution amp and 4 diplexers on the receiver side of the multiswitch and a diplexer at each TV. Lot of cludgey wiring tho. __________________ www.highdefinitionblog.com www.BlogOfHawaii.com Last edited by rbinck; 01-22-2007 at 05:29 PM.

02-01-2007, 09:48 AM	#145
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 55 Posts: 2,148	Give us your zip code, what kind of tuner you are using, and how many TV sets you want to connect, and we can help you! __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

02-01-2007, 12:28 PM	#146
zenbig42 My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 5	Antenna recommendation Greetings, new here. After reading many recommendation...thanks tigerbangs, rick, many others for relating your experience and advice! I live in area where problems are like deep-fringe, but I think mountains are problem, not distance. My question is what antenna (UHF) do you think is best for dealing with multi-path in weak signal area? Here's my situation: Zip 05674, (Latitude = 44.1064, Longitude = -72.8914) in the mountains, elev 1600'. 29 miles from transmitters. All digital channels I want are co-located on Mt. Mansfield (at ~3800' elev). System: samsung 4092 tv, dish vip622 receiver, antenna radio shack vu90-xr, 10' mast on roof ridge ~40 feet above ground, channel master 7778 pre-amp (using combined UHF/VHF input, yes I tried checking/switching the internal switch), rg6 (~80', properly grounded, direct to tv tuner). We have DishNetwork, which carries locals, but not in HD. (and they are the worst of any of the SD channels!). Four local channels are now broadcasting OTA HD in digital (at Mt. Mansfield). Antenna_web says I should only get one analog channel (wcax ch3). this one comes in fine, with some minimal ghosting, but of course I'm looking for the digital signals. I've tried a number of different antennas with varying results. I can reliably get one channel (wvny-dt on ch13-vhf), though I can most often lock on the 3 other digital channels (all on UHF 14, 32, 53), but the signal strength (using on-screen samsung meter) fluctuates (usually 3-4 bars out of 10) and I get frequent pixelation and dropouts so the channels are unwatchable for 75% of the time, I get the rare moments or hours when I can direct the antenna (very slight aiming adjustment) and get to watch the channel I want for a bit. Again, the exception is the my sole VHF digital channel 13 wvny which is solid (but still only 3-4 strength). I have the antenna hooked directly to the TV ant input, as the samsung tuner deals with the weak signals I have much better. the dish vip622 doesn't recognize (with a scan) any of the other channels other than the ch13 wvny. I've also tried these antennas: CM 4228, the AntennasDirect 43XG, and the larger Radio Shack vu-190. But none have been able to improve my results. I have used lots of patience and plenty of experimentation (with and with out pre-amp for each; careful aiming, adjusting both the height of the antenna and the physical location on the roof). I was really surpised that I actually get better reception (on uhf channels) with the radio shack vu90xr than with the CM 4228, b/c the 4228 is recommended in so many places online, in discussion forums, and hdtvprimer.com as the solution for both fringe and multipath problems. Even though my antenna is high, the hill I am on slopes gently up in the direction of the towers (adding yet another obstruction) and the trees are higher (nearest at 50' and they are spruce with needles all year). There are numerous mountains that block line-of-sight to towers. I thought the nearby trees might be the problem, but then I tried the CM 4228 near the top of one of these spruce trees up about 60' off ground - nothing in front of the antenna (yeah, my wife that experiment...LOL!) in calm clear weather and did not get any improvement with this installation over the same antenna on the roof. In the tree, I had a clear view (no trees) of the nearest horizon, the top of my local hill, about 1000' feet away, my rg6 run was about 200' total to tv in this set-up. This has me thinking that in addition to having weak signal (blocked by mountains), and that the other analog channels I get have moderate to severe ghosting that multipath is the other problem, not the trees near my house. The most frustrating part is that I KNOW we have some signal here, but its either just too weak, too much multipath, or not the right antenna (or all the above!) I am thinking about trying next the XG91 or CM 3023 (same as CM 4248) antenna. I am also considering the 16-bay CM 4228 solution (on hdtvprimer.com), but am sketptical of this since the 4228 hasn't really performed for me, and there are lots of caveats with this custom solution. I realize nothing may work any better and that I'm SOL in my area (or have to live with just one OTA HD channel), but any advice or recommendations about this situation would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for your time.

02-01-2007, 01:41 PM	#147
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 55 Posts: 2,148	I suggest pulling out the XG-43 that you have used before, mount it as high as you can get it, and use the tilt feature to aim the antenna about 15-20 degrees above the horizon. You'll need the preamp to make this work, though. I was playing with a similar situation the other day in Ledyard CT, which is about 50 miles from the DTV transmitters here in CT. no luck when the antenna was in the horizontal plane, but once we tilted it up, several UHF digital stations popped up that were beyond our reach before. It does sound like multipath is also part of your problem, but if you aim the antenna above the ridge of hills where you are, you may get lucky... __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

02-01-2007, 05:23 PM	#148
zenbig42 My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 5	Thanks for the advice. I do have a pre-amp on it - channel master 7778. I don't think the 7777 would make much difference, since its a weak signal/mulitpath that I need to overcome (not signal loss from antenna to TV). Need to do some more experimenting with the vertical angle tilt. What is the easiest way to acheive this tilt, since the bracket wants to attach it at 90 deg to the vertical mast? The best way? I saw one on A-tech fabrication website, but expensive. After a bunch of tries with the XG43, I returned it. Do think the XG91 is actually a better performer? The AD specs claim it only has 1 db higher gain than X43, even though the boom is 50% longer and the reflector a little bigger. Yeah.....I need all the luck I can get in order to see the Superbowl in HD. Your thoughts are appreciated. Last edited by zenbig42; 02-01-2007 at 05:27 PM.

02-01-2007, 09:15 PM	#149
tigerbangs Antenna Maven Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Springfield, MA Age: 55 Posts: 2,148	My thoughts? Stop eating granola and MOVE! __________________ Real men don't use indoor antennas; neither do real women!

02-01-2007, 09:23 PM	#150
GhettoShark I'm addicted to NFL Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 19	Tigerbangs, would I be able to pick up signals 80-100 miles away? I live in a relatively flat area without many obstructions. Thanks in advance! EDIT: And also, would it be possible to pick up signals from across Lake Michigan? __________________ Dish Network DishHD Bronze 50" Sony WEGA LCD Projection HDTV 57" Sony Rear Projection HDTV Dish 1000 Terk HDTVa antenna Congratulations to Super Bowl XLII Champions, the New York Giants!

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