Toshiba's XDE DVD players won't hurt Blu-ray Disc

dsskid · 09-02-2008, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

My only question is had HD DVD won opposed to BD, would you be digging so deep for the negative on how it was doing? I don't think adoption would be ANY further along had Red been the winner.

I also don't doubt for a second that Toshiba is only making the XDE as a result of losing the format war choice. It would make no sense at all to cannibalize on sales of HD DVD hardware with a "near HD" product when their HD DVD hardware was already being touted as upscaling DVD to "near HD".

Plus 1 billion

The_Omega_Man · 09-02-2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

You feel the need to "promote" BD. . . . Is that what you are doing?

Is that the purpose of this forum? To "promote" BD?

Lee=

Lee Stewart · 09-02-2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsskid

Lee,
Why do you ask questions in which there are no real answers?

To make sure we do not lose sight of THOSE questions.

Quote:

The same reason that the makers of Lexus still make Toyotas. Some options are not important to some, such as BD Live, and why should those not interested in those options pay a premium for them?

Oh - so the studios are really pitching BD Live - but the CEM's are trying to cater to the "we don't need it" buyer. Sounds like the Push-Me-Pull-Me animal from Dr. Dolittle.

Quote:

How long did it take for VHS' MSRP to drop from $99 to $10? I'd like to have cheaper prices also, but if you want to know the future, you must fist learn from history.

Bad analogy. VHS - FOR YEARS was a rental only format. That's the way the studios wanted it.

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Why did Tosiba sell UP DVD players when they were *cough* marketing *cough* HD DVD?

Something wrong with your throat? Words sticking in your craw?

Quote:

I believe they are marketing the ones that they feel will sell better than the others. No sense in going through the expense of remastering old titles that there are little or no interest in. Like all other companys, they want the most return on their money.

You didn't answer the question . . .

Where are the AAA catalog titles? Why are they dribbling them out as opposed to flooding them out?

Bravestime · 09-02-2008, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

I mostly feel the same way. I am a BD fan with 2 BD players now but I can still see the issues that the format has. Nothing wrong with pointing that out since those issues DO still exist.

It seems that when (some, not you) people see anything not praising BD they get angry or upset about such posts. Some even get hostile and attack such posts and the posters.

If talking openly about the issues BD still has can help make the "powers that be" resolve those issues then we ALL benefit. I am in the camp that if we shove those issues under the rug, the BDA companies will do the same and things do not get better.

IMO, the true BD fan is the one that wants it to be the best it can be and then it will achieve mass adoption quicker, and more completely. We will not get there by sweeping issues under the rug.

I believe the general public has addressed some of the primary issues already. They may not be saying it, but their actions are speaking loud and clear. I'm talking about the lack of consumers buying movies and players. Sure they are selling, but as noted by manufactures and studios, not as they like to see. I firmly believe the reduction in player prices are mainly due to the slow performance of growth in the movie sales.

I know other items need to be discussed, and I'm all for it. I've even posted some "negative" BD news. It's all news, whether we like it or not.

The_Omega_Man · 09-02-2008, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bravestime

I know other items need to be discussed, and I'm all for it. I've even posted some "negative" BD news. It's all news, whether we like it or not.

It's not really about posting Negative BD news! It's about exposing things for what they are, both good and bad!

That way, we can leave ALL of the flag waving and personal insecurities behind, and focus on how to make the best of this situation, that we all find ourselves in now!

Lee Stewart · 09-02-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Omega_Man

It's not really about posting Negative BD news! It's about exposing things for what they are, both good and bad!

That way, we can leave ALL of the flag waving and personal insecurities behind, and focus on how to make the best of this situation, that we all find ourselves in now!

You really think this is going to stop?

awol · 09-02-2008, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Omega_Man

Why would Toshiba really care in this scenario?? It would be money in their pockets either way! Sure they would have preferred for the masses to adopt HD DVD, but they would need to be pragmatic too. It will be some time before HDM can generate the same or better total revenue that DVD can and does.

Sorry, I disagree. I don't think they would have released this product for a second had HD DVD been in the position that Blu is in today. Again, because I think they would have pushed people into buying into HD DVD hardware rather than an upscaler.

Quote:

Also, and this may be shock to some but, HDM (in any format) is NOT for EVERYONE!

It always amazes me that some can not grasp that concept.

SD DVD and UP Converting players will be around for some time period, regardless of HDM's current success or adoption levels.

Sorry, but your logic here is a bit backwards to me for the same reason you're pointing out mine is. People don't need Up Converting players if they also have no need for Blu Ray. Both require an HDTV to see any acknowledgeable benefit. What purpose does an UpDVD player offer to an SDTV owner?

Quote:

Nothing like a Bit-O-Sarcasm to bring your point home!

Even with the up-scaling capabilities of the HD DVD XA2 with a REON chip, apparently it can not produce some of the image detail that these XDE players seem to be able to do without artifacts and some potential image distortion. This is not just Up-Scaling like some want to believe it to be, it is more like dynamic image enhancement.

I'll have to guess you're being cynical. I meant absolutely no sarcasm at all. For my thoughts on the upscaling comment, see below.

Quote:

Three reasons:

1 ) This is a new product and all of the initial Mfg., Marketing, and distribution costs have to be recovered.

2) This is an entry level price point, that the market will bear for this class of product.

3) HD DVD was designed to cater to a different market space than this product.

Q:How come the major auto makers make more than one model of car? A:To cater to different financial demographics.

And they were ALREADY marketing multiple HD DVD models to those different financial demographics. This product is merely the result of their failure to win the HDM spot. Not to mention the fact that marketing this type of player to people who thought DVD was good enough would....... wait for it......... Carve away at sales of people who would have bought HD DVD and it's resulting MEDIA purchases.

Quote:

Eventually, I'm sure. But HDTVs need to be in everyplace that SD TVs are today. That will not be for some time to come.

Again, they will not market a $150 UpDVD player to an SDTV owner. It has no benefit over a $50 DVD player.

Quote:

I completely disagree! Do you honestly think that Toshiba did no R&D on this before February of this year????? No licensing, manufacturing, marketing or distribution deals, etc, until they were backstabbed (Thx WB & Fox

) and had to wave the white flag???? It can take this long just to get the legal engine going, on something like this!

In fact, I do believe that Toshiba has been working on R&D of upscaling capabilities. They were demonstrating this LONG before surrendering in the HDM war. The fruits of some of that labor is destined to be released in their REGZA line of LCD HDTV's through their use of the Cell chip inside the TV. They've already discussed doing this. And I think it's a Phenomenal idea. Using that power to upscale ALL sources should be a win-win for them in the TV segment!

And I also whole-heartedly believe that they wanted to implement the same or similar technology in their HD DVD players for DVD playback. This way, they're not having to outsource the upscaling chips to Silicon Optix, Anchor Bay, or any other third party. Thus increasing their revenue/profit. You say they're trying to get us interested in buying movies again. I say they're trying to make money. Any way they possibly can. But I DON'T believe they would release a $150 UpDVD player in the face of $100 HD DVD players. I do believe that they would implement this new tech into new models of HD DVD players and charge accordingly. Although it likely would NOT have appeared in their lower tier models.

Again, I am completely speculating here. But I'm enjoying the debate!

Bravestime · 09-02-2008, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Omega_Man

It's not really about posting Negative BD news! It's about exposing things for what they are, both good and bad!

That way, we can leave ALL of the flag waving and personal insecurities behind, and focus on how to make the best of this situation, that we all find ourselves in now!

I know it's not just posting negative news. I was merely stating since I have posted negative news, then I have no issues discussing negative aspects of BD. It's part of any process, there's good and bad in generally everything. The problem is how some respond to these differents aspects.

On the flip side, if good news is available, then I certainly don't see a need to call or imply that the poster of the news be labeled a blu-bot, blu-boi, etc...

**PFC5** · 09-02-2008, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bravestime

I believe the general public has addressed some of the primary issues already. They may not be saying it, but their actions are speaking loud and clear. I'm talking about the lack of consumers buying movies and players. Sure they are selling, but as noted by manufactures and studios, not as they like to see. I firmly believe the reduction in player prices are mainly due to the slow performance of growth in the movie sales.

I know other items need to be discussed, and I'm all for it. I've even posted some "negative" BD news. It's all news, whether we like it or not.

Yeah I post "negative" questions knowing we do not have answers yet because I feel these are questions I want to know the answer to and I am holding the BDA companies accountable as a owner of the format. I feel pretty confident that these companies still check out the forums and what is being said. They are likely not doing it as much since the war ended, but likely still doing it. With the internet and these forums, the consumer has the ability to help (in some way) influence these companies, like never before. There is big money in trying to get forums to back your product or format.

Just helping them sweep the issues under the rug or defending no action to solve the issues just removes some of that influence we do have with the forums IMO.

I also think the Omega Man is correct that news should be just news regardless of which it is. Remember when watching the news on TV wasn't about market share/spin and more about just getting the facts out there and let people decide what it means for themselves?

**PFC5** · 09-02-2008, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bravestime

I know it's not just posting negative news. I was merely stating since I have posted negative news, then I have no issues discussing negative aspects of BD. It's part of any process, there's good and bad in generally everything. The problem is how some respond to these differents aspects.

On the flip side, if good news is available, then I certainly don't see a need to call or imply that the poster of the news be labeled a blu-bot, blu-boi, etc...

Good post!

I agree all around with this.

crazyal · 09-02-2008, 08:04 PM

God forbid that we actually helped someone avoid buying a player that didn't meet their expectations or a movie with a lousy transfer. Wouldn't that be too bad because they might buy a player they didn't know about but would like or waited until one was made that did meet what they want. After all who would want to inform somebody so they didn't get home and say BD is crap and tell others about how bad BD is, incomplete, or how they didn't know that all the cool features they wanted couldn't be done with what they bought.

Super XP · 09-02-2008, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

My only question is had HD DVD won opposed to BD, would you be digging so deep for the negative on how it was doing? I don't think adoption would be ANY further along had Red been the winner.

HD DVD would have been in a much better position to win people on its side but only because of its cheaper priced players and the potential for studios to drop HD DVD movie production prices. Combo discs were also great to transition people into going HD DVD along with the TL51 & TLTwin.

Theoretically speaking

The_Omega_Man · 09-02-2008, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

Sorry, I disagree. I don't think they would have released this product for a second had HD DVD been in the position that Blu is in today. Again, because I think they would have pushed people into buying into HD DVD hardware rather than an upscaler.

You do know that Toshiba continued to produce and market SD DVD and Up-scaling DVD players all during the HDM fiasco, right? If your assumption is correct, Toshiba should have been the first and ONLY (BTW) CE mfg. to drop all SD DVD player production in favor of HDM!

So this would have been marketed at the top of their single disc SD DVD player line, just as it is today!

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

Sorry, but your logic here is a bit backwards to me for the same reason you're pointing out mine is.

I tend to roll that way!

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

People don't need Up Converting players if they also have no need for Blu Ray.

WHOA!

Wha...What???

That is a bit myopic in the overall scheme of things, isn't it?! So Ferrari's exist, therefore there is no need for a Honda or Toyota, Nissan, GM,Chevy,Ford,etc. if you just need a car???

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

Both require an HDTV to see any acknowledgeable benefit. What purpose does an UpDVD player offer to an SDTV owner?

Incorrectamundo! Neither actually require a HDTV to see any acknowledgeable benefit, relative to the viewer. Both can be displayed on SDTVs and non-WS TVs. However, if you want the best and most accurate picture that each can display, an HDTV for the display of anamorphic video is preferred. Old 4:3 B/W grainy video, doesn't benefit too much from up-conversion or HD!

No, a typical SDTV can not take advantage of the additional lines of resolution that HD sources provide, but the UP-Converting DVD player can output 480p, as can the BD player, but just not for the same money!

A race track is not required to drive Ferrari on, however, that is when the car can be driven it's best and to it's real limits. Now, to just go to work every day and to the grocery store occasionally, which would you want the monthly payments and insurance for: A Ferrari Enzo or a BMW 335i?

So if I do want to output 720p or better to an HDTV, and I can do it for less money than what BD costs, plus I can play every movie produced on SD DVD and I can get a relatively DAMNED good picture out of it, then there is real value there! Now if and when I am ever ready for BD, all I have to do is replace the cheap SD DVD player(s). But BD had better be ready for me by then! Because I can play SD DVDs anywhere today!

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

I'll have to guess you're being cynical. I meant absolutely no sarcasm at all. For my thoughts on the upscaling comment, see below.

Actually, I am being serious! It's rare but it does happen!

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

And they were ALREADY marketing multiple HD DVD models to those different financial demographics. This product is merely the result of their failure to win the HDM spot. Not to mention the fact that marketing this type of player to people who thought DVD was good enough would....... wait for it......... Carve away at sales of people who would have bought HD DVD and it's resulting MEDIA purchases.

Yes they wanted to appeal to different financial groups as well as the different existing HDTV capabilities. I maintain that the XDE product was not brought to market simply to continue the HDM battle, in a loosely reincarnated product. That just makes no good business sense!

Conversely, it would make good business and marketing sense, to produce the best available SD DVD and HDM products on the market, if at all possible!

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

Again, they will not market a $150 UpDVD player to an SDTV owner. It has no benefit over a $50 DVD player.

Okay, take your HT enthusiast hat off and put your business man hat on, here! Why should Toshiba or any other CE Mfg. care if their product actually provides you individually, a real benefit today? If you buy it, then you must have seen the value for yourself, hooray for me! There is now more money in my pocket today than there was yesterday! Toshiba and EVERY OTHER CE out there, would market to 4 year olds, if they had a wallet with a credit card in it and the ability to pay!

FYI. The XDE is a bit more than just another "Run-Of-The-Mill," Up-Converting DVD player!.... Eventually, I trust that this fact will sink in to those that continue to overlook the current Toshiba marketing for this product!

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

In fact, I do believe that Toshiba has been working on R&D of upscaling capabilities.

See my last statement please!

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

They were demonstrating this LONG before surrendering in the HDM war. The fruits of some of that labor is destined to be released in their REGZA line of LCD HDTV's through their use of the Cell chip inside the TV. They've already discussed doing this. And I think it's a Phenomenal idea. Using that power to upscale ALL sources should be a win-win for them in the TV segment!

In theory I agree. However, in practice, I need to see it to believe it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

And I also wholeheartedly believe that they wanted to implement the same or similar technology in their HD DVD players for DVD playback. This way, they're not having to outsource the up-scaling chips to Silicon Optix, Anchor Bay, or any other third party. Thus increasing their revenue/profit.

Maybe and possibly eventually!

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

You say they're trying to get us interested in buying movies again. I say they're trying to make money. Any way they possibly can.

No doubt that this is the absolute singular goal for ALL of this hoopla! I have no misconceptions about what this is all for, from their perspective. From my perspective, it did re-spark my interests in collecting my favorite movies again and peeked my curiosity as to what additional content could be delivered with each new HDM release. Now with things being what they are today, that interest and anticipation has somewhat subsided.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

But I DON'T believe they would release a $150 UpDVD player in the face of $100 HD DVD players. I do believe that they would implement this new tech into new models of HD DVD players and charge accordingly. Although it likely would NOT have appeared in their lower tier models.

Well you do know that ~$100 HD DVD players were only so because of the Format Battle that Toshiba wanted so badly to win. They would not have been at that price if there was no format battle, by the time this product was released. But keep in mind, the fact that Toshiba was still selling some of their other Up-Converting only DVD players, for more than the ~$100 HD DVD price! Did it make sense? Not really, but desperate times called for desperate measures!

BTW. I never saw $100 HD DVD players until the Battle was over for HD DVD. I mean there was that one day last year, but since then, I never saw them being marketed for that price!

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

Again, I am completely speculating here. But I'm enjoying the debate!

NP and Ditto!

The_Omega_Man · 09-02-2008, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuznstrawberry

Couldn't the same have been asked of HD DVD? I didn't notice any Lord of the Rings, Star Trek, Star Wars, Indiana Jones or other AAA catalog titles issued on that format. But you did get Big Lebowski and Erin Brockavich.

HD DVD does have quite a few more than that. But that is not the point. This is about HDM in general not HD DVD versus BD.

ack_bak · 09-02-2008, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

You feel the need to "promote" BD. . . . Is that what you are doing?

Is that the purpose of this forum? To "promote" BD?

I feel the purpose of all HDM forums is to discuss HDM whether that be good or bad. I do believe that HDM will need more help than DVD ever did by promoting it to those that are uneducated or have never seen Blu-Ray and HD in action. And before you get up in arms, I promoted DVD much the same way to family, friends, co-workers, and neighbors. I was the first one to have a DVD player and I am the first one to have a Blu-Ray and HD DVD player.

If you look at my posts objectively you will see that not everything is good news. I am against excessive DNR and EE. I am against the high media prices especially by some of the retailers like Best Buy. I want to see hardware prices fall at a steady pace as they have. I want to see studios releasing their critical catalog titles. But I also feel that Blu-Ray offers the best PQ/AQ (and extras) that the studios can offer at this time and I want to see it succeed.

If actually read my posts you would understand this. I really do not get people that were strong believers in HD DVD, that are such naysayers with regards to Blu-Ray. I just do not subscribe to this line of thinking (remember, I bought an HD DVD player first).

But in the end it is your loss. I will enjoy the best that Blu-Ray has to offer.

09-02-2008, 08:04 PM	#101
crazyal Smarter than the ave bear Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,314	God forbid that we actually helped someone avoid buying a player that didn't meet their expectations or a movie with a lousy transfer. Wouldn't that be too bad because they might buy a player they didn't know about but would like or waited until one was made that did meet what they want. After all who would want to inform somebody so they didn't get home and say BD is crap and tell others about how bad BD is, incomplete, or how they didn't know that all the cool features they wanted couldn't be done with what they bought. __________________ Please don't feed the Unicorns

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