41st DVD Forum Steering Committee Meeting Approved Resolutions

[Lee Stewart]

41st DVD Forum Steering Committee Meeting Approved Resolutions:

http://www.dvdforum.org/41scmtg-resolution.htm

[Qbfinest83]

what does that mean

[Lee Stewart]

Originally Posted by Qbfinest83

what does that mean

Each of the resolutions was an isse that was voted on, accepted and approved. Each resolution tells you what has transpired.

[Dare]

Had the DVD forum taken any positions with regard to Blu-ray?

[kamspy]

Originally Posted by Dare

Had the DVD forum taken any positions with regard to Blu-ray?

With Sony being extended as vice-chairman, I don't think there will be a DVD advertising assault on BD.

[Dare]

Originally Posted by kamspy

With Sony being extended as vice-chairman, I don't think there will be a DVD advertising assault on BD.

I don't expect the DVD guys to fight Blu-ray, but maybe they can do something to embrace it.

Or not.

[kamspy]

Originally Posted by Dare

I don't expect the DVD guys to fight Blu-ray, but maybe they can do something to embrace it.

Or not.

I would hope so. The same parties are involved in it's benefit.

[Dare]

Originally Posted by kamspy

I would hope so. The same parties are involved in it's benefit.

The balance is just a bit different.

[macphisto]

Toshiba's role as chair continues. This is one of the reasons why the BDA was created and designed differently from the DVD Forum. All of the members of the BDA BoD have equal power and votes in the BDA and can't do things unilaterally like what can go on in the DVD Forum Steering Committee.

I don't expect the DVD Forum to do much with Blu-Ray. I believe that the BDA now holds a majority of the seats on the Steering Committee, so the BDA members clearly supported Toshiba's role as leader. I wonder if this was one negotiating card used in getting them to pull the plug on HD-DVD? I don't know if Sony, Panasonic, or another company had the votes to unseat Toshiba or not if they pushed for it.

[crazyal]

Originally Posted by macphisto

Toshiba's role as chair continues. This is one of the reasons why the BDA was created and designed differently from the DVD Forum. All of the members of the BDA BoD have equal power and votes in the BDA and can't do things unilaterally like what can go on in the DVD Forum Steering Committee.

I don't expect the DVD Forum to do much with Blu-Ray. I believe that the BDA now holds a majority of the seats on the Steering Committee, so the BDA members clearly supported Toshiba's role as leader. I wonder if this was one negotiating card used in getting them to pull the plug on HD-DVD? I don't know if Sony, Panasonic, or another company had the votes to unseat Toshiba or not if they pushed for it.

You lost me. The DVD forum has a steering committee that has 20 members. Each member gets equal say. The BDA was created because Sony didn't have the votes on it's side to get Blu-Ray as the next format of choice by the DVD forum (of course the facts like HD DVD would be ready sooner, Blu-Ray had to develope a protective coating, HD DVD was cheaper, etc.).

The DVD forum will do what ever they see best for the DVD format. If it means going after Blu-Ray then they will. Sony will just not vote if/ when any decisions come up. At the end of the day everyone knows that DVD still rules and Blu-Ray hasn't even made a dent. Blu-Ray may never reach DVD status, every member knows that. I don't think any member would be stupid enough to try and unseat the main patten holder to the DVD format.

[ssjLancer]

You guys make it sound like the CE companies are generals in a warroom.

[tomes]

Originally Posted by crazyal

You lost me. The DVD forum has a steering committee that has 20 members. Each member gets equal say. The BDA was created because Sony didn't have the votes on it's side to get Blu-Ray as the next format of choice by the DVD forum (of course the facts like HD DVD would be ready sooner, Blu-Ray had to develope a protective coating, HD DVD was cheaper, etc.).

The DVD forum will do what ever they see best for the DVD format. If it means going after Blu-Ray then they will. Sony will just not vote if/ when any decisions come up. At the end of the day everyone knows that DVD still rules and Blu-Ray hasn't even made a dent. Blu-Ray may never reach DVD status, every member knows that. I don't think any member would be stupid enough to try and unseat the main patten holder to the DVD format.

I don't know how things transpired back then, but if you look at the list of the companies on the executive committe in the DVD forum, you will find that a clear majority of those are also on the board of the BDA, so unless there was some weird rule about voting back then, or everyone suddenly became BDA friendly after Blu-Ray was launched, it's hard to see how they could not get a majority vote for Blu-Ray. My guess is that it simply wasn't ready at the time - and/or perhaps the companies behind it wasn't really that motivated to have it be part of the dvd forum.

[macphisto]

Originally Posted by crazyal

You lost me. The DVD forum has a steering committee that has 20 members. Each member gets equal say. The BDA was created because Sony didn't have the votes on it's side to get Blu-Ray as the next format of choice by the DVD forum (of course the facts like HD DVD would be ready sooner, Blu-Ray had to develope a protective coating, HD DVD was cheaper, etc.).

Wrong.

The DVD Forum Steering Committee had 17 members at the time of approval of HD-DVD. HD-DVD was originally established in reaction to the formation of the BDA. The original spec for HD-DVD was announced a week after the BDA formed. It was a DVD-9 that used MPEG4 instead of MPEG2 to get 1080p images.

Now, Toshiba did try to get approval for a blue laser medium, but this was also in reaction to the BDA. Toshiba, MS, Warner, and other companies felt that blue lasers would be too expensive and uneconomical until info from the BDA said otherwise. The members of the BDA used the rules of the DVD Forum to stonewall the development of a blue laser based HD-DVD by abstaining. Abstentions at that point counted as "no" votes. Toshiba, who has chaired the DVD Forum since the beginning IIRC, unilaterally changed the rules so that abstentions would not longer be counted in the vote. HD-DVD (blue laser) was approved for development by an 8-6 vote. Not even a majority of the members of the steering committee voted for it.

Because of their troubles getting HD-DVD through, Toshiba then unilaterally added three companies to the steering committee that were essentially Toshiba puppets that would guarantee a majority vote in the future. That is why the steering committee is now 20 members. They don't have an equal vote. The chair company has quite a bit of power in the Forum. They cannot unilaterally approve a standard or approve marketing, etc but they can change voting rules and add members to the steering committee without a vote.

This cannot happen with the BDA because the Board of Directors has to have a super majority to approve any addition to the BoD and to change voting rules.

As I said, Toshiba has always wielded a ton of power in the DVD Forum. It is one of the reasons why the BDA was formed. That and the fact that many DVD Forum members weren't sold on blue laser technology. Without the formation of the BDA there would likely be no HD-DVD as it is today. It was this move by Sony, Panasonic, Phillips, and others that forced the DVD Forum to respond and also go with a blue laser.

The DVD forum will do what ever they see best for the DVD format. If it means going after Blu-Ray then they will. Sony will just not vote if/ when any decisions come up. At the end of the day everyone knows that DVD still rules and Blu-Ray hasn't even made a dent. Blu-Ray may never reach DVD status, every member knows that. I don't think any member would be stupid enough to try and unseat the main patten holder to the DVD format.

You never know. I'd guess that they would not have replaced them with Sony, but I could see Panasonic as a possibility. The point is that the BDA now controls at least 10 seats on the Steering Committee and I think that it may actually be 11. They could have at least made re-election hard by creating a split vote. If they did have 11 then they could have actually voted to end HD-DVD as a format. I doubt that would have happened because of the legal issues, but the BDA companies certainly could have made it difficult to get some things done.

DVD does still rule, but its sales are declining. The industry is looking for a future replacement. That's the reason some in the DVD Forum were so anxious to find a next gen format. They knew the gravy train wouldn't run forever, especially with increasing HDTV sales. Some of those members were recruited by Phillips and Sony. Actually a great many were. Others waited until the BDA announcement to react and do something.

They're not going to go after Blu-Ray. How can they? Run a campaign about how people should ignore the better picture? They will continue to promote DVD and that is in the best interest of even Sony right now. The DVD Forum will just get out of the HD market and possibly be superseded by the BDA if Blu-Ray ever does overtake DVD. This will mean far less influence for Toshiba.

[crazyal]

Originally Posted by macphisto

Wrong.

The DVD Forum Steering Committee had 17 members at the time of approval of HD-DVD. HD-DVD was originally established in reaction to the formation of the BDA. The original spec for HD-DVD was announced a week after the BDA formed. It was a DVD-9 that used MPEG4 instead of MPEG2 to get 1080p images.

That was not the original spec for HD DVD, if you're going to call someone wrong then you should at least get it right. What you described was a proposal by Warner to use existing red lasers and moving to a more avanced compression than Mpeg-2. They proposed this because the DVD forum was worried about using a blue laser.

Originally Posted by macphisto

Now, Toshiba did try to get approval for a blue laser medium, but this was also in reaction to the BDA. Toshiba, MS, Warner, and other companies felt that blue lasers would be too expensive and uneconomical until info from the BDA said otherwise. The members of the BDA used the rules of the DVD Forum to stonewall the development of a blue laser based HD-DVD by abstaining. Abstentions at that point counted as "no" votes. Toshiba, who has chaired the DVD Forum since the beginning IIRC, unilaterally changed the rules so that abstentions would not longer be counted in the vote. HD-DVD (blue laser) was approved for development by an 8-6 vote. Not even a majority of the members of the steering committee voted for it.

The DVD forum decided against Blu-Ray because of it's problems. Blu-Ray's disc caddy was a no go for studio support, it was seen as too cumbersom and expensive. The format was not mature enough and couldn't be made ready as quickly as the forum wanted. Hell they final specifications weren't even finalized until 2006. The cost was clearly going to be too high. Blu-Ray was voted down by the DVD forum. In other words Blu-Ray didn't have support of at least half of the Steering committee.

Toshiba and NEC came up with a proposal for a blue laser format that would not require the caddy. The format would use existing stamping plants. the formats costs would be much less than Blu-Ray. Twice it was brought before the steering committee and rejected. The idea that a group of the steering committe would be working on a rival format never entered into the thinking when the rules were drafted. Since those members couldn't vote against AOD (soon to be renamed HD DVD) without opening themselves up to a lawsuit they abstained.

The rules had to be changed because those working on Blu-Ray, due to a conflict of intrest, were still being counted. The DVD forum had to change the rules, just like the BDA will if they ever find themselves in the same boat. Even the DOJ got involved until the rules were changed.

Originally Posted by macphisto

Because of their troubles getting HD-DVD through, Toshiba then unilaterally added three companies to the steering committee that were essentially Toshiba puppets that would guarantee a majority vote in the future. That is why the steering committee is now 20 members. They don't have an equal vote. The chair company has quite a bit of power in the Forum. They cannot unilaterally approve a standard or approve marketing, etc but they can change voting rules and add members to the steering committee without a vote.

The DVD forum would be nothing without Toshiba. They walk the forum dies.

Originally Posted by macphisto

This cannot happen with the BDA because the Board of Directors has to have a super majority to approve any addition to the BoD and to change voting rules.

As I said, Toshiba has always wielded a ton of power in the DVD Forum. It is one of the reasons why the BDA was formed. That and the fact that many DVD Forum members weren't sold on blue laser technology. Without the formation of the BDA there would likely be no HD-DVD as it is today. It was this move by Sony, Panasonic, Phillips, and others that forced the DVD Forum to respond and also go with a blue laser.

After being rejected Sony spearheaded the BDA. In order to get other CEMs on board they had to make this concession. If Sony could have control like Toshiba has over the DVD forum they would.

Originally Posted by macphisto

You never know. I'd guess that they would not have replaced them with Sony, but I could see Panasonic as a possibility. The point is that the BDA now controls at least 10 seats on the Steering Committee and I think that it may actually be 11. They could have at least made re-election hard by creating a split vote. If they did have 11 then they could have actually voted to end HD-DVD as a format. I doubt that would have happened because of the legal issues, but the BDA companies certainly could have made it difficult to get some things done.

Any move that favors Blu-Ray over DVD made at the DVD forum could lead to legal issues. The DVD forum was formed to support DVD not Blu-Ray. Every member of the DVD forum knows this and will not make a move.

Originally Posted by macphisto

DVD does still rule, but its sales are declining. The industry is looking for a future replacement. That's the reason some in the DVD Forum were so anxious to find a next gen format. They knew the gravy train wouldn't run forever, especially with increasing HDTV sales. Some of those members were recruited by Phillips and Sony. Actually a great many were. Others waited until the BDA announcement to react and do something.

Sales may be declining but Blu-Ray sales are a very small percentage of DVD sales. The industry is not just looking at Blu-Ray to be that replacement. One of the reasons why HD DVD was offered to the DVD forum was because the forum knew it's just a matter of time before other technologies took over. As it is now Warner is releasing numberious day and date titles on "On Demand" the same time as they come out on DVD and Blu-Ray.

Others waited until Sony made concessions to them to get them on board. For example Disney spent a lot of time and money working on HDi with M$.

Originally Posted by macphisto

They're not going to go after Blu-Ray. How can they? Run a campaign about how people should ignore the better picture? They will continue to promote DVD and that is in the best interest of even Sony right now. The DVD Forum will just get out of the HD market and possibly be superseded by the BDA if Blu-Ray ever does overtake DVD. This will mean far less influence for Toshiba.

And far more for Sony, your point? The DVD forum will just include HD DVD along with Warner's proposal as things it's approved but not being used. If something new comes along and gets offered to the DVD forum they will vote on it.

[macphisto]

Originally Posted by crazyal

That was not the original spec for HD DVD, if you're going to call someone wrong then you should at least get it right. What you described was a proposal by Warner to use existing red lasers and moving to a more avanced compression than Mpeg-2. They proposed this because the DVD forum was worried about using a blue laser.

No, it was not the original spec for what is now HD-DVD, but it was the original path that was approved by the DVD Forum in a vote. It was not just a proposal by WB, it was approved by the DVD Forum in March of 2002, a few weeks after Blu-Ray Disc was announced and the BDA was formed.

The DVD forum decided against Blu-Ray because of it's problems. Blu-Ray's disc caddy was a no go for studio support, it was seen as too cumbersom and expensive. The format was not mature enough and couldn't be made ready as quickly as the forum wanted. Hell they final specifications weren't even finalized until 2006. The cost was clearly going to be too high. Blu-Ray was voted down by the DVD forum. In other words Blu-Ray didn't have support of at least half of the Steering committee.

Wrong again. Blu-Ray was NEVER voted on by the Steering Committee. It was ALWAYS a separate entity.

Toshiba and NEC went ahead with their own tech, something that was allowed by the Steering Committee even prior to a rules change.

The caddy was an issue, but several steering committee members were still committed to BD due to the storage and mastering potential of the format.

It wasn't until late 2003 that HD-DVD was officially approved by a vote of 8-6 in the 17 member Steering Committee after a rules change implemented by Toshiba. About 53% of the Steering Committee either abstained or vote against HD-DVD. Had the BDA members actually voted then HD-DVD would never have been approved but they also could have been subject to an antitrust investigation.

LG, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, Samsung, Sharp, Panasonic, Sony, Pioneer, Phillips, and Thomson were all in the BDA camp at the time of the HD-DVD vote. Some were less committed to the format than others, but 10 members of the Steering Committee out of 17 were also members of the BDA. Samsung, Hitachi, LG, and Thomson were really the three less committed members and were willing to help on HD-DVD to a certain extent. TDK was another in the BD camp that was willing to work on both sides. Yet all had signed up with the BDA before the DVD Forum really seriously pursued their own blue laser format.

Toshiba and NEC came up with a proposal for a blue laser format that would not require the caddy. The format would use existing stamping plants. the formats costs would be much less than Blu-Ray. Twice it was brought before the steering committee and rejected. The idea that a group of the steering committe would be working on a rival format never entered into the thinking when the rules were drafted. Since those members couldn't vote against AOD (soon to be renamed HD DVD) without opening themselves up to a lawsuit they abstained.

True enough.

The rules had to be changed because those working on Blu-Ray, due to a conflict of intrest, were still being counted. The DVD forum had to change the rules, just like the BDA will if they ever find themselves in the same boat. Even the DOJ got involved until the rules were changed.

The DOJ didn't really get involved. It looked into things until the complaint from Warner was dropped. The DOJ would have found that the BD companies weren't really doing anything wrong.

One of the reasons that has not been largely reported for WB dropping the complaint was that there were some involved in the investigation that felt some of the other DVD Forum companies were involved in some corporate sabotage to steal tech from BDA companies, but that has never been heavily reported. It was used as a chip for WB to back off.

The BDA cannot change the rules unilaterally like Toshiba did. They didn't take a vote from members because the BDA members would have voted against a rule change. Toshiba shoved their format down the DVD Forum's throats because they could.

The DVD forum would be nothing without Toshiba. They walk the forum dies.

Maybe, maybe not. There'd be the issue of royalties, but I think Tosh would still get the same royalties, they'd just not have the control over the format.

After being rejected Sony spearheaded the BDA. In order to get other CEMs on board they had to make this concession. If Sony could have control like Toshiba has over the DVD forum they would.

How was Sony rejected when they never brought BD up with the Forum? They went around the DVD Forum from the start because they knew Toshiba would not want to lose royalties and they knew that Toshiba was in charge and would never open up to a format that they didn't play an integral part in creating.

Toshiba did all they could to beat Sony's MMCD to the marketplace too, but Sony relented and didn't get into a war over that. Toshiba had been jealous of Sony and Phillips' royalties from CDs and wanted to protect their newfound royalties.

Any move that favors Blu-Ray over DVD made at the DVD forum could lead to legal issues. The DVD forum was formed to support DVD not Blu-Ray. Every member of the DVD forum knows this and will not make a move.

Maybe. I think it would be hard to press legal action if Toshiba was not elected chair again. What could they claim? That it wasn't rigged like it was supposed to be? If the DVD Forum then took action to hamper DVD then they'd have a case, but if it was just a simple case of ousting Toshiba from the catbird seat then there's not much that could be done.

Sales may be declining but Blu-Ray sales are a very small percentage of DVD sales. The industry is not just looking at Blu-Ray to be that replacement. One of the reasons why HD DVD was offered to the DVD forum was because the forum knew it's just a matter of time before other technologies took over. As it is now Warner is releasing numberious day and date titles on "On Demand" the same time as they come out on DVD and Blu-Ray.

On Demand is not owned by individuals in their private collections.

The fact of the matter is that downloads and cable, satellite, or terrestrial broadcasts will not be able to match the bitrate of BD for a long while. I'd say we're at least five years away from a realistic alternative and maybe closer to ten before people have fast enough connections with enough bandwidth to handle 53Mbps on demand.

HD-DVD was created in reaction to Blu-Ray. There would likely never have been an HD-DVD format without Sony sticking to their guns and being the visionaries that believed in the blue laser format, at least we wouldn't have seen it come out in 2006.

Toshiba was afraid of losing control of the massive royalties they enjoy from DVD. They decide to ram a blue laser tech through the DVD Forum in an attempt to beat the far more innovative BDA group to the market to keep royalties and control the future market.

Others waited until Sony made concessions to them to get them on board. For example Disney spent a lot of time and money working on HDi with M$.

Yes and dumped it when Iger came on board and the company changed directions. Disney likely would have released in HD-DVD if not for Bob Iger.

And far more for Sony, your point? The DVD forum will just include HD DVD along with Warner's proposal as things it's approved but not being used. If something new comes along and gets offered to the DVD forum they will vote on it.

Yes, they'll vote and the BDA members will be happy to continue to promote DVD because they make money off of it. The BDA will probably launch campaigns to show the great difference between BD and DVD in an attempt to get more people on board.

It's a long road to overtake DVD and it probably won't happen for another 3-4 years.