Toshiba's XDE DVD players won't hurt Blu-ray Disc

The_Omega_Man · 09-02-2008, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ack_bak

But in the end it is your loss. I will enjoy the best that Blu-Ray has to offer.

Ironically, so will the Hard Core "Dyed in the wool," HD DVD supporters eventually, but at a substancially lower initial cost point!

If it is still around by then!

awol · 09-03-2008, 02:20 AM

Here we go!

Although a bit of warning, It's late, and I'm tired, so if I come across a little disjointed or snarky, my apologies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Omega_Man

You do know that Toshiba continued to produce and market SD DVD and Up-scaling DVD players all during the HDM fiasco, right? If your assumption is correct, Toshiba should have been the first and ONLY (BTW) CE mfg. to drop all SD DVD player production in favor of HDM!

So this would have been marketed at the top of their single disc SD DVD player line, just as it is today!

I work in Advertising. And I took a particular interest in each companies ads during the war. Neither the BDA companies nor Toshiba actively marketed SA UpDVD from my recollection. Oppo and Denon, however, DID. And I never suggested they would drop all SD DVD player production in favor of HDM. Merely SA UpDVD players.

Quote:

WHOA!

Wha...What???

That is a bit myopic in the overall scheme of things, isn't it?! So Ferrari's exist, therefore there is no need for a Honda or Toyota, Nissan, GM,Chevy,Ford,etc. if you just need a car???

No, flip it and reverse it is my point. When the road is the same, and the Ferrari and the other makes you mentioned are similarly priced or the Ferrari is even less, then it only makes sense to pick the Ferrari.

Quote:

Incorrectamundo! Neither actually require a HDTV to see any acknowledgeable benefit, relative to the viewer. Both can be displayed on SDTVs and non-WS TVs. However, if you want the best and most accurate picture that each can display, an HDTV for the display of anamorphic video is preferred. Old 4:3 B/W grainy video, doesn't benefit too much from up-conversion or HD!

No, a typical SDTV can not take advantage of the additional lines of resolution that HD sources provide, but the UP-Converting DVD player can output 480p, as can the BD player, but just not for the same money!

Nice twist. But I don't buy it. Run of the mill SD DVD players have been outputting at 480p for MUCH longer than UpDVD players have been around. This was one of DVD's first big enhancements. Your point is moot IMO.

Quote:

A race track is not required to drive Ferrari on, however, that is when the car can be driven it's best and to it's real limits. Now, to just go to work every day and to the grocery store occasionally, which would you want the monthly payments and insurance for: A Ferrari Enzo or a BMW 335i?

So if I do want to output 720p or better to an HDTV, and I can do it for less money than what BD costs, plus I can play every movie produced on SD DVD and I can get a relatively DAMNED good picture out of it, then there is real value there! Now if and when I am ever ready for BD, all I have to do is replace the cheap SD DVD player(s). But BD had better be ready for me by then! Because I can play SD DVDs anywhere today!

Reign it back in here Omega, this had nothing to do with BD. My point from the get go was that if Red had won, there would not be an XDE player today.

Quote:

Yes they wanted to appeal to different financial groups as well as the different existing HDTV capabilities. I maintain that the XDE product was not brought to market simply to continue the HDM battle, in a loosely reincarnated product. That just makes no good business sense!

Conversely, it would make good business and marketing sense, to produce the best available SD DVD and HDM products on the market, if at all possible!

Okay, take your HT enthusiast hat off and put your business man hat on, here! Why should Toshiba or any other CE Mfg. care if their product actually provides you individually, a real benefit today? If you buy it, then you must have seen the value for yourself, hooray for me! There is now more money in my pocket today than there was yesterday! Toshiba and EVERY OTHER CE out there, would market to 4 year olds, if they had a wallet with a credit card in it and the ability to pay!

FYI. The XDE is a bit more than just another "Run-Of-The-Mill," Up-Converting DVD player!.... Eventually, I trust that this fact will sink in to those that continue to overlook the current Toshiba marketing for this product!

I'm not saying that it's here to continue the battle. This is different. It's here to make Toshiba any money it can to recoup its losses caused by HD DVD. Again, my point was that we would not have this XDE player had Red won. It would have been incorporated into the HD DVD players themselves. Again, it does NOT make good sense to confuse your customers by saying (and they did), "Here buy this new HD DVD player. It will even make all your DVD's look 'near HD'." And then turn around and say, "And here, buy this DVD player. It will make all your DVD's look even nearer HD." Again, I work in advertising. You do not under ANY circumstances want to confuse your customer. And unfortunately, this would actually confuse J6P. Remember, they think they're getting HD just by buying the set.

And I realize it's not your run of the mill Upscaler. And again, my beef isn't XDE vs. Blu. In actuallity it's a hypothetical XDE vs. HD DVD.

Quote:

In theory I agree. However, in practice, I need to see it to believe it!

Me too. But if it does, I'm gettin' one for the Bedroom!

Quote:

Well you do know that ~$100 HD DVD players were only so because of the Format Battle that Toshiba wanted so badly to win. They would not have been at that price if there was no format battle, by the time this product was released. But keep in mind, the fact that Toshiba was still selling some of their other Up-Converting only DVD players, for more than the ~$100 HD DVD price! Did it make sense? Not really, but desperate times called for desperate measures!

BTW. I never saw $100 HD DVD players until the Battle was over for HD DVD. I mean there was that one day last year, but since then, I never saw them being marketed for that price!

Yes, I almost bought one. And you're right, they hovered at $125-35 on Amazon up until about 1-4-08. But regardless of the reason why they were that low, they were that low. Toshiba would not have been able to drastically increase the price for newer models without a LOT of fallout IMO. I don't remember seeing a Toshiba UpDVD during the format war for more than $75. It may have been a sale at CC though.

Chris Gerhard · 09-03-2008, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Of course, in time . . . . all issues will be solved. Only question is . . . how long will it take?

If the studios are hyping up BD Live - then why are CEM's building and selling 1.1 only players?

Lee's post contains broken logic alert! Because the studios are promoting Profile 2.0 features is not a reason to avoid building Profile 1.1 players. Not all consumers are interested in having a player connected to the internet to access BD-Live features, so offering Profile 1.1 players makes sense to allow that market segment to save some money and not pay for something they don't want. It is an option, choice is usually a good idea for a product line. If and when it is so inexpensive to make all players Profile 2.0 that no real cost benefit is attained by providing that particular choice is the time to quit making Profile 1.1 players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Why is MSRP still $40 (on the average)? We are talking about $4.00 (?) worth of plastic and $2.00 in packaging.

Yes, and included on that piece of plastic in a pretty package is a repoduction for sale of something that cost many millions to make, often more than $100 million to make and recouping the cost and making a profit is the goal. Companies price products to maximize profits, that is just the most basic of business principles and it is universal across all products in all for profit businesses. I think the Blu-ray disc MSRP is often too high, but it is rumored that Warner is going to lower prices and I hope it is true and I hope it is a successful strategy and others will follow. Greater profits are often possible with lower prices so we will soon see if that happens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

If BD is the next big thing - then whey are the BD CEM's still selling UP DVD players?

More broken logic. Because Blu-ray is the next big thing is no reason to stop making mature products that still have a market. Obviously upscaling DVD has been around for many years, still selling strong, but that market is not growing, it is not something new and exciting for consumers, it is not the next big thing. Because the Blu-ray companies are still selling upscaling DVD players does not mean the Blu-ray line is not the more important product line now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Why is it taking forever to get some of the AAA catalog titles out on BD?

What does why is taking forever to get some AAA catalog titles on Blu-ray mean? Companies that own the rights to "AAA catalog titles" are making business decisions in their best interests regarding timing of release of those titles. There are lots of reasons these companies stagger releases which has been a proven successful strategy over the years. I wish I could dictate to Warner, Sony, Fox, Disney and the rest of the companies to release the titles I want now, but it is a simple concept that forms the basis of that business decision, market your products in a manner that increases sales, not market your product in a manner that is preferred by Chris Gerhard. Does this mean you are unhappy more releases aren't available quicker? Why would that be of any concern to someone that does’t have a player? Would you own a player now if the releases were more to your liking?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

All issues - IMO.

Your attempts to put Blu-ray in the most negative light, with you reaching for criticism based on nothing is common here and really, really old. If you like DVD, or XDE or even HD DVD, and dislike Blu-ray great, that is your right. You aren't alone, there are going to be many people that aren't going to buy Blu-ray, ever, and whether or not you are among that group is of no interest to anybody. What is of interest to people researching Blu-ray, which is growing and just like every product has some issues being addressed, is information about Blu-ray from people that know something about Blu-ray, positive and negative. You can't be included in the group that knows anything about Blu-ray, you have proven that time and time again from your poorly formed opinions during the format war to your constant never ending drivel attempting to claim something negative about Blu-ray since the lopsided format war ended, and ended none too soon.

The fact is and almost all owners of Blu-ray know this, Blu-ray offers a great home experience for consumers that own the product. The real issues, not the nonsense you spout, are rather small. Your negative opinions are not based on ownership of the product and absolutely of no benefit to anybody with interest in the product and the sooner you understand that, the better off we will be.

Chris

Super XP · 09-03-2008, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard

Lee's post contains broken logic alert! Because the studios are promoting Profile 2.0 features is not a reason to avoid building Profile 1.1 players. Not all consumers are interested in having a player connected to the internet to access BD-Live features, so offering Profile 1.1 players makes sense to allow that market segment to save some money and not pay for something they don't want. It is an option, choice is usually a good idea for a product line. If and when it is so inexpensive to make all players Profile 2.0 that no real cost benefit is attained by providing that particular choice is the time to quit making Profile 1.1 players.

Chris

Talk about your broken logic. How can you recommend Blu-Ray to people when you need a specific profiled player to play a specific profiled disc?

If a movie disc features something that is profile 2.0 based, all players should give the opportunity for the buyer of the disc to either want to experience it or to ignore this feature(s).

Can you imagine J6P’s buying profile 1.1 based players due to cheaper prices and not having the ability to experience everything on a profile 2.0 based BD movies?

J6P purchased that movie with his own money and yet the BDA’s ridiculous profile scheme prevents J6P to fully utilise the disc. Its J6P’s money spent and therefore J6P deserves to fully utilise that disc as he sees fit, not the CE manufactures and not the Studios and not the BDA.

Common sense is common sense regardless of how you look at it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard

More broken logic. Because Blu-ray is the next big thing is no reason to stop making mature products that still have a market. Obviously upscaling DVD has been around for many years, still selling strong, but that market is not growing, it is not something new and exciting for consumers, it is not the next big thing. Because the Blu-ray companies are still selling upscaling DVD players does not mean the Blu-ray line is not the more important product line now.

Chris

Hate to break this too you but the Blu-Ray line is not the more important product line. Not when DVD is selling at 97% and BD selling at 3%. Up-Scaling DVD players are growing in popularity just as HDTV’s are selling and growing in popularity. People want a cheap solution to view their DVD collections on their HDTV and the only product that can offer this is Up-Converting DVD players.

Blu-Ray will have to work hard to win the hearts of HDTV owners and right now they lack movie content, the prices stink and they are selling different profile based players that are incompatible with each other in terms of features. Once the BDA/Studios/CE Manufactures get bitch slapped they might wake up and start producing and reducing prices.

MikeRox · 09-03-2008, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Omega_Man

Ironically, so will the Hard Core "Dyed in the wool," HD DVD supporters eventually, but at a substancially lower initial cost point!

If it is still around by then!

Will balance out with the additional cost of purchasing the HD DVD and the films for that then won't it? Oh you bargain hunters you

Chris Gerhard · 09-03-2008, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super XP

Talk about your broken logic. How can you recommend Blu-Ray to people when you need a specific profiled player to play a specific profiled disc?

What are you talking about? I play discs with Profile 2.0 features using a Profile 1.0 player often. I watch the movie and don't access the BD-Live features. Do you believe I am the only person that does that? Are you trying the old tactic of claiming a Profile 2.0 player is needed to play a disc with Profile 2.0 features?

Try to state something that makes some sense for a change. I got bored trying to read the rest of your meaningless response to my post so I stopped with this comment.

Chris

MikeRox · 09-03-2008, 06:22 AM

The box states "Not all features may work on all Blu-ray players"

It DOESN'T say "ZOMG THIS FILM WILL CRAP OUT ON YOUR CRAPPY PLAYER, YOU MUST UPGRADE!"

dsskid · 09-03-2008, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard

Lee's post contains broken logic alert! Because the studios are promoting Profile 2.0 features is not a reason to avoid building Profile 1.1 players. Not all consumers are interested in having a player connected to the internet to access BD-Live features, so offering Profile 1.1 players makes sense to allow that market segment to save some money and not pay for something they don't want. It is an option, choice is usually a good idea for a product line. If and when it is so inexpensive to make all players Profile 2.0 that no real cost benefit is attained by providing that particular choice is the time to quit making Profile 1.1 players.

Yes, and included on that piece of plastic in a pretty package is a repoduction for sale of something that cost many millions to make, often more than $100 million to make and recouping the cost and making a profit is the goal. Companies price products to maximize profits, that is just the most basic of business principles and it is universal across all products in all for profit businesses. I think the Blu-ray disc MSRP is often too high, but it is rumored that Warner is going to lower prices and I hope it is true and I hope it is a successful strategy and others will follow. Greater profits are often possible with lower prices so we will soon see if that happens.

More broken logic. Because Blu-ray is the next big thing is no reason to stop making mature products that still have a market. Obviously upscaling DVD has been around for many years, still selling strong, but that market is not growing, it is not something new and exciting for consumers, it is not the next big thing. Because the Blu-ray companies are still selling upscaling DVD players does not mean the Blu-ray line is not the more important product line now.

What does why is taking forever to get some AAA catalog titles on Blu-ray mean? Companies that own the rights to "AAA catalog titles" are making business decisions in their best interests regarding timing of release of those titles. There are lots of reasons these companies stagger releases which has been a proven successful strategy over the years. I wish I could dictate to Warner, Sony, Fox, Disney and the rest of the companies to release the titles I want now, but it is a simple concept that forms the basis of that business decision, market your products in a manner that increases sales, not market your product in a manner that is preferred by Chris Gerhard. Does this mean you are unhappy more releases aren't available quicker? Why would that be of any concern to someone that does’t have a player? Would you own a player now if the releases were more to your liking?

Your attempts to put Blu-ray in the most negative light, with you reaching for criticism based on nothing is common here and really, really old. If you like DVD, or XDE or even HD DVD, and dislike Blu-ray great, that is your right. You aren't alone, there are going to be many people that aren't going to buy Blu-ray, ever, and whether or not you are among that group is of no interest to anybody. What is of interest to people researching Blu-ray, which is growing and just like every product has some issues being addressed, is information about Blu-ray from people that know something about Blu-ray, positive and negative. You can't be included in the group that knows anything about Blu-ray, you have proven that time and time again from your poorly formed opinions during the format war to your constant never ending drivel attempting to claim something negative about Blu-ray since the lopsided format war ended, and ended none too soon.

The fact is and almost all owners of Blu-ray know this, Blu-ray offers a great home experience for consumers that own the product. The real issues, not the nonsense you spout, are rather small. Your negative opinions are not based on ownership of the product and absolutely of no benefit to anybody with interest in the product and the sooner you understand that, the better off we will be.

Chris

Thanks Chris. I was going to respond to Lee, but apparently you beat me to it, and your reply was well stated.

dsskid · 09-03-2008, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard

What are you talking about? I play discs with Profile 2.0 features using a Profile 1.0 player often. I watch the movie and don't access the BD-Live features. Do you believe I am the only person that does that? Are you trying the old tactic of claiming a Profile 2.0 player is needed to play a disc with Profile 2.0 features?

Try to state something that makes some sense for a change. I got bored trying to read the rest of your meaningless response to my post so I stopped with this comment.

Chris

I do the same. I have absolutely no interest in BD Live.

According to Super XP's logic, all cars would be Ferraris, just in case grandma got the urge to do 120 mph on the way to church, even though she can't see over the steering wheel, or disregarding the fact that she may have a fixed income.

Loves2Watch · 09-03-2008, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard

What are you talking about? I play discs with Profile 2.0 features using a Profile 1.0 player often. I watch the movie and don't access the BD-Live features. Do you believe I am the only person that does that? Are you trying the old tactic of claiming a Profile 2.0 player is needed to play a disc with Profile 2.0 features?

Try to state something that makes some sense for a change. I got bored trying to read the rest of your meaningless response to my post so I stopped with this comment.

Chris

Chris, it amazes me that in some of your posts, ones like this, how anti-consumer you are. You spout information like you represent the corporate world way of thinking. It's like telling someone, that's the way it is, get used to it. Well it's time for a change, now.

If I like many other consumers am going to spend $300 or more on a piece of equipment then I want all of the features including profile 2.0. If media is produced with profile 2.0 features then why would I want a NEW Blu ray player that is incapable of that. It just doesn't make any sense no matter how twisted YOUR/the corporate world justification is.

I am a consumer and will have none of it. It almost seems like bait and switch tactics. HD-DVD did have the advantage here.

Chris Gerhard · 09-03-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsskid

I do the same. I have absolutely no interest in BD Live.

According to Super XP's logic, all cars would be Ferraris, just in case grandma got the urge to do 120 mph on the way to church, even though she can't see over the steering wheel, or disregarding the fact that she may have a fixed income.

If Batman and Robin are the Dynamic Duo fighting crime spreading throughout Gotham, perhaps Lee Stewart and Super XP are the Dimwitted Duo attempting to fight the spread of Blu-ray throughout the world.

Chris

MikeRox · 09-03-2008, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loves2Watch

I am a consumer and will have none of it. It almost seems like bait and switch tactics. HD-DVD did have the advantage here.

Like all the people who spent $300 on a piece of equipment and "didn't even get 1080p"? If you want all the features, I'd expect to pay top dollar regardless of what it is.

If you pay £6000 for a car, you get 4 wheels, an engine, and a basic body. £8000 will get AC, a better audio system etc. You don't get "ALL" the features though

HD Goofnut · 09-03-2008, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard

If Batman and Robin are the Dynamic Duo fighting crime spreading throughout Gotham, perhaps Lee Stewart and Super XP are the Dimwitted Duo attempting to fight the spread of Blu-ray throughout the world.

Chris

More flamebait=More reporting.

David Forbes · 09-03-2008, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loves2Watch

Chris, it amazes me that in some of your posts, ones like this, how anti-consumer you are. You spout information like you represent the corporate world way of thinking. It's like telling someone, that's the way it is, get used to it. Well it's time for a change, now.

If I like many other consumers am going to spend $300 or more on a piece of equipment then I want all of the features including profile 2.0. If media is produced with profile 2.0 features then why would I want a NEW Blu ray player that is incapable of that. It just doesn't make any sense no matter how twisted YOUR/the corporate world justification is.

I am a consumer and will have none of it. It almost seems like bait and switch tactics. HD-DVD did have the advantage here.

Then buy a Profile 2.0 player. There! Wasn't that easy??

If I want a DVD player that plays DVD-Audio, I'll buy one that can handle that. Same if I want a player that does SACD. Not all have them because not all people want those features. Not all people will want to bother connecting their BD players to the Internet, so why should they pay for the added cost? If you want it, buy one that's 2.0. If you don't, then buy something else.

Strange, that seems very pro-consumer to me.

Sure, part of the reason we ended up with Profiles is because of the format war pushing BD to come to market a little ahead of schedule, but now that we're this far into the product cycle, I think choice is a good thing.

I have the new Sony BD player that can be upgraded to Profile 2.0 with firmware, but I doubt I'll bother with it. I'm not planning on ever connecting the thing to the Internet. So far I haven't heard of any connectivity I find compelling in the least, on the Blu-ray side or the deceased HD DVD side. It simply doesn't have any interest for me. Neither do most "extras" on SD DVDs. The Lord of the Rings EE DVDs are the only discs where I worked through just about all of the extras.

Loves2Watch · 09-03-2008, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeRox

Like all the people who spent $300 on a piece of equipment and "didn't even get 1080p"? If you want all the features, I'd expect to pay top dollar regardless of what it is.

And what does that mean, didn't even get 1080p? It still has the same amount of resolution and the TV upscales it to 1080p so what's the difference as it's still 1080p. I paid $99 and $50 (all 6 1080p, FYI) for all of my HD-DVD players except one so your justification holds no water. Again nothing except more Sony/BDA anti-consumerism.

09-03-2008, 06:22 AM	#112
MikeRox Blu Blu Skies! :D Join Date: May 2007 Location: Huddersfield, United Kingdom Posts: 12,416	The box states "Not all features may work on all Blu-ray players" It DOESN'T say "ZOMG THIS FILM WILL CRAP OUT ON YOUR CRAPPY PLAYER, YOU MUST UPGRADE!" __________________ REGION B 4TW! Latest HD additions - I Love You Man - 17 Again - Born on the 4th of July - Paul Blart: Mall Cop - Monsters, Inc. HD Movies - Um... Lost count >_< bout 250 Latest Gaming Additions - Mirrors Edge - Scene It BOS - Wartech: Senko No Ronde - Lego Indiana Jones/Kung Fu Panda 2 pack - Silent Hill

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