Does your HDTV support 1:1 pixel mapping?

eHDMI · 08-21-2007, 07:26 AM

Even if you don't know what 1:1 pixel mapping is, you probably think your TV supports it. If your TV does support this viewing mode, odds are it isn't on by default. 1:1 pixel mapping means your TV is capable of displaying the image sent to it pixel for pixel, without scaling or processing the video in any way. In other words, if your TV is fed 1920x1080p, then it displays 1920x1080p. Believe it or not usually your digital LCD, DLP or even Plasma takes the 1920x1080 image, shaves off a few lines and displays it. The reason isn't a good one, but it's 'cause TVs have had overscan so long that when digital TVs came along they actually engineered overscan into the set. This is not the case at all on computer monitors, where even one missing line is noticed. So if you want to see if your TV is capable of showing you the whole picture, look it up in your manual for a "pc mode" or even "dot by dot", or just head over to the AVSForum for a comprehensive list of HDTVs that support this elusive feature.

Source

ah802 · 08-21-2007, 06:11 PM

I went browsing afield looking for the 'master 1:1' pixel mapping list over at AVS and only cam up with forum of some panels that do and some that don't.. with a lot of questions about custom drivers.

http://www./avs-vb/showthread.php?t=...+pixel+mapping

oops... here it is.. still a lot of ??, ?? hardly enough info.

http://www./avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748074

We really do need a master list of panels that do 1:1 (either driver fooled or Menu driven) but it looks like new panels come faster than users can report. Pixel Mapping is the only way to go for home theater and PC usage. Hence new topic.... 1080p panels that support 1:1 mapping.

billinprinceto · 08-21-2007, 06:27 PM

Probably the vast majority of HD sets boast "display resolution" of 1366 X 768 pixels. I must admit, although having read some posts here and elsewhere that commented on this, it is not clear to me exactly what happens when, let's for the sake of discussion say, a 720p signal is input to the TV. The input is 1280 X 720; the "display resolution" is set for 1280 X 720 . . . so:

what are all them extra pixels for?

where did 1366 X 768 come from?

what am I really watching?

Lee Stewart · 08-21-2007, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billinprinceto

Probably the vast majority of HD sets boast "display resolution" of 1366 X 768 pixels. I must admit, although having read some posts here and elsewhere that commented on this, it is not clear to me exactly what happens when, let's for the sake of discussion say, a 720p signal is input to the TV. The input is 1280 X 720; the "display resolution" is set for 1280 X 720 . . . so:

what are all them extra pixels for?

where did 1366 X 768 come from?

what am I really watching?

HD from "OTA" comes in two forms:

1280x720P
1920x1080I

The native resolution of a display can be:

1024x768
1280x720
1366x768
1920x1080

Just to name a few.

If the HD signal is lower than the native resolution of the HDTV - the scaler in the HDTV scales it up to the NR. If the HD signal exceeds the NR of the display, them the scaler scales down the signal to match the NR.

billinprinceto · 08-21-2007, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

HD from "OTA" comes in two forms:

1280x720P
1920x1080I

The native resolution of a display can be:

1024x768
1280x720
1366x768
1920x1080

Just to name a few.

If the HD signal is lower than the native resolution of the HDTV - the scaler in the HDTV scales it up to the NR. If the HD signal exceeds the NR of the display, them the scaler scales down the signal to match the NR.

Gosh, maybe I'm just dense, but that doesn't really answer the questitons that I thought I asked:

First, I tried to use 720p as an example to keep it simple, but, since you bring up 1920 X 1080: Yep, they broadcast at 1920 X 1080, the TV receives it at 1920 X 1080, and the TV displays it at 1920 X 1080 . . . Voila!! No confusion.

However:

Why, then, would a TV manufacturer build a TV with a 1366 X 768 in the first place - or in other words, "where did 1366 X 768 come from?

Or another way: if I'm watching 1280 X 720, why would they make the screen 1366 X 768 . . . seems that moving a 1280 X 720 image directly to the display without any scaling would not only be less expensive, but would provide an overall better quality picture.

Anybody know?

Lee Stewart · 08-21-2007, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billinprinceto

Gosh, maybe I'm just dense, but that doesn't really answer the questitons that I thought I asked:

First, I tried to use 720p as an example to keep it simple, but, since you bring up 1920 X 1080: Yep, they broadcast at 1920 X 1080, the TV receives it at 1920 X 1080, and the TV displays it at 1920 X 1080 . . . Voila!! No confusion.

However:

Why, then, would a TV manufacturer build a TV with a 1366 X 768 in the first place - or in other words, "where did 1366 X 768 come from?
Or another way: if I'm watching 1280 X 720, why would they make the screen 1366 X 768 . . . seems that moving a 1280 X 720 image directly to the display without any scaling would not only be less expensive, but would provide an overall better quality picture.

Anybody know?

It is cheaper to build a 1366x768 NR FPD than it is a 1920x1080 FPD.

Where did this exact resoution come from? Sony used it in their LCD projectors about 7-8 years ago. It was the highest resolution offered at the time over 1280x720.

This what you wanted or are you still dense?

billinprinceto · 08-21-2007, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

It is cheaper to build a 1366x768 NR FPD than it is a 1920x1080 FPD.

Where did this exact resoution come from? Sony used it in their LCD projectors about 7-8 years ago. It was the highest resolution offered at the time over 1280x720.

This what you wanted or are you still dense?

Still dense, if you prefer to look at it that way.

Yes, of course, I would expect that any fool would know that "it is cheaper to build a 1366x768 NR FPD than it is to build a 1920x1080 FPD." But why build with a 1366 X 768 instead of using 1280 X 720: as I stated earlier the signal is feeding at 1280 X 720 so why not just use a 1280 X 720 NR display and avoid the scaling? Result: lower cost; higher PQ. Hard to conceive that 7% (768/720=1.07) higher resolution makes any sense especially since the final PQ is probably lost in scaling.

and Lee, if you're going to take another stab at this, please avoid any reference to 1920 as I intentionally left it out of the original question in (what now seems to have been a futile) attemt to avoide obfuscation.

Lee Stewart · 08-22-2007, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billinprinceto

Still dense, if you prefer to look at it that way.

Yes, of course, I would expect that any fool would know that "it is cheaper to build a 1366x768 NR FPD than it is to build a 1920x1080 FPD." But why build with a 1366 X 768 instead of using 1280 X 720: as I stated earlier the signal is feeding at 1280 X 720 so why not just use a 1280 X 720 NR display and avoid the scaling? Result: lower cost; higher PQ. Hard to conceive that 7% (768/720=1.07) higher resolution makes any sense especially since the final PQ is probably lost in scaling.

and Lee, if you're going to take another stab at this, please avoid any reference to 1920 as I intentionally left it out of the original question in (what now seems to have been a futile) attemt to avoide obfuscation.

Nope . . no more stabs or posts with you. You are officially on my IGNORE list. Good luck.

electrictroy · 08-22-2007, 05:53 AM

Buy a multiscan CRT (like your PC uses).

It can display any resolution w/o having to rescale/distort the image.

pappylap · 08-22-2007, 07:07 AM

Yup, My $150,000.00 home theater room is going to look great with a 19" computer monitor as its centerpiece....all the neighbors are going to rave about my setup....

ercjncpr · 08-22-2007, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billinprinceto

Gosh, maybe I'm just dense, but that doesn't really answer the questitons that I thought I asked:

First, I tried to use 720p as an example to keep it simple, but, since you bring up 1920 X 1080: Yep, they broadcast at 1920 X 1080, the TV receives it at 1920 X 1080, and the TV displays it at 1920 X 1080 . . . Voila!! No confusion.

However:

Why, then, would a TV manufacturer build a TV with a 1366 X 768 in the first place - or in other words, "where did 1366 X 768 come from?

Or another way: if I'm watching 1280 X 720, why would they make the screen 1366 X 768 . . . seems that moving a 1280 X 720 image directly to the display without any scaling would not only be less expensive, but would provide an overall better quality picture.

Anybody know?

My Philips 19 inch is 1440x900, 900 being 180 lines fewer than 1080 and 180 lines greater than 720..the scan type is progressive. Personally I cannot see a difference when I watch a 1080i program or a 720p program.

**rbinck** · 08-22-2007, 10:01 AM

I will take a stab at this.

On the 1366x768 resolution, for years a popular resolution in use was the 4:3 resolution of 1024x768. Why that resolution had to do with the memory layout internally on video cards. Anyway, the 1366x768 resolution is the widescreen version of a 768 line display to maintain square pixels. Plasmas were the first to adopt this resolution because of their early use in airports and similar presentation displays. The software was more easily adapted to 1366x768 from 1024x768 than it would have been going to 1280x720. Originally plasmas were RGBHV inputs and plasmas later added the HDTV inputs and scalers. The early Pioneer plasmas actually had a plug in A/V card you added for HDTV use.

As far as the overscan or 1:1 pixel mapping goes, all fixed pixel HDTVs and monitors that are going to be used for a HDTV signal will generally have a scaler to add the overscan, thus destroying the 1:1 pixel mapping. Some of the early DLPs and LCD projections actually had "pixels behind the bezel" to accommodate the overscan and it was a physical adjustment to get the overscan gone, but it allowed for 1:1 pixel mapping. Many PC drivers used a technique they called a "resolution within a resolution" to reduce the desktop to the visible pixels to maintain the 1:1 pixel mapping. Lately they all pretty much use scalers to add the overscan.

So what do you see if your display actually displays 1:1 pixel mapping? Video displays from a computer will show just as though they were shown on a computer monitor. But video from broadcast may show video noise, black bars or even colored lines at the edges of the display. For example, on the Tonite Show on NBC when I set my display to 1:1 it has a light green vertical line on the left side of the picture. Sometimes there is a black bar on the left and bottom of the picture and sometimes there is a yellow line at the top of the picture. That is with HD pictures. When they switch to SD for commercials, often there will be blinking white dashes at the top of the picture and often there will be a black bar across the bottom of the SD picture.

When viewing composite or s-video none of this exists because the 1:1 only functions with the HD inputs and there is overscan on those inputs.

I can turn the overscan on and all of the stuff at the edges will disappear, but I also loose about 5% of the picture and the detail is noticeable worse due to the scaling.

I will try to get some photos of the various screen examples and add them to my blog in the near future.

I am using a 1080p display.

billinprinceto · 08-22-2007, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbinck

I will take a stab at this.
On the 1366x768 resolution, for years a popular resolution in use was the 4:3 resolution of 1024x768. Why that resolution had to do with the memory layout internally on video cards. Anyway, the 1366x768 resolution is the widescreen version of a 768 line display to maintain square pixels. Plasmas were the first to adopt this resolution because of their early use in airports and similar presentation displays. The software was more easily adapted to 1366x768 from 1024x768 than it would have been going to 1280x720.

Yes, that is the sort of info I was hoping to get. Still very convoluted and confusing, (the facts, that is, not the presentation) but at least a "reasonable" explaination of how this "strange" resolution (1366x768) came to be the de facto standard for so many HDTVs.

Thanks

Type A · 08-22-2007, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pappylap

Yup, My $150,000.00 home theater room is going to look great with a 19" computer monitor as its centerpiece....all the neighbors are going to rave about my setup....

LMAO

electrictroy · 08-23-2007, 03:58 AM

I'm LMAO too. I'm LMAO at Pappy Lap who would waste $150,000 on a home theater room. (And people call me a nerd; even I am not THAT nerdy.) "Get a life!" - William Shatner

My suggestion of a CRT is a perfectly valid suggestion. Lots of people on this forum are using CRTs for their home systems.

08-21-2007, 07:26 AM	#1
eHDMI Vizio 37 LCD Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,648	Does your HDTV support 1:1 pixel mapping? Even if you don't know what 1:1 pixel mapping is, you probably think your TV supports it. If your TV does support this viewing mode, odds are it isn't on by default. 1:1 pixel mapping means your TV is capable of displaying the image sent to it pixel for pixel, without scaling or processing the video in any way. In other words, if your TV is fed 1920x1080p, then it displays 1920x1080p. Believe it or not usually your digital LCD, DLP or even Plasma takes the 1920x1080 image, shaves off a few lines and displays it. The reason isn't a good one, but it's 'cause TVs have had overscan so long that when digital TVs came along they actually engineered overscan into the set. This is not the case at all on computer monitors, where even one missing line is noticed. So if you want to see if your TV is capable of showing you the whole picture, look it up in your manual for a "pc mode" or even "dot by dot", or just head over to the AVSForum for a comprehensive list of HDTVs that support this elusive feature. Source __________________ Discount HDTV Accessories HDFury

08-21-2007, 06:27 PM	#3
billinprinceto High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,121	Which Leads to the Obvious Question: Probably the vast majority of HD sets boast "display resolution" of 1366 X 768 pixels. I must admit, although having read some posts here and elsewhere that commented on this, it is not clear to me exactly what happens when, let's for the sake of discussion say, a 720p signal is input to the TV. The input is 1280 X 720; the "display resolution" is set for 1280 X 720 . . . so: what are all them extra pixels for? where did 1366 X 768 come from? what am I really watching?

08-22-2007, 05:53 AM	#9
electrictroy Wii 480p looks good to me Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,895	Buy a multiscan CRT (like your PC uses). It can display any resolution w/o having to rescale/distort the image. __________________ TV Band/whitespace Devices will block my Baltimore/Philly stations. No more channels 2,3,6,10,11,12,13,17,35,45,57,61,65

08-22-2007, 07:07 AM	#10
pappylap Poopmaster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Way over Yonder Age: 4 Posts: 2,879	Yup, My $150,000.00 home theater room is going to look great with a 19" computer monitor as its centerpiece....all the neighbors are going to rave about my setup.... __________________ Bar Wench...Where's my Waffle! You can checkout anytime you like but you can never leave.." 50"Pioneer KURO 111FD Pro Elite Pioneer BD320 Blu-ray player Pioneer VSX-919AH A/V Receiver 32" & 37" Olevia LCDs Sony DHG HDD 500 gig DVR Samsung DTBH260 Digital Tuner One Roll of Charmin Quilted Plus in each Bathroom...

08-22-2007, 10:01 AM	#12
rbinck Administrator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Katy, Texas Posts: 12,338	I will take a stab at this. On the 1366x768 resolution, for years a popular resolution in use was the 4:3 resolution of 1024x768. Why that resolution had to do with the memory layout internally on video cards. Anyway, the 1366x768 resolution is the widescreen version of a 768 line display to maintain square pixels. Plasmas were the first to adopt this resolution because of their early use in airports and similar presentation displays. The software was more easily adapted to 1366x768 from 1024x768 than it would have been going to 1280x720. Originally plasmas were RGBHV inputs and plasmas later added the HDTV inputs and scalers. The early Pioneer plasmas actually had a plug in A/V card you added for HDTV use. As far as the overscan or 1:1 pixel mapping goes, all fixed pixel HDTVs and monitors that are going to be used for a HDTV signal will generally have a scaler to add the overscan, thus destroying the 1:1 pixel mapping. Some of the early DLPs and LCD projections actually had "pixels behind the bezel" to accommodate the overscan and it was a physical adjustment to get the overscan gone, but it allowed for 1:1 pixel mapping. Many PC drivers used a technique they called a "resolution within a resolution" to reduce the desktop to the visible pixels to maintain the 1:1 pixel mapping. Lately they all pretty much use scalers to add the overscan. So what do you see if your display actually displays 1:1 pixel mapping? Video displays from a computer will show just as though they were shown on a computer monitor. But video from broadcast may show video noise, black bars or even colored lines at the edges of the display. For example, on the Tonite Show on NBC when I set my display to 1:1 it has a light green vertical line on the left side of the picture. Sometimes there is a black bar on the left and bottom of the picture and sometimes there is a yellow line at the top of the picture. That is with HD pictures. When they switch to SD for commercials, often there will be blinking white dashes at the top of the picture and often there will be a black bar across the bottom of the SD picture. When viewing composite or s-video none of this exists because the 1:1 only functions with the HD inputs and there is overscan on those inputs. I can turn the overscan on and all of the stuff at the edges will disappear, but I also loose about 5% of the picture and the detail is noticeable worse due to the scaling. I will try to get some photos of the various screen examples and add them to my blog in the near future. I am using a 1080p display. __________________ www.highdefinitionblog.com www.BlogOfHawaii.com Last edited by rbinck; 08-22-2007 at 10:05 AM.

08-21-2007, 06:11 PM	#2
ah802 Visual Arts Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,241	I went browsing afield looking for the 'master 1:1' pixel mapping list over at AVS and only cam up with forum of some panels that do and some that don't.. with a lot of questions about custom drivers. http://www./avs-vb/showthread.php?t=...+pixel+mapping oops... here it is.. still a lot of ??, ?? hardly enough info. http://www./avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748074 We really do need a master list of panels that do 1:1 (either driver fooled or Menu driven) but it looks like new panels come faster than users can report. Pixel Mapping is the only way to go for home theater and PC usage. Hence new topic.... 1080p panels that support 1:1 mapping.

08-23-2007, 03:58 AM	#15
electrictroy Wii 480p looks good to me Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,895	I'm LMAO too. I'm LMAO at Pappy Lap who would waste $150,000 on a home theater room. (And people call me a nerd; even I am not THAT nerdy.) "Get a life!" - William Shatner My suggestion of a CRT is a perfectly valid suggestion. Lots of people on this forum are using CRTs for their home systems. __________________ TV Band/whitespace Devices will block my Baltimore/Philly stations. No more channels 2,3,6,10,11,12,13,17,35,45,57,61,65 Last edited by electrictroy; 08-23-2007 at 04:01 AM.

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