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Toshiba's first showing of SRT receives mocking from journalists "Fanciful nonsense"

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Old 06-29-2008, 04:46 PM   #601
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Originally Posted by ToshManZada View Post
Here's an example of a delay issue I have heard about.

Say someone has a satellite receiver hooked up to a display that uses "SRT". The receiver is running video to the panel through HDMI and to an audio receiver with digital coaxial. We have to ensure that the video is being perfectly synced with the audio.

If the satellite has the audio and video hooked up to a display, then the audio can be managed.


I'm sorry if my posting here has alienated any members. I'm not trying to sell anyone anything. I was just pointed to this forum by a friend because there was talk about multiple frame processing and I thought I could clarify some things and add to the discussion. Toshiba is not competing directly with Blu-Ray Disc with this product at all. It's really for displays, the DVD player is an afterthought, which still may or may not happen.
That is exactly what I was referring to. This could be rather problematic for people like us here who tend to run everything off our receivers and not the display (exclude SRT DVD players, since of course those will handle the video/audio and will synch everything.)

If I were to bypass buying an SRT DVD player and buy an SRT HDTV - I'm in a rut and would be very curious as how would the issue of sound delay be handled. Since I only feed my TV video and all audio (again minus the Wii) is fed to my receiver.

It should have been obvious there would be a sound delay issue, I wonder why we never talked about it before.
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Old 06-29-2008, 04:56 PM   #602
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The sound delay isn't technically an issue, it's only an issue when it comes down to pricing. Enough processing power could be packed in there to eliminate all any audio delay, but the cost have to be made up. That's where it is at now. How much horsepower should be put in?

Numbers are being crunched all day right now on this situation.
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Old 06-29-2008, 05:34 PM   #603
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Isn't it the other way around? There isn't the processing needed for the audio meaning that the image ends up behind the audio?
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Old 06-29-2008, 05:40 PM   #604
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I wouldn't stop posting Bmore, if this guy does work for Toshiba, it's not like he's posting in threads bashing BD or anything. He's just feeding the bears and doing damage control (if you can call it that ) in the SRT master thread addendum.
Sure. Here goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToshManZada View Post
I'm sorry if my posting here has alienated any members. I'm not trying to sell anyone anything. I was just pointed to this forum by a friend because there was talk about multiple frame processing and I thought I could clarify some things and add to the discussion.
So who is this friend? And what makes you qualify to be able to "clarify some things"? Seems to be an awful lot of convenient coincidences surrounding your joining of this forum. And your use of words like "we" and "our" when discussing this technology makes it seem like you work for Toshiba, since "we" and "our" are possessive type words.

If your are going to post all types of cryptic, innuendo type comments about this technology, maybe you should be more forthcoming about who you are. Or else some people may think you are a schill...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToshManZada View Post
Toshiba is not competing directly with Blu-Ray Disc with this product at all. It's really for displays, the DVD player is an afterthought, which still may or may not happen.
Yeah, an "Oh $h*t, HD DVD is dead" afterthought.

Once again, if you are a paid representative of a certain company, I think it would be best to offer up a full disclosure, out of respect for the members of this forum. Maybe you don't have to do it directly, but at least notify the mods here so that people will know that you are being paid by a certain company, and thus take your words in light of that. I don't think it is right for us to have to sit through this apparent attempt at some type of viral marketing on HD internet forums. I suggest a full disclosure.
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Old 06-29-2008, 05:40 PM   #605
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Mikerox

If the audio never comes through the panel, we have no control over it to process it.
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Old 06-29-2008, 05:44 PM   #606
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Isn't it the other way around? There isn't the processing needed for the audio meaning that the image ends up behind the audio?
Yes, you are 100% right, I just re-read my post. I meant the Video Delay.

Thanks Mike
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Old 06-29-2008, 05:46 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by bmore View Post
Sure. Here goes.

So who is this friend? And what makes you qualify to be able to "clarify some things"? Seems to be an awful lot of convenient coincidences surrounding your joining of this forum. And your use of words like "we" and "our" when discussing this technology makes it seem like you work for Toshiba, since "we" and "our" are possessive type words.

If your are going to post all types of cryptic, innuendo type comments about this technology, maybe you should be more forthcoming about who you are. Or else some people may think you are a schill...



Yeah, an "Oh $h*t, HD DVD is dead" afterthought.

Once again, if you are a paid representative of a certain company, I think it would be best to offer up a full disclosure, out of respect for the members of this forum. Maybe you don't have to do it directly, but at least notify the mods here so that people will know that you are being paid by a certain company, and thus take your words in light of that. I don't think it is right for us to have to sit through this apparent attempt at some type of viral marketing on HD internet forums. I suggest a full disclosure.
So much for . . . "I'm done"

PS: He can do WHATEVER he wants . . . . "because he can"

And there is NO rule here that says someone has to identify themselves as an "insider." That is STRICTLY up to them.
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Old 06-29-2008, 05:50 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by ToshManZada View Post
railven

The sound delay isn't technically an issue, it's only an issue when it comes down to pricing. Enough processing power could be packed in there to eliminate all any audio delay, but the cost have to be made up. That's where it is at now. How much horsepower should be put in?

Numbers are being crunched all day right now on this situation.
So ball park figure, what would the delay of video be to sound? And, yes, it is important to me as I'd primarily play games on the TV, and not all games do calibration. Rock Band with a 7 ms delay is almost impossible, I had to fine tune that bastard to my new TV and then realized my new TV was the cause of my delay.

I know this might not be answerable, but just curious if you know anything. I remember when LCD displays for PCs were first hitting the scene.

17" LCD 1280x1024 with 12ms response time - $200-300
17" LCD 1280x1024 with 10ms response time - $400-500
17" LCD 1280x1024 with 8ms response time - +$600

I'm sure prices have scaled, but to the average consumer trying to save money here and there, this could make or break their appeal to the product.
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Old 06-29-2008, 05:52 PM   #609
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ToshManZada:

In case you haven't figured it out yet........there is a small group of people here whose passion for BD......knows no bounds:

Bmore
Hatt
Ssjlancer

Just ignore them.

They are not interested in discussions - strictly confrontations.
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Old 06-29-2008, 05:54 PM   #610
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So much for . . . "I'm done"

PS: He can do WHATEVER he wants . . . . "because he can"

And there is NO rule here that says someone has to identify themselves as an "insider." That is STRICTLY up to them.
Then this forum clearly is not up to the standards of other forums (AVS, etc.).

Without a disclosure to the "normal" members that a person is an "insider", they are then free to spout any type of propaganda to advance the cause(s) of their representative employer (without any repercussions). Out of respect for the forum members here I think a disclosure should be made if these type of claims are going to be made, so that we all know what angle this person is coming from. Once again, I do not come here to be pitched by company representatives.
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Old 06-29-2008, 06:05 PM   #611
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If the audio/video delay is perceptible, it's unacceptable. It doesn't matter if it's 20mS or 200mS...

You would need to require the consumer to run the audio through the display before passing it along to the receiver, but then you have the problem of having multiple video sources which may have various different audio connections.

How about all audio inputs get digitized (if necessary) and delayed, then passed on via one common output (HDMI, optical, whatever). That shouldn't add any more inputs or outputs than the display would normally have and wouldn't prevent anyone from doing something, just make it a little more complicated in some setups.
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Old 06-29-2008, 06:17 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by railven View Post
So ball park figure, what would the delay of video be to sound? And, yes, it is important to me as I'd primarily play games on the TV, and not all games do calibration. Rock Band with a 7 ms delay is almost impossible, I had to fine tune that bastard to my new TV and then realized my new TV was the cause of my delay.

I know this might not be answerable, but just curious if you know anything. I remember when LCD displays for PCs were first hitting the scene.

17" LCD 1280x1024 with 12ms response time - $200-300
17" LCD 1280x1024 with 10ms response time - $400-500
17" LCD 1280x1024 with 8ms response time - +$600

I'm sure prices have scaled, but to the average consumer trying to save money here and there, this could make or break their appeal to the product.

I'm not an engineer on the project, but I would imagine that the enhancement would be defeatable for video game play. If that option is not on the menu then the responsible engineers should be horsewhipped.

EDIT:
Not only should it be defeatable but they should add a demo mode with 1/2 screen native and 1/2 enhanced so you can see exactly what it is doing to the image.

Last edited by dangerdoc; 06-29-2008 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 06-29-2008, 06:37 PM   #613
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I can't comment on the exact delay with the finished product, because the product isn't finished. The hope is to make it disappear altogether without over pricing the units.

BobY,

That was an idea that was thrown around. Including a board with audio inputs and outputs on the panel that would only serve to delay the audio to sync it with the video. Though, the engineers are instructed to make the product easy to use for a common person, so it is mostly trashed. It is a shame I say, because it was the easiest solution and relatively cost effective compared to adding a more powerful processing chip.

As for my 'insider' status, I just laugh. I'm sorry. I do not see myself as someone who is important enough to be called an 'insider'. As for who signs my paychecks, well that's no one's business except their's and mine. I'm not here to sell anyone anything. I refuse to discuss pricing (until a formal announcement has been made), or tell anyone that multiple frame processing is better than what they like. To be completely honest, I own 2 Blu-Ray disk players and I enjoy them very much. Also, much of what I've pointed out here are some hurdles that "SRT" is facing. More so, I'm not being paid to post here. I've been a member of the Audio Visual Science forum for many years and enjoy discussing any type of technology that beeps or lights up

About "SRT", I put it in quotes because the actual tech that is being developed by Toshiba has not been given a formal name for the market yet. Also, "SRT" is a term that is generally used with any multiple frame processing technology, which is not exactly the same thing Toshiba is doing. So feel free to insert "SRT" anytime I write "multiple frame processing". I haven't the slightest as to what the marketing department will be officially calling the tech when it is formally introduced. I have heard that there are problems with building a presentation model for the trade shows because of content ownership issues. That is another hurdle right now. There are people involved who aren't interested in paying for the rights to use content owned by a third party. This is really a pain for me, because the same problem reared it's head (in a different way) when HD DVD was being marketed.
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Old 06-29-2008, 07:14 PM   #614
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Quote:
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Then this forum clearly is not up to the standards of other forums (AVS, etc.).

Without a disclosure to the "normal" members that a person is an "insider", they are then free to spout any type of propaganda to advance the cause(s) of their representative employer (without any repercussions). Out of respect for the forum members here I think a disclosure should be made if these type of claims are going to be made, so that we all know what angle this person is coming from. Once again, I do not come here to be pitched by company representatives.
I think everyone here knows that I'm not a fan of Toshiba, but I don't see this guy advertising anything. Roberto was posting links to all kinds of shit with pictures, pricing and everything. This Toshmanzeda guy is actually bringing up more pitfalls of the product if anything.

Let'em go ahead and dig Toshiba's hole deeper

Seriously, Toshman, are there any plans for an external set top SRT converter box? I'd like one to use for all of my gear without having to replace my TV. I'm not a big fan of LCDs to say the least.
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Old 06-29-2008, 07:39 PM   #615
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Well, if you're going to make duplicates of copyrighted material for use as a demo, then you have to pay for it, but you shouldn't have to pay anything in order to use an off-the-shelf DVD for the demo--it's fair use as long as you bought the DVD.

I don't know that the split screen sort of demo that was done for both HD DVD and Blu-Ray is such a great idea. It was all over the forums pretty quickly that the demos were faked and pretty obvious that the SD screen was not nearly as good as an SD DVD.

If I was going to demo an SRT DVD player, I'd do a side-by-side with an SD DVD player (maybe a BD player upscaling SD ), both being shown on the same brand and model display (heck, include SONY displays to shut the critics up altogether ).

Why would management reject a cost-effective simple solution to the audio delay? Sounds like engineering escalation to me. Somebody needs to wield the Samurai "feature cutting" blade...
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