Toshiba's XDE DVD players won't hurt Blu-ray Disc

**PFC5** · 09-02-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ack_bak

You know it. Had HD DVD won I would be promoting that vs DVD, downloads, and compressed VOD/PPV as well...

So if wanting HDM to succeed results in me being labeled a "True Blu brother" then I will wear the name with honor

I mostly feel the same way. I am a BD fan with 2 BD players now but I can still see the issues that the format has. Nothing wrong with pointing that out since those issues DO still exist.

It seems that when (some, not you) people see anything not praising BD they get angry or upset about such posts. Some even get hostile and attack such posts and the posters.

If talking openly about the issues BD still has can help make the "powers that be" resolve those issues then we ALL benefit. I am in the camp that if we shove those issues under the rug, the BDA companies will do the same and things do not get better.

IMO, the true BD fan is the one that wants it to be the best it can be and then it will achieve mass adoption quicker, and more completely. We will not get there by sweeping issues under the rug.

The_Omega_Man · 09-02-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

I mostly feel the same way. I am a BD fan with 2 BD players now but I can still see the issues that the format has. Nothing wrong with pointing that out since those issues DO still exist.

It seems that when (some, not you) people see anything not praising BD they get angry or upset about such posts. Some even get hostile and attack such posts and the posters.

If talking openly about the issues BD still has can help make the "powers that be" resolve those issues then we ALL benefit. I am in the camp that if we shove those issues under the rug, the BDA companies will do the same and things do not get better.

IMO, the true BD fan is the one that wants it to be the best it can be and then it will achieve mass adoption quicker, and more completely. We will not get there by sweeping issues under the rug.

BINGO! Give that Man A Cigar!

sigill · 09-02-2008, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

I mostly feel the same way. I am a BD fan with 2 BD players now but I can still see the issues that the format has. Nothing wrong with pointing that out since those issues DO still exist.

It seems that when (some, not you) people see anything not praising BD they get angry or upset about such posts. Some even get hostile and attack such posts and the posters.

If talking openly about the issues BD still has can help make the "powers that be" resolve those issues then we ALL benefit. I am in the camp that if we shove those issues under the rug, the BDA companies will do the same and things do not get better.

IMO, the true BD fan is the one that wants it to be the best it can be and then it will achieve mass adoption quicker, and more completely. We will not get there by sweeping issues under the rug.

Absolutely right. The more BD's issues are raised the more chance they may have of being solved. Ideally there should have been one fixed profile from the start as with HD DVD, but that wasnt to be. The sooner these factors are corrected the quicker the general public will hopefully buy into BD. The last thing needed now is to confuse people with profiles and spec's. Many people have enough trouble understanding the difference between 720P and full HD at the moment.

Lee Stewart · 09-02-2008, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sigill

Absolutely right. The more BD's issues are raised the more chance they may have of being solved. Ideally there should have been one fixed profile from the start as with HD DVD, but that wasnt to be. The sooner these factors are corrected the quicker the general public will hopefully buy into BD. The last thing needed now is to confuse people with profiles and spec's. Many people have enough trouble understanding the difference between 720P and full HD at the moment.

Of course, in time . . . . all issues will be solved. Only question is . . . how long will it take?

If the studios are hyping up BD Live - then why are CEM's building and selling 1.1 only players?

Why is MSRP still $40 (on the average)? We are talking about $4.00 (?) worth of plastic and $2.00 in packaging.

If BD is the next big thing - then whey are the BD CEM's still selling UP DVD players?

Why is it taking forever to get some of the AAA catalog titles out on BD?

All issues - IMO.

sigill · 09-02-2008, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Of course, in time . . . . all issues will be solved. Only question is . . . how long will it take?

If the studios are hyping up BD Live - then why are CEM's building and selling 1.1 only players?

Why is MSRP still $40 (on the average)? We are talking about $4.00 (?) worth of plastic and $2.00 in packaging.

If BD is the next big thing - then whey are the BD CEM's still selling UP DVD players?

Why is it taking forever to get some of the AAA catalog titles out on BD?

All issues - IMO.

I agree. These are all perfectly relevant questions and one's that need to be adressed sooner rather than later if BD wants to achieve mass adoption.

awol · 09-02-2008, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Yep - the "Blu Brigade" out in force trying their hardest to make the AV world Blu.

My only question is had HD DVD won opposed to BD, would you be digging so deep for the negative on how it was doing? I don't think adoption would be ANY further along had Red been the winner.

I also don't doubt for a second that Toshiba is only making the XDE as a result of losing the format war choice. It would make no sense at all to cannibalize on sales of HD DVD hardware with a "near HD" product when their HD DVD hardware was already being touted as upscaling DVD to "near HD".

Lee Stewart · 09-02-2008, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

My only question is had HD DVD won opposed to BD, would you be digging so deep for the negative on how it was doing?

Absolutely!

Quote:

I don't think adoption would be ANY further along had Red been the winner.

You are speculating - though HD DVD did have a few things going for it that IMO would have aided in adoption.

Quote:

I also don't doubt for a second that Toshiba is only making the XDE as a result of losing the format war choice. It would make no sense at all to cannibalize on sales of HD DVD hardware with a "near HD" product when their HD DVD hardware was already being touted as upscaling DVD to "near HD".

Something wrong with that?

**PFC5** · 09-02-2008, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Of course, in time . . . . all issues will be solved. Only question is . . . how long will it take?

If the studios are hyping up BD Live - then why are CEM's building and selling 1.1 only players?

Why is MSRP still $40 (on the average)? We are talking about $4.00 (?) worth of plastic and $2.00 in packaging.

If BD is the next big thing - then whey are the BD CEM's still selling UP DVD players?

Why is it taking forever to get some of the AAA catalog titles out on BD?

All issues - IMO.

Yes I agree that these are all issues with BD adoption. Another is the dearth of titles coming out on BD compared to what SD DVD came out with in the same time period.

People want a wide selection and tastes vay greatly so mostly releasing titles that mostly one demographic is interested in is also an issue as well.

**PFC5** · 09-02-2008, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

My only question is had HD DVD won opposed to BD, would you be digging so deep for the negative on how it was doing? I don't think adoption would be ANY further along had Red been the winner.

I know I would be. The sad thing is now that the format war is over people should stop fighting FOR corporations and instead be fighting for CONSUMERS. I had hoped that people would finally admit to the other sides arguments of limitations on the winning format so we could get them resolved instead of continuing the fighting along party lines. Nothing gets solved by defending these corporations instead of demanding that the issues get resolved. As long as BD fans defend BD at the expense of recognizing the issues the further we are away from getting them resolved and BD becoming the great format it COULD BE.

Quote:

I also don't doubt for a second that Toshiba is only making the XDE as a result of losing the format war choice. It would make no sense at all to cannibalize on sales of HD DVD hardware with a "near HD" product when their HD DVD hardware was already being touted as upscaling DVD to "near HD".

I have no doubt either. Toshiba is trying to save their cash cow which is SD DVD now that they do not have HD DVD to replace it. Any corporation would be doing the same thing. Do I like it? yes and no. I DO want my 350+ SD DVD titles to look the best they can, but I also love HD too.

Maybe if the BD player mfg made better upscaling in the BD players this would kill products that try to do this without BD playback.

From what I have read and seen, most BD players fall far shorter than HD DVD players with upscaling when you exclude the REON based models. This is yet ANOTHER area where I believe BD player mfg are dropping the ball.

awol · 09-02-2008, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Absolutely!

You are speculating - though HD DVD did have a few things going for it that IMO would have aided in adoption.

Duh. It's what we do best here!

Quote:

Something wrong with that?

Wrong with what?

Cannibalizing on your own hardware? – Nothing wrong with it, just wouldn't have been a wise move at that price point. Seeings how HD DVD players were already expected to retail at $100. Trying to sell this Upconverter at $150 would have flopped HARD I think.

Or touting the HD DVD hardware as a great upscaler? – Again, no. I think we all agree (even the lighter diehard blu's) that the HD DVD players had great upscaling capabilities. Lord knows it was suddenly good enough for a LOT of people when Toshiba threw in the towel.

But again, why market a product at $150 — $50 more than your entry level HD DVD player?? Just doesn't make sense to me. Unless again, you want to cater to the people that think DVD is "good enough" and don't want to buy HD media. Which again, to me, doesn't make sense. Here comes that Speculation bit again. Toshiba had to have wanted HD DVD to supplant and replace DVD. Otherwise, why bother? Just to compete with Sony and it's New Fangled Blu-Ray?? Give them a bit of a headache for a little while? Not a chance. Following that train of thought, I come back to the first part. They would not have released this XDE player had Blu lost.

Lee Stewart · 09-02-2008, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

Duh. It's what we do best here!

Wrong with what?

Cannibalizing on your own hardware? – Nothing wrong with it, just wouldn't have been a wise move at that price point. Seeings how HD DVD players were already expected to retail at $100. Trying to sell this Upconverter at $150 would have flopped HARD I think.

Or touting the HD DVD hardware as a great upscaler? – Again, no. I think we all agree (even the lighter diehard blu's) that the HD DVD players had great upscaling capabilities. Lord knows it was suddenly good enough for a LOT of people when Toshiba threw in the towel.

But again, why market a product at $150 — $50 more than your entry level HD DVD player?? Just doesn't make sense to me. Unless again, you want to cater to the people that think DVD is "good enough" and don't want to buy HD media. Which again, to me, doesn't make sense. Here comes that Speculation bit again. Toshiba had to have wanted HD DVD to supplant and replace DVD. Otherwise, why bother? Just to compete with Sony and it's New Fangled Blu-Ray?? Give them a bit of a headache for a little while? Not a chance. Following that train of thought, I come back to the first part. They would not have released this XDE player had Blu lost.

. . . your words:

Quote:

Duh. It's what we do best here!

The_Omega_Man · 09-02-2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

Cannibalizing on your own hardware? – Nothing wrong with it, just wouldn't have been a wise move at that price point. Seeings how HD DVD players were already expected to retail at $100. Trying to sell this Upconverter at $150 would have flopped HARD I think.

Why would Toshiba really care in this scenario?? It would be money in their pockets either way! Sure they would have preferred for the masses to adopt HD DVD, but they would need to be pragmatic too. It will be some time before HDM can generate the same or better total revenue that DVD can and does.

Also, and this may be shock to some but, HDM (in any format) is NOT for EVERYONE!

It always amazes me that some can not grasp that concept.

SD DVD and UP Converting players will be around for some time period, regardless of HDM's current success or adoption levels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

Or touting the HD DVD hardware as a great upscaler? – Again, no. I think we all agree (even the lighter diehard blu's) that the HD DVD players had great upscaling capabilities. Lord knows it was suddenly good enough for a LOT of people when Toshiba threw in the towel.

Nothing like a Bit-O-Sarcasm to bring your point home!

Even with the up-scaling capabilities of the HD DVD XA2 with a REON chip, apparently it can not produce some of the image detail that these XDE players seem to be able to do without artifacts and some potential image distortion. This is not just Up-Scaling like some want to believe it to be, it is more like dynamic image enhancement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

But again, why market a product at $150 — $50 more than your entry level HD DVD player?? Just doesn't make sense to me. Unless again, you want to cater to the people that think DVD is "good enough" and don't want to buy HD media. Which again, to me, doesn't make sense.

Three reasons:

1 ) This is a new product and all of the initial Mfg., Marketing, and distribution costs have to be recovered.

2) This is an entry level price point, that the market will bear for this class of product.

3) HD DVD was designed to cater to a different market space than this product.

Q:How come the major auto makers make more than one model of car? A:To cater to different financial demographics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

Here comes that Speculation bit again. Toshiba had to have wanted HD DVD to supplant and replace DVD. Otherwise, why bother?

Eventually, I'm sure. But HDTVs need to be in everyplace that SD TVs are today. That will not be for some time to come.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

Just to compete with Sony and it's New Fangled Blu-Ray?? Give them a bit of a headache for a little while? Not a chance.

No. This was not about Sony at all! It was about getting you and me and everyone else interested in buying movies again! But this time, there was to be some real value add in it for us consumers. Beyond just a better PQ & AQ, but also for some true immersion through the practical application of consistent and fully working interactive features and capabilities. Also with the functional versatility of the Combo & Twin formats

Quote:

Originally Posted by awol

Following that train of thought, I come back to the first part. They would not have released this XDE player had Blu lost.

I completely disagree! Do you honestly think that Toshiba did no R&D on this before February of this year????? No licensing, manufacturing, marketing or distribution deals, etc, until they were backstabbed (Thx WB & Fox

) and had to wave the white flag???? It can take this long just to get the legal engine going, on something like this!

Was HD DVD perfect? Hell No! But it was still, a better approach to an eventual HDM destiny, than what BD is today, IMO.

dsskid · 09-02-2008, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ack_bak

You know it. Had HD DVD won I would be promoting that vs DVD, downloads, and compressed VOD/PPV as well...

So if wanting HDM to succeed results in me being labeled a "True Blu brother" then I will wear the name with honor

I'm with you. I'm spoiled with HDM and would never want to take a step backward.

Lee Stewart · 09-02-2008, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ack_bak
You know it. Had HD DVD won I would be promoting that vs DVD, downloads, and compressed VOD/PPV as well...

You feel the need to "promote" BD. . . . Is that what you are doing?

Is that the purpose of this forum? To "promote" BD?

dsskid · 09-02-2008, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Of course, in time . . . . all issues will be solved. Only question is . . . how long will it take?

Lee,
Why do you ask questions in which there are no real answers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

If the studios are hyping up BD Live - then why are CEM's building and selling 1.1 only players?

The same reason that the makers of Lexus still make Toyotas. Some options are not important to some, such as BD Live, and why should those not interested in those options pay a premium for them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Why is MSRP still $40 (on the average)? We are talking about $4.00 (?) worth of plastic and $2.00 in packaging.

How long did it take for VHS' MSRP to drop from $99 to $10? I'd like to have cheaper prices also, but if you want to know the future, you must fist learn from history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

If BD is the next big thing - then whey are the BD CEM's still selling UP DVD players?

Why did Tosiba sell UP DVD players when they were *cough* marketing *cough* HD DVD?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Why is it taking forever to get some of the AAA catalog titles out on BD?

I believe they are marketing the ones that they feel will sell better than the others. No sense in going through the expense of remastering old titles that there are little or no interest in. Like all other companys, they want the most return on their money.

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