Toshiba's XDE DVD players won't hurt Blu-ray Disc

Bravestime · 08-29-2008, 04:32 PM

Quote:

When Toshiba announced its new XDE DVD player promising it could convert the picture quality of standard DVDs up to the high definition, industry watchers took note.

The company has been a champion of video technologies for years and its own high definition disc standard, HD DVD (high definition DVD), had been beaten as the HD successor to DVDs earlier in the year by Sony's Blu-ray Disc standard.

It looked like maybe the XDE DVD player was a way for Toshiba to take some revenge on Sony.

Toshiba has already announced a loss of ¥108.5 billion (US$992.2 million) related to its withdrawal from the HD DVD business and said it expects further losses.

But despite some nice technology aboard the XDE DVD player and a lower price, there are several reasons to believe it won't hurt Blu-ray Disc at all.

"The impact will likely be minimal," said Ross Rubin, director of industry analysis for consumer technology at The NPD Group.

"There is now great industry support behind Blu-ray and the format is moving forward with enhancements that move beyond high-definition such as the BD-Live spec that integrates Internet connectivity options with the disc," he said.

One of the main problems is that DVD technology simply does not measure up to Blu-ray Disc. A person buying an XDE DVD player or any other upconverting DVD player is really making a choice to accept a nice visual experience at a lower cost.

"The reality is that when you start with standard definition, there's only so much you can do to it to make it look better at a higher resolution," said Jake Richter, analyst at Jon Peddie Research.

"The best upscaling technology in the world can't make average quality standard definition content look like high quality HD content because the content just isn't there," he added.

Still, Toshiba's new player strikes a few chords on the economic front.

Pinched by high gas prices, a declining housing market and a greater jobless rate than in the past few years, people may choose to buy DVD upconverters so they can keep using DVD collections they've spent years building.

XDE DVD players cost about half the price of a Blu-ray Disc player.

"Blu-ray is too expensive," said Michelle Abraham, principal analyst at In-Stat. Consumers are interested in Blu-ray Disc, but they are looking more at players that cost less than US$200, she said.

XDE DVD players come with a suggested price of $149.99, which while lower than Blu-ray Disc player prices, is higher than many other DVD players that also upconvert picture quality.

Sony's DVP NS700H/B is also billed as a DVD upconverter that raises picture quality to the best HD levels, but it only costs $79.99, according to Sony.

One advantage the XDE DVD player has over other upconverters is the ability to detect what kind of HDTV it's being used on, and upconvert DVD pictures to the same quality as the TV, 720p/1080i or 1080p.

And there is a wide divergence in quality among DVD players that claim to raise DVD picture quality to high definition.

Link: http://www.networkworld.com/news/200...t.html?hpg1=bn

Lee Stewart · 08-29-2008, 05:20 PM

Yes - the XDE - like all UP DVD players will hurt BD. The president of WHV has already gone on record as saying that.

The world is NOT made up of videophiles - no matter what people here on these forums think.

bmore · 08-29-2008, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Yes - the XDE - like all UP DVD players will hurt BD. The president of WHV has already gone on record as saying that.

The world is NOT made up of videophiles - no matter what people here on these forums think .

Which is exactly why the XDE, at $149, specifically won't hurt bluray (as a single player).

Because only videophiles are really going to get behind the XDE.

Upconverters as a whole will "hurt" bluray, but the XDE will be a relatively insignifcant fraction of the "hurt" from upconverters overall...since the XDE is largely in part targeting the same videophiles you speak of.

Lee Stewart · 08-29-2008, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmore

Which is exactly why the XDE, at $149, specifically won't hurt bluray (as a single player).

Because only videophiles are really going to get behind the XDE.

Upconverters as a whole will "hurt" bluray, but the XDE will be a relatively insignifcant fraction of the "hurt" from upconverters overall...since the XDE is largely in part targeting the same videophiles you speak of.

- So $50 now seperates a Videophile from an Average Joe?

bmore · 08-29-2008, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

- So $50 now seperates a Videophile from an Average Joe?

Maybe. Maybe not. But $120 probably does. As $100 probably does.

How many of those 4.5 million upconverters were of the $100 variety?

And how many were of the $75, $50 and under variety?

Lee Stewart · 08-29-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmore

Maybe. Maybe not. But $120 probably does. As $100 probably does.

How many of those 4.5 million upconverters were of the $100 variety?

And how many were of the $75, $50 and under variety?

Good questions - of which there is no data that I know that exists to answer them.

But then Tier 1 CEM's don't compete with Tier 3 or Tier 4 CEM's.

The_Omega_Man · 08-29-2008, 07:22 PM

How about we let this play out some more, and put away the fake crystal balls!

Super XP · 08-29-2008, 09:54 PM

Quote:

The company has been a champion of video technologies for years and its own high definition disc standard, HD DVD (high definition DVD), had been beaten as the HD successor to DVDs earlier in the year by Sony's Blu-ray Disc standard.

It looked like maybe the XDE DVD player was a way for Toshiba to take some revenge on Sony.

It's funny how the writer states Blu-Ray as the DVD's successor. Maybe in his world but not this one. DVD is just too powerful right now to even think about such a thing.

Toshiba is reviving DVD because its worth $Billions$ in the movie industry. Whether they are going this for revenge is something we will never really know.

hatt · 08-30-2008, 11:07 AM

I continue to be amazed at the logic used here.

Consumers are on a quest to replace their DVD players with better and more expensive DVD players, and at the same time are making a effort to avoid a BD player.

The majority of people who decide their current DVD playback solution isn't good enough are going to buy a BD player. If anything, bringing out new products that are suppose to "improve" DVD will draw even more attention to BD than it would of had before such a campaign. Once BD players of any make start hitting the <$200, the wind for mid priced DVD players won't be strong enough for the sails to even be raised.

**PFC5** · 08-30-2008, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatt

I continue to be amazed at the logic used here.

Consumers are on a quest to replace their DVD players with better and more expensive DVD players, and at the same time are making a effort to avoid a BD player.

The majority of people who decide their current DVD playback solution isn't good enough are going to buy a BD player. If anything, bringing out new products that are suppose to "improve" DVD will draw even more attention to BD than it would of had before such a campaign. Once BD players of any make start hitting the <$200, the wind for mid priced DVD players won't be strong enough for the sails to even be raised.

I do agree with this and when that happens, those mid priced upscalers will have to lower prices to sell. I think this is WHY many feel the XDE player will drop in price in a month or so.

I am sure some still buy the Denon 5910 SD DVD player for $3500.00, but I don't know WHY.

I see a lot of people posting that they bought their first HDTV and are looking for a new SD DVD player because, they state in their request for help, that BD is still too expensive for them, or the media is too expensive to buy in yet. I think THIS is the market for the mid-priced upscalers right now, which would include the XDE player.

hatt · 08-30-2008, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

I do agree with this and when that happens, those mid priced upscalers will have to lower prices to sell. I think this is WHY many feel the XDE player will drop in price in a month or so.

I am sure some still buy the Denon 5910 SD DVD player for $3500.00, but I don't know WHY.

I see a lot of people posting that they bought their first HDTV and are looking for a new SD DVD player because, they state in their request for help, that BD is still too expensive for them, or the media is too expensive to buy in yet. I think THIS is the market for the mid-priced upscalers right now, which would include the XDE player.

If Sony drops the price of the 350 to $299 I can't see recommending a player that costs half that. If you have $150 but not $300 you should wait until you have $300. Spending $150 on a new better player(ETA: if money is a concern, if you just want to buy a new upscaler, sweet) that doesn't play BD is silly IMO. An exception would be if the player have added formats you wanted such as SA-CD, DVD-A, and so on which many in the $150 and up range have.

Nikopol · 08-30-2008, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatt

I continue to be amazed at the logic used here.

Consumers are on a quest to replace their DVD players with better and more expensive DVD players, and at the same time are making a effort to avoid a BD player.

The majority of people who decide their current DVD playback solution isn't good enough are going to buy a BD player. If anything, bringing out new products that are suppose to "improve" DVD will draw even more attention to BD than it would of had before such a campaign. Once BD players of any make start hitting the <$200, the wind for mid priced DVD players won't be strong enough for the sails to even be raised.

but but but BD software is so expensive

Yeah, i agree with your logic. If you tell people: "Check it out, it's almost real HD", people will ask: "So, how much for some real HD?" If it's just a small premium, then: "Ups...."

Falling prices for "DVD players with BD capability"

will force mid-range upconverters to erode their prices in order to stay competitive. Not a compelling outlook for other companies to focus on "XDE like" players.

So actually: Once prices for software will come down a bit, dvd will look very old to a lot of people, including some of these fabled J6Ps, who always behave in a way which suits your own argument. (like in this post

)

Bravestime · 08-30-2008, 12:39 PM

Thing to remember about BD movie prices is that having a BD player doesn't lock you in to buy ONLY BD movies. You can still buy SD DVD at will. People that just can't afford blu-ray movies all the time may just buy blu-ray for the most appealing movies. When prices on blu-ray start to reduce, then I'm sure these same consumers will increase their blu-ray movie purchases.

When blu-ray player prices get down to the $250 range, I believe consumers will really start getting on the HD train.

You know I was one that felt Blu-ray would remain a strong niche, but I must say I think Blu-ray has a chance to become mass adopted.

Also, All these HD programs sats and cables are distributing will make J6P become conditioned to HD. After while, J6P will be spoiled and think anything less is not acceptable and want the best.

Nikopol · 08-30-2008, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bravestime

Thing to remember about BD movie prices is that having a BD player doesn't lock you in to buy ONLY BD movies. You can still buy SD DVD at will. People that just can't afford blu-ray movies all the time may just buy blu-ray for the most appealing movies. When prices on blu-ray start to reduce, then I'm sure these same consumers will increase their blu-ray movie purchases.

When blu-ray player prices get down to the $250 range, I believe consumers will really start getting on the HD train.

You know I was one that felt Blu-ray would remain a strong niche, but I must say I think Blu-ray has a chance to become mass adopted.

Also, All these HD programs sats and cables are distributing will make J6P become conditioned to HD. After while, J6P will be spoiled and think anything less is not acceptable and want the best.

Good point. Having more and more HD programming will actually train people's eyes about good pq.

**PFC5** · 08-30-2008, 03:46 PM

The problem is that well made SD DVDs on a good upscaler looks about the same as much of the HD movie content on cable/sat.

08-29-2008, 07:22 PM	#7
The_Omega_Man Don't touch the remote! Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Encino,CA Posts: 3,425	How about we let this play out some more, and put away the fake crystal balls! __________________ Lvng Rm Sony KF50WE610 HDTV D* HR-21 HD DVR XA2 HD DVD Onkyo TX-NR905 JVC HR-S3500U S-VHS Hrmony One Energy Encore 5.1 Spkr Mstr Bdrm Tosh 46XF550U HDTV XA2 HD DVD D* HR-21 HD DVR Onkyo TX-SR606 Hrmony 659 Polk 5.1 Spkr Office Samy LNS3252D HDTV D* HR-20 HD DVR A2 HD DVD Sony RDR-HX715 DVD Rec. Fisher FVH-4910 VHS Onkyo TX-SR674 Psyclone PSC47 HDMI Sw. Hrmony 550 Polk RM6750 5.1 Spkr Gst Rm Samy UN46B7100 HDTV D* HR10 HD DVR XBOX360 Elite+HD DVD PS3 60GB Onkyo TX-SR704 Energy C-7 Spkr Hrmony 880

08-30-2008, 12:39 PM	#13
Bravestime Supporter of HiDef Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Aiken, SC Age: 53 Posts: 4,414	Thing to remember about BD movie prices is that having a BD player doesn't lock you in to buy ONLY BD movies. You can still buy SD DVD at will. People that just can't afford blu-ray movies all the time may just buy blu-ray for the most appealing movies. When prices on blu-ray start to reduce, then I'm sure these same consumers will increase their blu-ray movie purchases. When blu-ray player prices get down to the $250 range, I believe consumers will really start getting on the HD train. You know I was one that felt Blu-ray would remain a strong niche, but I must say I think Blu-ray has a chance to become mass adopted. Also, All these HD programs sats and cables are distributing will make J6P become conditioned to HD. After while, J6P will be spoiled and think anything less is not acceptable and want the best. __________________ Life is Short, Watch a Movie Last edited by Bravestime; 08-30-2008 at 12:42 PM.

08-30-2008, 03:46 PM	#15
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 28,057	The problem is that well made SD DVDs on a good upscaler looks about the same as much of the HD movie content on cable/sat. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier

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08-29-2008, 05:20 PM	#2
Lee Stewart Behold - the future! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL Age: 58 Posts: 25,181	Yes - the XDE - like all UP DVD players will hurt BD. The president of WHV has already gone on record as saying that. The world is NOT made up of videophiles - no matter what people here on these forums think.

08-30-2008, 11:07 AM	#9
hatt HD Elitist Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: FL Age: 34 Posts: 4,887	I continue to be amazed at the logic used here. Consumers are on a quest to replace their DVD players with better and more expensive DVD players, and at the same time are making a effort to avoid a BD player. The majority of people who decide their current DVD playback solution isn't good enough are going to buy a BD player. If anything, bringing out new products that are suppose to "improve" DVD will draw even more attention to BD than it would of had before such a campaign. Once BD players of any make start hitting the <$200, the wind for mid priced DVD players won't be strong enough for the sails to even be raised.