Super Resolution Coming To DVD Players (960P)

Bigloww · 03-03-2008, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mobiushky

Sure let's go backwards! Whoohoo! Gotta love staying in the past!

Don't get me wrong, this looks promising, but why stick with something that is OK, when the possibility exists for much better. HDM has a chance now, and the only reason to celebrate this kind of technology is if you are so unbelievably biased against one company that you are willing to sacrifice the best for something that simply isn't that one company. That is pathetic.

You guys can have your upconverting. Enjoy the "almost" HD quality. I'll push forward and go with actual HD.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Well, for the bagillion DVD owners that have an HDTV and don't want to fork out $500 on a BD player.....Not a bad option. Not to mention buying and re-buying BD's at $20-$25 a pop...

Dr. Jones · 03-03-2008, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stew4HD

Well.. I will not be double dipping for many of my SDs, if i can see them in better resolution, then it is a good thing. I think J6P will be thinking along the same lines.

Yup, and this technology has been available for a while in the digital photography world.

kamspy · 03-03-2008, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigloww

Well, for the bagillion DVD owners that have an HDTV and don't want to fork out $500 on a BD player.....Not a bad option. Not to mention buying and re-buying BD's at $20-$25 a pop...

Who's to say these won't cost $500 a pop. The cell ain't cheap.

Dare · 03-03-2008, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pendragon

No, this is not true. All that is required is non-integral pixel offsets between the frames. With all the variables in the film production process, that is all but guaranteed. It's rather trivial to calculate the shift in pixel registration frame-to-frame to sub-pixel accuracy. That's enough to perform the remainder of super resolution processing. None of this requires any of the information you claim.

Yes, yes it is true. If we're going to link video upscaling to the Super Resolution technique used in astronomy, we have to be accurate about what it is. The video upconversion offshoot uses theoretical principles used in Super Resolution, but it's a wet and sloppy version because a lot of the necessary data is unknown or assumed. The theory is wonderful, but the practice does not live up to the theory. Here's a nice document that illustrates what can be done. (I think this was linked to in the other thread.) It doesn't quite live up to the real thing, and I think it's unrealistic to expect it to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pendragon

NR and EE are techniques to give the eye/brain the illusion of increased picture sharpness. Neither increases resolution. While there will always be practical limits to increasing resolution by super resolution techniques, doubling is not a theoretical restriction. There is always the possibility that super resolution processing of SD sources could in some cases exceed that of HD sources.

We do not disagree here. Except for the last sentence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pendragon

No quarrel with this statement. Unfortunately what Toshiba is calling super upconversion is more properly termed super resolution, which has different goals that the run-of-the-mill upconversion technologies currently available in DVDs and scalers.

Better results could be had from pre-processing the image and releasing on HD media, then could be done in real time. But then that would defeat the purpose. Might as well just release real HD. "Rezzing up" is a wonderful thing to think about, but it just isn't going to perform miracles. It'll make regular DVDs look as good as they can possibly look, but that'll only get you so far.

Bigloww · 03-03-2008, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kamspy

Who's to say these won't cost $500 a pop. The cell ain't cheap.

Who's to say it will happen at all. But if it does I doubt an entry level player will be $500ish like a BD player. But we shall see when/if it happens.. No charge for software development at least...

I know.. They can make them standard in the PS4 when it comes out..

Lee Stewart · 03-03-2008, 06:17 PM

Here is what the Toshiba CEO said about SR from the other thread:

Quote:

Mr. Nishida: What people don't realize is that Hollywood studios are going to release new titles not just for Blu-ray but for standard DVDs as well, and there are a far greater number of current-generation DVD players out there. If you watch standard DVDs on our players, the images are of very high quality because they include an "upconverting" feature. And we're going to improve this even more, so that consumers won't be able to tell the difference from HD DVD images. The players would be much cheaper than Blu-ray players too. Next-generation DVD players are in a much weaker position than when standard DVD players were first introduced

If the player is $249 or $300 . . . BFD. NO special software to purchase - just buy a DVD.

Sure. there will be those who want/need/crave the very best and BD will be there for them. Just like LD was.

Superman · 03-03-2008, 07:00 PM

That kicks ass. Like someone said, let's get an update for the PS3.

dangerdoc · 03-03-2008, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kamspy

Who's to say these won't cost $500 a pop. The cell ain't cheap.

Toshiba purchased one of the plants that manufactures cell processors.

The spurs engine is a special version of the cell processor. It has all of the hardware needed to encode and decode MPEG2 and MPEG4 streams and has about half of the cells as the processor used in the PS3. They are using standard CMOS instead of the more expensive material used to make the PS3 processor. The down side is that it runs slower that the PS3 processor.

The upside is that it should be cheap to manufacture and is apparently fast enough to do the job. It should cost not much more than the chips used is standard DVD players. They also included every thing needed for a DVDR DVR (really hoping they come through)

I have tons of DVDs. I have hundreds of DVDs that I purchased and hundreds that I have recoded using a DVDR DVR. I would happily shell out a couple hundred dollars for one of these puppies.

Lee Stewart · 03-03-2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dangerdoc

Toshiba purchased one of the plants that manufactures cell processors.

The spurs engine is a special version of the cell processor. It has all of the hardware needed to encode and decode MPEG2 and MPEG4 streams and has about half of the cells as the processor used in the PS3. They are using standard CMOS instead of the more expensive material used to make the PS3 processor. The down side is that it runs slower that the PS3 processor.

The upside is that it should be cheap to manufacture and is apparently fast enough to do the job. It should cost not much more than the chips used is standard DVD players. They also included every thing needed for a DVDR DVR (really hoping they come through)

I have tons of DVDs. I have hundreds of DVDs that I purchased and hundreds that I have recoded using a DVDR DVR. I would happily shell out a couple hundred dollars for one of these puppies.

Hi and welcome to HDF

Yes - the Spurs Engine would be a great application. It is a Cell Processor except with only 4 CPU's as opposed to the 8 of the PS3. But the PS3 needs all 8 because it has to render video games and has less chips in it than a BD player (no SoC).

Cowboy X · 03-03-2008, 07:21 PM

I wonder if th current HD DVD players can be flashed to provide some of this functionality.

Lee Stewart · 03-03-2008, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowboy X

I wonder if th current HD DVD players can be flashed to provide some of this functionality.

Nope - not enough processing power. The Spurs has 1.5 Gz while the PS3 has 3.0 Gz. An HD DVD player only has 400 Mz as far as processing power.

Stew4HD · 03-03-2008, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Nope - not enough processing power. The Spurs has 1.5 Gz while the PS3 has 3.0 Gz. An HD DVD player only has 400 Mz as far as processing power.

What is the final resolution of the UC DVDs on an HD DVD player? How does that differ from the 960p?

I am all for this technology! 120 lines isn't so bad when many people are watching 720/768p anyway!

Plus.. if it hurts BD sales...

My grapes aren't sour, in fact, they are damn sweet!

ChiefJoseph · 03-03-2008, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mobiushky

Sure economics has a lot to do with it. But If I'm going to buy a movie, I don't mind spending $20-25 bucks for it since I know I'd be renting it enough to pay that price anyway. I don't buy a TON of movies, but I'm not going to go backwards now that I know what's out there.

BD Cannot take 4-5 years to come down in price. If they do, they are stupid and killing themselves. I can see $20 average price very soon and older releases in the $10-15 within a year. Player prices will drop within a year as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see a sub-$200 player by Christmas this year.

To me, the only reason to support upconversion over HDM by next year is that a person is blinded by their own personal bias and refuse to accept the results. That type of person will never accept BD. I'm not anywhere neat that biased. In the end, it's all preference. But I'm certainly not going to jump on the "upconverting" bandwagon simply because my HD-DVD players are an obsolete format.

Caveat, for those who have many hundreds of SD-DVDs, I'm not talking about you, I mean from now on. I wouldn't expect anyone to double dip, especially if these players hit. I am refering only to newly purchased movies....

That's not correct. It has nothing to do with the war, but the massive libraries that most people already have. I was in for HD DVD, but I already knew I wouldn't be replacing more that 20 percent of my DVD's. This is for people who have large libraries and wouldn't waste a lot of cash replacing them to just sit in their entertainment center. I am very excited about this technology and would 100 to 1 buy it over blu ray, even if it's 400 bucks.

ChiefJoseph · 03-03-2008, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Here is what the Toshiba CEO said about SR from the other thread:

If the player is $249 or $300 . . . BFD. NO special software to purchase - just buy a DVD.

Sure. there will be those who want/need/crave the very best and BD will be there for them. Just like LD was.

I would be in for 400 myself. This is a total right move by Toshiba. Studios may have been able to dump HD DVD easily. They can't dump DVD, so Toshiba would be smart to create products to push the current market dominated product and help to push blu ray to it's upcoming perpetual niche market.

Stew4HD · 03-03-2008, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefJoseph

I would be in for 400 myself. This is a total right move by Toshiba. Studios may have been able to dump HD DVD easily. They can't dump DVD, so Toshiba would be smart to create products to push the current market dominated product and help to push blu ray to it's upcoming perpetual niche market.

Well said and I am all for it. The idea is so simple yet very cool! Talk about a way to really screw BD over by using what is already being released...

03-03-2008, 07:00 PM	#37
Superman HD makes my pants tight Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Baltimore, MD Age: 39 Posts: 2,801	That kicks ass. Like someone said, let's get an update for the PS3. __________________ Samsung 56" 720p DLP HDTV LG 50pq20 50" 720p Plasma HDTV Olevia 42" 1080p LCD HDTV Onkyo TX-SR674 Receiver Onkyo TX-SR606 Receiver Velodyne CHT Front Row 5 piece speakers Sony SS-SR305 for 7.1 surround sound BIC H-100 subwoofer RCA HDV5000 HD DVD Player Toshiba HD-A3 HD DVD Player Samsung BD-UP5000 BD/HD DVD Player Xbox 360 60GB Xbox 360 20GB PS3 60GB PS3 120GB

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03-03-2008, 07:21 PM	#40
Cowboy X High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 948	I wonder if th current HD DVD players can be flashed to provide some of this functionality.