LCD Owners, You've Just Killed HD.

cbcdesign · 03-11-2008, 07:50 AM

LCD displays suffer from an inherent problem which very few people address and that is a prolonged response time. Most LCD displays average 3-5 milliseconds or worse and that simply isn't good enough fast moving images. Plasma beats LCD hands down in this regard as well as having far better contrast ratio. The same applies to projectors. They will NEVER have contrast ratios that match a plasma or a CRT.

It is sad that Pioneer are discontinuing the Plasma display but it opens the market up a bit more for the remaining manufacturers such as LG, Samsung & Hitachi.

Mase · 03-11-2008, 08:03 AM

Dont get me wrong I love my Plasma and am glad I searched before buying an HDTV but LCDs have their advantage also as people have already mentioned.. I am soo paranoid over burn in, as this is my first expensive TV I have purchased. I mean I know I would have to purposely try to damage it but I am always using Samsungs screen wash after every movie, gaming session or whenever I pause anything..

I chose the Samsung plasma over the Panasonic based solely on that feature.. I have crapped my pants(not literally but ya know) from Image Retention after watching a 2.35/2.40 AR movie many a times and anyone with a plasma has had IR at one point or another and its just a headache.. Great PQ though so the trade off for me is I can live with the headache for great PQ, but if an LCD were to be able to come close to the PQ of plasma (at an affordable price, F*** Sony) with no headaches than I would go that route..

FP's are for people who have the room for a dedicated theater, and how many people actually have the ideal room for one of those?

HD Goofnut · 03-11-2008, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbcdesign

LCD displays suffer from an inherent problem which very few people address and that is a prolonged response time. Most LCD displays average 3-5 milliseconds or worse and that simply isn't good enough fast moving images. Plasma beats LCD hands down in this regard as well as having far better contrast ratio. The same applies to projectors. They will NEVER have contrast ratios that match a plasma or a CRT.

It is sad that Pioneer are discontinuing the Plasma display but it opens the market up a bit more for the remaining manufacturers such as LG, Samsung & Hitachi.

You can bet that LG and Samsung will definitely capatilize on this and probably lower their Plasma prices by the holiday season.

cbcdesign · 03-11-2008, 08:10 AM

Limlase1153, Burn in is not really a problem any more unless you have a static image on the screen for a rediculous length of time. Modern plasma TV's have a number of different ways of preventing burn in anyway which include:-
1. Screensaver mode: The image brightness is gradualy reduced if the image is static for more than a couple of minutes.
2. The image is moved around on screen by 1-2 pixels to prevent burn in. This isn't noticable to the eye.
3. A white screen mode which light up the whole display in bright white to remove any traces of image retention.

Don't forget, CRT screens are not imune to burn in either. Modern plasma displays have come on a long long way over the last few years.

Lee Stewart · 03-11-2008, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbcdesign

LCD displays suffer from an inherent problem which very few people address and that is a prolonged response time. Most LCD displays average 3-5 milliseconds or worse and that simply isn't good enough fast moving images. Plasma beats LCD hands down in this regard as well as having far better contrast ratio. The same applies to projectors. They will NEVER have contrast ratios that match a plasma or a CRT.

It is sad that Pioneer are discontinuing the Plasma display but it opens the market up a bit more for the remaining manufacturers such as LG, Samsung & Hitachi.

Pioneer is NOT discontinuing their PDP's. They are stopping the making of their own panels. They will buy them from Panasonic.

They only sold 450,000 PDP's in 2007.

Mase · 03-11-2008, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbcdesign

Limlase1153, Burn in is not really a problem any more unless you have a static image on the screen for a rediculous length of time. Modern plasma TV's have a number of different ways of preventing burn in anyway which include:-
1. Screensaver mode: The image brightness is gradualy reduced if the image is static for more than a couple of minutes.
2. The image is moved around on screen by 1-2 pixels to prevent burn in. This isn't noticable to the eye.
3. A white screen mode which light up the whole display in bright white to remove any traces of image retention.

Don't forget, CRT screens are not imune to burn in either. Modern plasma displays have come on a long long way over the last few years.

Like watching a couple 2 hour movies back to back with an AR of 2.40?

People have reported burn in on images that were left on the screen for only a couple hours.. Yes you have to know what you are buying, and what that means. Having a plasma I feel less inclined to just leaving the TV on ESPN while I do stuff around the house. Before I had no problem with it, now all I think about is I dont want to mess my plasma up.. Maybe its just me but the thought is always there with tickers, logos, movies. I still watch what I want but I am always screen washing it in between just to make sure, with my Phillips LCD in the living room I dont have to worry about a thing and its PQ is not as bad as some people here like to beleive..

I know Plasmas are not the only one with burn in problems as I have seen them on CRTs and LCDs. Yes LCDs, when I worked at best buy we had a little LCD in our department (appliances) for kids to play Madden on while their parents shopped for washers and dryers. That screen was permanently burnt in with the title screen of madden and was quite noticeable..

mobiushky · 03-11-2008, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Pioneer is NOT discontinuing their PDP's. They are stopping the making of their own panels. They will buy them from Panasonic.

They only sold 450,000 PDP's in 2007.

Thanks for noting this Lee. I was about to.

It is sad to see Pioneer do this, but business is business. They aren't going to continue losing money just so we can have the best picture.

macphisto · 03-11-2008, 08:37 AM

Plasmas produce a great image but they have too much of a reputation for failing fairly quickly. Most consumers want a TV that can last them for several years and the reputation for plasma TVs means that many consumers will stay away from them.

My father's TV station has gone through dozens upon dozens of plasma screens over the years and has never had one last longer than 18 months. They've used a variety of brands in studio and continuously have the same issues with overheating, burn-in, and failure.

My dad cares quite a bit about picture quality and always does like the quality of image on a plasma set, but it's too risky for him to want to spend big bucks on a set. He instead chose a SXRD rear projector and a Bravia LCD for his bedroom. He prefers Sony and used to work for them. He's consistently warned people over the years to stay away from plasma, especially with some of the extended warranty plans attempting to get out of their obligation to fix or repair the TV.

Lee Stewart · 03-11-2008, 08:38 AM

Pioneer: Plasma TVs Still On The Menu

Quote:

Long Beach, Calif. — Despite Pioneer’s announcement today that it will discontinue production of plasma panel module components, Russ Johnston, Pioneer Electronics’ U.S. marketing and product development senior VP, said the company has not changed its commitment to plasma technology.

“Pioneer is not changing its direction with regard to display strategy,” Johnston told TWICE on Friday. “We believe that PDP is the critical component for display in the home theater environment that we are focused on. We are not de-emphasizing the importance of PDP. We are trying to bring our Kuro strategy to the marketplace and be profitable at it.”

Johnston said Pioneer feels it will be able to continue to produce plasma sets with Kuro’s high black level and contrast performance using outsourced panels, because much of the industry has now migrated in the direction of Pioneer’s encased cell structure technology.

There is a combination of three critical parts that make up Kuro technology including panel driving and video processing circuitry and filter technology, that go beyond the attributes of the panel itself, Johnston said.

“We are sourcing one of the three components as a starting point for our technology now,” Johnston said, adding that Pioneer believes that it can work with its OEM sourcing partners to produce a panel appropriate for the Kuro line.

“This is something that Pioneer has been studying for about two years and it finally aligns with the Project Kuro strategy,” Johnston explained. “Last year we unveiled a marketing program and a repositioning of the brand with a new logo. In parallel with that this study has been going on.”

Johnston said the decision to get out of panel manufacturing resulted from “changes in price points in the marketplace, changes in production of our competitors bringing on oversupply which affected price points, increases in fixed costs in panel production were all factors putting pressure on Pioneer’s profitability.

“After our two-year study we decided to start going into the marketplace and researching partners for us to source panels from,” he said. “We are now discussing with potential partners how to bring a module into our assembly process and bring Kuro products to market.”

Pioneer, he said, never made adjustments in its production strategy to fit the new upscale Kuro business strategy. The end of panel production reflects that adjustment.

Johnston said Pioneer plans to work with Sharp on introducing LCD TVs to the line, but nothing has been decided for the U.S. market at this time. The first Pioneer LCD TVs will launch in Europe, and Johnston said he sees LCD coming in using “Kuro DNA” (meaning high black level and contrast performance) in screen sizes 42 inches and smaller. He added these will likely be targeted at secondary-room applications.

The entire PDP category represents the best in cost technology for 50- and 60-inch size ranges, and is likely to continue to be so in the future, he added, saying PDP has replaced rear-projection in those size sweet spots.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6539630.html

GLOW · 03-11-2008, 08:43 AM

LCD's get a bad rep because there are alot of shoddy CE companies jumping on the bandwagon b/c the technology is so cheap. Go check out one of the Sony XBR5 LCD's and you'll get a taste of what LCD tech is capable of.

I own the best direct view CRT, the best LCD, and I'll be buying a Kuro plasma in a few months. I'm sad to see plasma go but don't put down LCD because you've seen some crappy Westinghouses. Plasma is great technology and I'm sad to see it go but newer and better technologies will come along and we'll eventually forget about it.

BTW, why is this in the Blu-ray/HD DVD section?

cougardew · 03-11-2008, 08:48 AM

Plasmas have no motion blur, wider viewing angles, better color reproduction, better blacks and contrast ratios. They also cost less when comparing equal sets. The burn-in issue has been greatly reduced in most sets and mines been going for two straight years with no problems. The PDP makers should have made some smaller sizes available as J6P is buying 32'-37' sets. I hope Panasonic carries the tourch for plasma for a couple of more years.

Deja Vu · 03-11-2008, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iDarren

Yes CRT beats both, but Plasma beats LCD.

This reminds me of the phasing out of CRT's. Now it seems it's Plasmas turn to bite the dust.

The 2 best formats are phased out, and the weakest performer stays in the game!

And in this situation, the consumer HAS chosen

I have a Sony G90 CRT front projector with new tubes and a green filter. It is gamma corrected for full fade to black and looks very nice. With that being said I just purchased a Sammy 5281F (LED) LCD which has a better overall image, albeit smaller, due in part to its incredible black level - I can't tell if the TV is on or off until a source is selected! I looked at the Kuros, but found the black level wanting in comparison. If LED technology is the future of LCD then I'm one happy camper!

Cheers,

Grant

Super XP · 03-11-2008, 08:54 AM

Pioneer is smart to exit the Plasma making industry. It's much easier to just buy them off Panasonic.

Pioneer never had good sales in the first place, Panasonic was KING of Plasma sales. They also looked better IMO and costs cheaper too.

Dare · 03-11-2008, 09:00 AM

I own a 1080i CRT, and I can't replace it with an LCD fast enough. The phosphors are just too big to resolve 1080, and I'm plagued by geometry issues that are impossible to adjust out. At least with an LCD I wouldn't have those problems.

I can confirm though that LCDs do also suffer from burn-in. I've seen it myself. But I think the burn-in issue is really overstated, and I have a good tip to avoid it. Turn the contrast down. Turn everything down. These screens come from the factory cranked up to the max, to make sure that they are bright enough on the showroom floor to lead in approaching aircraft.

cougardew · 03-11-2008, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dare

I own a 1080i CRT, and I can't replace it with an LCD fast enough. The phosphors are just too big to resolve 1080, and I'm plagued by geometry issues that are impossible to adjust out. At least with an LCD I wouldn't have those problems.

I can confirm though that LCDs do also suffer from burn-in. I've seen it myself. But I think the burn-in issue is really overstated, and I have a good tip to avoid it. Turn the contrast down. Turn everything down. These screens come from the factory cranked up to the max, to make sure that they are bright enough on the showroom floor to lead in approaching aircraft.

That and when I need to pause it for more than 5 minutes I power down the set. I had some severe burn-in on my Panny Plasma from Guitar Hero but it went away in a day or two. Most burn-in goes away in a matter of minutes.

03-11-2008, 07:50 AM	#31
cbcdesign High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Somerset, UK Posts: 1,394	LCD displays suffer from an inherent problem which very few people address and that is a prolonged response time. Most LCD displays average 3-5 milliseconds or worse and that simply isn't good enough fast moving images. Plasma beats LCD hands down in this regard as well as having far better contrast ratio. The same applies to projectors. They will NEVER have contrast ratios that match a plasma or a CRT. It is sad that Pioneer are discontinuing the Plasma display but it opens the market up a bit more for the remaining manufacturers such as LG, Samsung & Hitachi. __________________ 65 HD DVD's Latest Buy: The Big Lebowski 78 Blu-rays Latest Buy:Leon, The Tudors Season 2 & Alien Anthology

03-11-2008, 08:03 AM	#32
Mase HD Ninja Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Some place hot Posts: 7,790	Dont get me wrong I love my Plasma and am glad I searched before buying an HDTV but LCDs have their advantage also as people have already mentioned.. I am soo paranoid over burn in, as this is my first expensive TV I have purchased. I mean I know I would have to purposely try to damage it but I am always using Samsungs screen wash after every movie, gaming session or whenever I pause anything.. I chose the Samsung plasma over the Panasonic based solely on that feature.. I have crapped my pants(not literally but ya know) from Image Retention after watching a 2.35/2.40 AR movie many a times and anyone with a plasma has had IR at one point or another and its just a headache.. Great PQ though so the trade off for me is I can live with the headache for great PQ, but if an LCD were to be able to come close to the PQ of plasma (at an affordable price, F* Sony) with no headaches than I would go that route.. FP's are for people who have the room for a dedicated theater, and how many people actually have the ideal room for one of those? __________________ PlayStation 3 : legndKiller Xbox 360: Legnd K1ller Steam ID*: Legnd_Killer Currently playing* BlackOps 2 (360) Tomb Raider (PC) Gears of War: Judgement (360)

03-11-2008, 08:10 AM	#34
cbcdesign High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Somerset, UK Posts: 1,394	Limlase1153, Burn in is not really a problem any more unless you have a static image on the screen for a rediculous length of time. Modern plasma TV's have a number of different ways of preventing burn in anyway which include:- 1. Screensaver mode: The image brightness is gradualy reduced if the image is static for more than a couple of minutes. 2. The image is moved around on screen by 1-2 pixels to prevent burn in. This isn't noticable to the eye. 3. A white screen mode which light up the whole display in bright white to remove any traces of image retention. Don't forget, CRT screens are not imune to burn in either. Modern plasma displays have come on a long long way over the last few years. __________________ 65 HD DVD's Latest Buy: The Big Lebowski 78 Blu-rays Latest Buy:Leon, The Tudors Season 2 & Alien Anthology

03-11-2008, 08:48 AM	#41
cougardew High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 583	Plasmas have no motion blur, wider viewing angles, better color reproduction, better blacks and contrast ratios. They also cost less when comparing equal sets. The burn-in issue has been greatly reduced in most sets and mines been going for two straight years with no problems. The PDP makers should have made some smaller sizes available as J6P is buying 32'-37' sets. I hope Panasonic carries the tourch for plasma for a couple of more years. __________________ HD DVD: 66 BD: 51 Latest: The Water Horse

03-11-2008, 08:54 AM	#43
Super XP Tom Baker (1974-1981) Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Toronto, ON. Canada Posts: 5,983	Pioneer is smart to exit the Plasma making industry. It's much easier to just buy them off Panasonic. Pioneer never had good sales in the first place, Panasonic was KING of Plasma sales. They also looked better IMO and costs cheaper too. __________________ Toshiba REGZA 46" 1080p LCD HDTV (46RF350U) - (Living Room) Toshiba REGZA 47" 1080p 240Hz LCD HDTV (47ZV650U) - (Theatre Room) Toshiba HD-A35 / HD-A3 Patriot PBO CORE 1080p HD Media Player Panasonic DMP-BDT210(3D) w/ Wifi LG BD570C Blu-Ray Player w/ Wifi Bell HD Satellite Receiver (6131) x 2 Onkyo TX-SR605 7.1 TrueHD/DTS HD MA Precision Acoustics™ 8Ch. Hi Def Speakers DVD's = 129+ = 124+ = 59+

03-11-2008, 08:37 AM	#38
macphisto High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 215	Plasmas produce a great image but they have too much of a reputation for failing fairly quickly. Most consumers want a TV that can last them for several years and the reputation for plasma TVs means that many consumers will stay away from them. My father's TV station has gone through dozens upon dozens of plasma screens over the years and has never had one last longer than 18 months. They've used a variety of brands in studio and continuously have the same issues with overheating, burn-in, and failure. My dad cares quite a bit about picture quality and always does like the quality of image on a plasma set, but it's too risky for him to want to spend big bucks on a set. He instead chose a SXRD rear projector and a Bravia LCD for his bedroom. He prefers Sony and used to work for them. He's consistently warned people over the years to stay away from plasma, especially with some of the extended warranty plans attempting to get out of their obligation to fix or repair the TV.

03-11-2008, 08:43 AM	#40
GLOW High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Post-Empire America Posts: 10,051	LCD's get a bad rep because there are alot of shoddy CE companies jumping on the bandwagon b/c the technology is so cheap. Go check out one of the Sony XBR5 LCD's and you'll get a taste of what LCD tech is capable of. I own the best direct view CRT, the best LCD, and I'll be buying a Kuro plasma in a few months. I'm sad to see plasma go but don't put down LCD because you've seen some crappy Westinghouses. Plasma is great technology and I'm sad to see it go but newer and better technologies will come along and we'll eventually forget about it. BTW, why is this in the Blu-ray/HD DVD section?

03-11-2008, 09:00 AM	#44
Dare I moon you. Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Phoenix, Arizona Posts: 4,523	I own a 1080i CRT, and I can't replace it with an LCD fast enough. The phosphors are just too big to resolve 1080, and I'm plagued by geometry issues that are impossible to adjust out. At least with an LCD I wouldn't have those problems. I can confirm though that LCDs do also suffer from burn-in. I've seen it myself. But I think the burn-in issue is really overstated, and I have a good tip to avoid it. Turn the contrast down. Turn everything down. These screens come from the factory cranked up to the max, to make sure that they are bright enough on the showroom floor to lead in approaching aircraft. __________________ LG GGC-H20L Super Multi Blue Blu-ray & HD DVD ROM Drive 58 Lost count

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