Nobody Wants Blu-ray -- Study

Chris Gerhard · 08-13-2008, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottnot

That's absurd!

Consider two DVDs of the same movie;

The first, a BD DVD which has been "well mastered" contains the movie at 1080p.

The second, a SD DVD which has been equally "well mastered" contains the movie at 480i.

Now, playing the SD DVD simply reproduces the entire content of the DVD, neither adding nor subtracting any information.

The content on the BD DVD, however, must be scaled from 1080p to 480i by the BD player in order to be displayed on the 1080i set.
It is unlikely that the scaler in the BD player will be as good as the mastering equipment that was used to manufacture the SD DVD, so it follows that the BD DVD on a "standard 480i set" may look worse; or it may look the same; but there is no reason why it can possibly look better than the "well mastered" SD DVD.

I am sorry this is entirely wrong. A properly mastered DVD is limited by bitrates and other format specifications and won't look as good as a properly mastered Blu-ray disc even at 480i on a good NTSC 480i display. If your theory was correct, films wouldn't have been mastered at HD resolution before being encoded for DVD. Start with the highest possible source before downrezing to 480i is preferrable. Blu-ray players can do, although I won't disagree some don't, a great job with 1080p to 480i conversions. With any digital to analog conversion, you want to start with the best possible digital source and a 1080p Blu-ray source is a better starting point than a 480i DVD source, that is just the way it is. Will the differences be worth much? Not in my opinion, but that doesn't mean there are no differences or the lesser source is the better choice. Look to all factors for why the 1080p Blu-ray disc is the better choice, color accuracy, detail, resolution, and all other technical specifications. If you are talking about a 480i digital display and no digital to analog conversion, I don't know, I haven't ever seen one and would have to look at the specifics for that consideration. I am assuming you are making this claim regarding the typical analog display, some of which can be capable of better than DVD specs over analog connections to begin with.

Chris

electrictroy · 08-13-2008, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard

I am assuming you are making this claim regarding the typical analog display, some of which can be capable of better than DVD specs over analog connections to begin with.

Yes we are talking about the typical "old" television using analog inputs like S-video. That was the exact point I was making: You don't need to dump your old analog set to enjoy an improvement with Bluray. Bluray will look better than a DVD, even in 480i.

**rbinck** · 08-13-2008, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by electrictroy

No it's not absurd. My DVD of Matrix had compression artifacts (especially in the dark scenes) whereas the HD-DVD did not. Therefore I received a visible improvement by upgrading to HD-DVD, even while watching in 480i.

A few more examples where the same was true (the HD-DVD in 480i looked better than the DVD): Blade Runner, Apollo 13, Mission Impossible. This is the direct result of HD-DVD being encoded at an average 20-25 megabit/s versus DVD only being an average 3-4 megabit/s.

You got a HD DVD player?

electrictroy · 08-13-2008, 04:47 PM

Yeah last year (used on ebay). I plan to get Bluray after it starts filling-up with television shows I want (like Stargate or Galactica) and/or after the PS3 to drop to $200.

I sold my two D-VHS recorders. $1000 in my pocket was too good a deal to pass-up. I netted about $600 in profit over what I originally paid.

jimbo41 · 09-04-2008, 09:22 PM

IMO I think it might be too late for people ( "the masses") to adopt blu ray. Only true enthusiast or people with disposable incomes will be the ones keeping the format going . I base this on our past history with the music industry and technology! Remember 8 track? Then cassette tapes? I (as were many people) was very reluctant to switch to CD's! Until I heard how good a 1000.00 sony CD player sounded remember? I quickly dumped my cassettes plus equipment,went digital before all my friends and family! The cost were more than 2x in some cases but for enthusiasts the convenience, durability,improved sound quality were all worth it. I know many people who took 5-7 years to switch over! I was perfectly happy with my 1000+ CD's then in the late 90's early 2000 Guess what? along comes apple with it's ipod and the rest is tech history! I still have all my cd's even though they have been duped on my laptop for years I refuse to part with them! I have hauled them around in boxes through 2 moves! They still sound better than alot of music files. My point is I see the same path for video content! Betamax, VHS, SVHS, DVD. blu-ray ??? But the timing may be too late for "the masses" to adopt blu-ray> it is only a matter of time for us to all have dedicated mass storage devices in home to purchase dowloads of our favorite video content In standard or HD! I would pay 5.00 or so for a digital movie. More household have computers and sat/cable tv right now without buying another player and more discs making it appealing to "the masses" I saw a 4 terabyte media storage device a couple of years ago in a home theatre mag. article it was 25000.00 how much are they now? So, I feel disc formats of all types will be obsolete in a few short years! We will be carrying most of our movies in our pockets to bring over to our friends' houses on movie night! That's my 2cents C-YA

JoeRoscoe · 09-05-2008, 02:09 AM

Many consider BluRay (and HD-DVD) as nothing more than a niche-market item but with greater saturation than LaserDisc...mostly due to the game platforms (PS3 and XBox).
Taking away PS3 from BluRay and the heavy discounts HD-DVD (Toshiba) offered, I'm guessing that overall sales from BOTH formats would not be much more than LaserDisc sold at it's best (just a guess mind you)...DVD upped the ante and LaserDisc soon disappeared...just as I think BluRay will, when true high-speed HiDef downloads and streaming HiDef media appear and up the ante again.
Sure PS3 and XBox will survive (and their successors) but only as what they were intended to due, be a gaming platform first and foremost.

Razor05 · 09-08-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeRoscoe

Many consider BluRay (and HD-DVD) as nothing more than a niche-market item but with greater saturation than LaserDisc...mostly due to the game platforms (PS3 and XBox).
Taking away PS3 from BluRay and the heavy discounts HD-DVD (Toshiba) offered, I'm guessing that overall sales from BOTH formats would not be much more than LaserDisc sold at it's best (just a guess mind you)...DVD upped the ante and LaserDisc soon disappeared...just as I think BluRay will, when true high-speed HiDef downloads and streaming HiDef media appear and up the ante again.
Sure PS3 and XBox will survive (and their successors) but only as what they were intended to due, be a gaming platform first and foremost.

Agreed. The PS3 was a good vehicle for Blu-Ray. It's too bad the consumer didn't have the final say.

coupcoup · 09-13-2008, 07:59 PM

I agree. Sony products are way too expensive.

The_Omega_Man · 09-18-2008, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeRoscoe

Many consider BluRay (and HD-DVD) as nothing more than a niche-market item but with greater saturation than LaserDisc...mostly due to the game platforms (PS3 and XBox).
Taking away PS3 from BluRay and the heavy discounts HD-DVD (Toshiba) offered, I'm guessing that overall sales from BOTH formats would not be much more than LaserDisc sold at it's best (just a guess mind you)...DVD upped the ante and LaserDisc soon disappeared...just as I think BluRay will, when true high-speed HiDef downloads and streaming HiDef media appear and up the ante again.
Sure PS3 and XBox will survive (and their successors) but only as what they were intended to due, be a gaming platform first and foremost.

This is certainly one possible outcome.

Another is that the entry price for basic BD movie playback will hit a price point that sits well with the general consumers. And BD gets resuscitated and lives a full and healthy (less profitable) life.

zip2play · 10-26-2008, 09:23 AM

Quote:

I still have all my cd's even though they have been duped on my laptop for years I refuse to part with them! I have hauled them around in boxes through 2 moves

Heck,
I'm STILL hauling around 1,000 LP's I cannot bear to part with!

I will accept Blu-Ray when I it becomes more commonplace. I looked through all Netlix' offerering of around 800 titles and had a lot of trouble finding 5 that I might rent...many I've seen, and most I would NEVER watch. I would never consider actually BUYING a DVD disc of any kind; when a movie is watched I am through with the plastic and do not want another COLLECTION.

The 800 current titles is just not enough to be enticing $200 worth. Perhaps when it hits the 8,000 or 18,000 mark it will be THE technology and I'll dutifully buy the box.

HD Goofnut · 10-26-2008, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zip2play

Heck,
I'm STILL hauling around 1,000 LP's I cannot bear to part with!

I will accept Blu-Ray when I it becomes more commonplace. I looked through all Netlix' offerering of around 800 titles and had a lot of trouble finding 5 that I might rent...many I've seen, and most I would NEVER watch. I would never consider actually BUYING a DVD disc of any kind; when a movie is watched I am through with the plastic and do not want another COLLECTION.

The 800 current titles is just not enough to be enticing $200 worth. Perhaps when it hits the 8,000 or 18,000 mark it will be THE technology and I'll dutifully buy the box.

I am not thoroughly sure on BD as a lasting format, but I can tell you that the 1920 by 1080 resolution will be the norm for at least the next 10 years and probably longer.

mytime · 10-26-2008, 03:16 PM

It doesn't really matter. I bought HD-DVD and it died. I bought Blu-Ray and if it dies I will most likely buy whatever replaces it. I can't help it, I'm a sucker for new formats I guess.

Loves2Watch · 10-26-2008, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mytime

It doesn't really matter. I bought HD-DVD and it died. I bought Blu-Ray and if it dies I will most likely buy whatever replaces it. I can't help it, I'm a sucker for new formats I guess.

You ARE an Early Adopter as are many here including myself.

zip2play · 10-27-2008, 08:20 AM

The problem isn't really the new FORMAT, yes I agree that 1080p is the future, it's the software available for the format.

As it stands now, there just isn't near enough quality product available in Blu-Ray unless one loves everything new that is released to the theaters. For me, I have no use for Star Wars XXIII, Matrix 6, Still Slightly Pretty Woman, or X-Men to the X power or to AGAIN watch the classics Ben-Hur, Virginia Woolf, Close Encounters , 2001, Citizen Kane just to see extra pixels.

I guess part of the problem is that the best movies today aren't being done as Hollywood blockbusters and thus are still coming out in Standard format only.

If I sprang for Blu-Ray, I'd be through the rentals that I want from Netflix in under 2 months.

There has to be a certain level of product to entice me to pile on another STB and it will take several years to amass this level.

HD Goofnut · 10-27-2008, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zip2play

The problem isn't really the new FORMAT, yes I agree that 1080p is the future, it's the software available for the format.

As it stands now, there just isn't near enough quality product available in Blu-Ray unless one loves everything new that is released to the theaters. For me, I have no use for Star Wars XXIII, Matrix 6, Still Slightly Pretty Woman, or X-Men to the X power or to AGAIN watch the classics Ben-Hur, Virginia Woolf, Close Encounters , 2001, Citizen Kane just to see extra pixels.

I guess part of the problem is that the best movies today aren't being done as Hollywood blockbusters and thus are still coming out in Standard format only.

If I sprang for Blu-Ray, I'd be through the rentals that I want from Netflix in under 2 months.

There has to be a certain level of product to entice me to pile on another STB and it will take several years to amass this level.

I felt just like you did until I saw several titles on HD DVD and then HDM changed my mind forever and I chose not to revert back to SD DVD. So yes I have nearly 300 SD DVDs, but I had nearly 400 before eBay and I haven't bought a SD DVD in many months. The difference is not just pixels and audio, there is also vast improvements in color, contrast, and brightness. You ever watch a SD DVD or SD broadcast on an HDTV and notice how dark the picture is? You never have this issue with BD/HD DVD and to be honest only a small number of HD channels over CAB/SAT look even close to BD/HD DVD.

08-13-2008, 04:47 PM	#34
electrictroy Wii 480p looks good to me Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,895	Yeah last year (used on ebay). I plan to get Bluray after it starts filling-up with television shows I want (like Stargate or Galactica) and/or after the PS3 to drop to $200. I sold my two D-VHS recorders. $1000 in my pocket was too good a deal to pass-up. I netted about $600 in profit over what I originally paid. __________________ TV Band/whitespace Devices will block my Baltimore/Philly stations. No more channels 2,3,6,10,11,12,13,17,35,45,57,61,65 Last edited by electrictroy; 08-13-2008 at 05:09 PM.

10-26-2008, 03:16 PM	#42
mytime Nanerpuss Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Jackson, Missouri Posts: 5,039	It doesn't really matter. I bought HD-DVD and it died. I bought Blu-Ray and if it dies I will most likely buy whatever replaces it. I can't help it, I'm a sucker for new formats I guess. __________________ Gargle hag gag gargle

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09-04-2008, 09:22 PM	#35
jimbo41 pentavrit "the meadows" Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 19	IMO I think it might be too late for people ( "the masses") to adopt blu ray. Only true enthusiast or people with disposable incomes will be the ones keeping the format going . I base this on our past history with the music industry and technology! Remember 8 track? Then cassette tapes? I (as were many people) was very reluctant to switch to CD's! Until I heard how good a 1000.00 sony CD player sounded remember? I quickly dumped my cassettes plus equipment,went digital before all my friends and family! The cost were more than 2x in some cases but for enthusiasts the convenience, durability,improved sound quality were all worth it. I know many people who took 5-7 years to switch over! I was perfectly happy with my 1000+ CD's then in the late 90's early 2000 Guess what? along comes apple with it's ipod and the rest is tech history! I still have all my cd's even though they have been duped on my laptop for years I refuse to part with them! I have hauled them around in boxes through 2 moves! They still sound better than alot of music files. My point is I see the same path for video content! Betamax, VHS, SVHS, DVD. blu-ray ??? But the timing may be too late for "the masses" to adopt blu-ray> it is only a matter of time for us to all have dedicated mass storage devices in home to purchase dowloads of our favorite video content In standard or HD! I would pay 5.00 or so for a digital movie. More household have computers and sat/cable tv right now without buying another player and more discs making it appealing to "the masses" I saw a 4 terabyte media storage device a couple of years ago in a home theatre mag. article it was 25000.00 how much are they now? So, I feel disc formats of all types will be obsolete in a few short years! We will be carrying most of our movies in our pockets to bring over to our friends' houses on movie night! That's my 2cents C-YA

09-05-2008, 02:09 AM	#36
JoeRoscoe Just a average Joe Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Pennsylvania Age: 59 Posts: 154	Many consider BluRay (and HD-DVD) as nothing more than a niche-market item but with greater saturation than LaserDisc...mostly due to the game platforms (PS3 and XBox). Taking away PS3 from BluRay and the heavy discounts HD-DVD (Toshiba) offered, I'm guessing that overall sales from BOTH formats would not be much more than LaserDisc sold at it's best (just a guess mind you)...DVD upped the ante and LaserDisc soon disappeared...just as I think BluRay will, when true high-speed HiDef downloads and streaming HiDef media appear and up the ante again. Sure PS3 and XBox will survive (and their successors) but only as what they were intended to due, be a gaming platform first and foremost.

09-13-2008, 07:59 PM	#38
coupcoup My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8	I agree. Sony products are way too expensive.

10-27-2008, 08:20 AM	#44
zip2play TV...INDISPENSIBLE Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 244	The problem isn't really the new FORMAT, yes I agree that 1080p is the future, it's the software available for the format. As it stands now, there just isn't near enough quality product available in Blu-Ray unless one loves everything new that is released to the theaters. For me, I have no use for Star Wars XXIII, Matrix 6, Still Slightly Pretty Woman, or X-Men to the X power or to AGAIN watch the classics Ben-Hur, Virginia Woolf, Close Encounters , 2001, Citizen Kane just to see extra pixels. I guess part of the problem is that the best movies today aren't being done as Hollywood blockbusters and thus are still coming out in Standard format only. If I sprang for Blu-Ray, I'd be through the rentals that I want from Netflix in under 2 months. There has to be a certain level of product to entice me to pile on another STB and it will take several years to amass this level.