lossless sound

jjclecky · 10-02-2009, 05:57 PM

can one really hear a difference in sound from a receiver that has all the decoding options vs pass thru sound from a receiver that doesnt have the decoding.

Loves2Watch · 10-02-2009, 06:14 PM

That depends on your equipment, the environment and speaker placement but in most cases, yes.

BIslander · 10-02-2009, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjclecky

can one really hear a difference in sound from a receiver that has all the decoding options vs pass thru sound from a receiver that doesnt have the decoding.

I'm not sure what you mean by "pass thru sound from a receiver that doesn't have the decoding". If you mean a player that decodes and sends PCM to a processor, there is no difference whatsoever. If the decoders work properly, and I've never seen anything to indicate that any devices have bad decoders, then the PCM produced by a player or receiver will be identical.

Except for rare cases with high end players like the Denon 3800BDCI, all processing is done by the receiver regardless of where the decoding is done. By processing, I mean bass management, distance adjustments, EQ, and the digital-to-analog conversion. In other words, the player doesn't do anything that would produce differences in the sound.

If you use the player's analog outputs, then there may well be differences because the player handles the processing with analog.

jjclecky · 10-03-2009, 06:12 AM

BIslander, I have a receiver that has pass thru "an older onkyo", and a older panny blu ray dmp bd30 which I think doesnt have tru hd and all the newer decoding , so I can not get true hd but it sounds good,if I was to upgrade to a newer receiver that has all the new decoding would i notice a big difference in sound?

BIslander · 10-03-2009, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjclecky

BIslander, I have a receiver that has pass thru "an older onkyo", and a older panny blu ray dmp bd30 which I think doesnt have tru hd and all the newer decoding , so I can not get true hd but it sounds good,if I was to upgrade to a newer receiver that has all the new decoding would i notice a big difference in sound?

I don't think so. You may not notice much difference at all. The lossy DD 5.1 and DTS tracks on BD are encoded at higher bitrates than on DVD and they sound great, rivalling lossless. You will get different opinions from others, of course.

Loves2Watch · 10-03-2009, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjclecky

I have a receiver that has pass thru "an older onkyo", and a older panny blu ray dmp bd30 which I think doesnt have tru hd and all the newer decoding , so I can not get true hd but it sounds good,if I was to upgrade to a newer receiver that has all the new decoding would i notice a big difference in sound?

See my first post...

BIslander · 10-03-2009, 01:12 PM

If you want substantive information, try this article in Home Entertainment Magazine:

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby...compressed_PCM

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any rigorous, controlled studies comparing lossless with the max bitrate lossy encodes on Blu-ray.

jjclecky · 10-03-2009, 04:53 PM

So I wonder why everyone is upgrading their receivers for better sound quality when the older receivers sound just as good as the newer ones with tru hd and dts? so basically my onkyo 506 and panny blu ray dmp bd30 would sound just as good as a newer models with all the decoding , does everyone agree?

**PFC5** · 10-03-2009, 06:28 PM

I hear improved sound with the HD audio (i.e. DD+, DTS-HD, DtHD & DTS-HD MA), but I have about 4K into my sound system. The difference is not huge but there is some improvement. If you do not spend a good amount of money for the speakers used, it is mostly a waste IMO to buy a new receiver just for the HD audio decoding.

HD Goofnut · 10-03-2009, 06:48 PM

I have less than $700 invested in my audio system and I can hear a distinct difference in DD and DTS versus the lossless codecs. However, I find it very hard to hear a difference in DD+ and the lossless codecs.

BIslander · 10-03-2009, 07:48 PM

Personal testimonials don't mean much. Self administered, sighted tests are inherently unreliable. And who knows how any of these systems are set up.

With that disclaimer, I will say I have about 5K in my sound system and I rarely hear much difference. But, sometimes lossless is clearly better - the PCM track on Black Hawk Down, for example. Once again, this is not a comparison of lossless and DVD. It's a comparison of lossless and the max bitrate legacy codecs on Blu-ray.

I use analog since my AVR lacks HDMI. You might consider getting a player with lossless decoders and analog outputs instead of a new receiver.

Techlord · 10-03-2009, 08:24 PM

Your speakers will be the limiting factor for sound quality, most people I know spend more money for their AV receiver than they spend on the speakers. The smart way is spend as much as you can for the speakers then start looking for an AV receiver that will drive them. If you were to buy a 5.1 speaker system and a new AV receiver, then upgrade later to a much more expensive receiver, the sound quality wouldn't be that much better by just getting a new receiver. If the only reason you want a new receiver is to be able to have Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio, then it's not worth it.

10-02-2009, 05:57 PM	#1
jjclecky High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 65	lossless sound can one really hear a difference in sound from a receiver that has all the decoding options vs pass thru sound from a receiver that doesnt have the decoding.

10-02-2009, 06:14 PM	#2
Loves2Watch Did I Do That? Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Omicron Persei 8 Posts: 16,620	That depends on your equipment, the environment and speaker placement but in most cases, yes. __________________ Friends don't let friends buy Korean brand TV's or Blu-ray players. Main HT Room - Panasonic PT-AE4000U, Draper Premier 119" 16:9 Projector Screen, Panasonic TH-85PF12U Plasma TV, 6 Conrad Johnson LP275M Amps, Anthem Statement D-2 Pre/Pro, 6 Thiel SCS4 Speakers, 2 REL T-1 Subs, Infinity Interlude 120S Sub, Simaudio MOON Orbiter Universal Disc Player, ELP Laser Turntable, 2 Dish Network ViP 622 DVR's, Oppo BDP-83 Blu-ray Player, Onkyo DV-HD805 HD DVD Player.

10-03-2009, 06:28 PM	#9
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 31,342	I hear improved sound with the HD audio (i.e. DD+, DTS-HD, DtHD & DTS-HD MA), but I have about 4K into my sound system. The difference is not huge but there is some improvement. If you do not spend a good amount of money for the speakers used, it is mostly a waste IMO to buy a new receiver just for the HD audio decoding. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5

10-03-2009, 06:48 PM	#10
HD Goofnut The Official HDF Reviewer Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Mississippi, U.S.A. Your resident Dune, Star Wars, and war film expert Age: 28 Posts: 7,538	I have less than $700 invested in my audio system and I can hear a distinct difference in DD and DTS versus the lossless codecs. However, I find it very hard to hear a difference in DD+ and the lossless codecs. __________________ Living Room Sharp LC-46SB57UN 46" 120Hz 1080p LCD (24fps)-Onkyo TX-SR606 7.1 Receiver-Onkyo SKS-HT540 7.1-DirecTV HR21-100 HD DVR-LG BH200 Super Blu-Toshiba HD-A20 Bedroom Sanyo DP46848 46" 1080p 60Hz LCD-DirecTV H23-100 HD-Maganvox NB500MG9-Toshiba HD-A2 Office HP 2159m 21.5" 1080p LCD-Logitech X-540 5.1-Sony 40 GB PS3-ASUS SBC-06D1S-U External BD Drive My Movie Collection 371~140 Latest BD Review: *The Princess and the Frog*

10-03-2009, 08:24 PM	#12
Techlord High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Orange County, California Posts: 1,277	Your speakers will be the limiting factor for sound quality, most people I know spend more money for their AV receiver than they spend on the speakers. The smart way is spend as much as you can for the speakers then start looking for an AV receiver that will drive them. If you were to buy a 5.1 speaker system and a new AV receiver, then upgrade later to a much more expensive receiver, the sound quality wouldn't be that much better by just getting a new receiver. If the only reason you want a new receiver is to be able to have Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio, then it's not worth it. __________________ I'll admit when I am wrong, why live in denial? I should have bought a Panasonic Plasma! Samsung LN52B750 240Hz LCD HDTV Oppo Digital BDP-83 Special Edition Denon AVR-5700 THX Ultra Certified Receiver M&K Sound LCR-750 THX Certified 5.1 Speaker System w/V-1250 THX Powered Subwoofer LCD's viewing angle issues seen here! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOYnAmDLXbY

10-03-2009, 06:12 AM	#4
jjclecky High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 65	BIslander, I have a receiver that has pass thru "an older onkyo", and a older panny blu ray dmp bd30 which I think doesnt have tru hd and all the newer decoding , so I can not get true hd but it sounds good,if I was to upgrade to a newer receiver that has all the new decoding would i notice a big difference in sound?

10-03-2009, 01:12 PM	#7
BIslander Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Bainbridge Island, WA Posts: 743	If you want substantive information, try this article in Home Entertainment Magazine: http://www.hemagazine.com/node/Dolby...compressed_PCM Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any rigorous, controlled studies comparing lossless with the max bitrate lossy encodes on Blu-ray.

10-03-2009, 04:53 PM	#8
jjclecky High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 65	So I wonder why everyone is upgrading their receivers for better sound quality when the older receivers sound just as good as the newer ones with tru hd and dts? so basically my onkyo 506 and panny blu ray dmp bd30 would sound just as good as a newer models with all the decoding , does everyone agree?

10-03-2009, 07:48 PM	#11
BIslander Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Bainbridge Island, WA Posts: 743	Personal testimonials don't mean much. Self administered, sighted tests are inherently unreliable. And who knows how any of these systems are set up. With that disclaimer, I will say I have about 5K in my sound system and I rarely hear much difference. But, sometimes lossless is clearly better - the PCM track on Black Hawk Down, for example. Once again, this is not a comparison of lossless and DVD. It's a comparison of lossless and the max bitrate legacy codecs on Blu-ray. I use analog since my AVR lacks HDMI. You might consider getting a player with lossless decoders and analog outputs instead of a new receiver.

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