Now that Blu-Ray has won, can BD fans admit the following?

02-25-2008, 06:31 AM

I "admit" that i like the higher bitrate and the potential that comes with it.

Deja Vu · 02-25-2008, 08:14 AM

All of this stuff is moot! What happens if BD doesn't make it because of lack of consumer interest or profile issues turn people off. Would Toshiba bring back HD DVD to fill a void. I doubt it. It is always wise to have a plan "B", but now we don't.

Cheers,

Grant

Albee · 02-25-2008, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiramAbiff

The DVD Forum and the BDA could have unified if Sony had been willing to give an inch to Microsoft by accepting the use of HDi instead of BD-Java on discs
Yeah, I said it. :-P They won't even let the official X-Box magazine give *good* reviews to their tvs, so strong is their hatred of all things X-Box-related!

Acutally the best chance at unifying the formats ended when Toshiba and Sony met to discuss it and neither sdie was willng to budge on the actual physical storage specs (i.e. bulk of roylaties) so it was a no go.

While Sony probably exerts the most influence in the BDA they don't always get what they want. In the final vote for HDi and BDJava Sony actually voted for HDi.

cbcdesign · 02-25-2008, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albee

While Sony probably exerts the most influence in the BDA they don't always get what they want. In the final vote for HDi and BDJava Sony actually voted for HDi.

Then Sony have just gone up in my estimation.

Jimmy Smith · 02-25-2008, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiramAbiff

It's okay, it won't hurt your format anymore. I wouldn't expect to make any headway on blu-ray.com, because those people simply don't have their facts straight (and anybody who does gets banned), but you peeps are generally more educated.

BD's size advantage was irrelevant for movies given the superior compression codecs available, and trivial for extras/double-discing.
Hmm? And if you're going to come back with "why a 51GB HD DVD then?" instead of admitting the truth, then I'll retort "to satisfy the ignoramuses who run studios and to appease the recording medium crowd." (once again showing how non-movie concerns affected who won the movie format war)

BD didn't have a chance without the PS3
I know some of you gleefully admit this, but others of you try to sweep the PS3 effect under the rug. BD didn't win on any of its strengths as a format, but rather due to the PS3 effect.

The PS3 didn't have a chance without Sony taking a $300-$500 hit on each console during its early days
It's a hole they still haven't climbed out of. The format can survive without Sony, just as LD survived without RCA helming it (cuz Pioneer took over the reins), but it's worth mentioning because Sony's "brilliant business decision" has not been proven yet.

There's little to no audible difference between DD+, DTS-HD, and lossless audio
Even studio engineers can't hear a difference on reference equipment, so don't say you can. Now, with the hi-fi world being replete with people who swear there is a difference when they put green ink on their CDs or elevate their speaker cables off the floor, I'm not expecting much concession with this one.

The differing profiles are a substantive issue
Player manufacturers themselves (not Sony of course) have talked about the potential compatibility problems with even basic movie playback with 1.1 on 1.0 players.

The DVD Forum and the BDA could have unified if Sony had been willing to give an inch to Microsoft by accepting the use of HDi instead of BD-Java on discs
Yeah, I said it. :-P They won't even let the official X-Box magazine give *good* reviews to their tvs, so strong is their hatred of all things X-Box-related!

2 and 3 might be true. 5 is definutly true. The rest are bullshit.

Blu-Rays extra storage made things like high definition extras and lossless audio far more common on Blu-Ray then they were on HD-DVD for a reason. Paramount even admitted that they had to drop lossless tracks due to space issues.

Lossless audio is clearly a step above any lossy form. That doesn't mean some lossy discs don't sound great too but lossless is clearly better whenever its tried. For example many DVDs with dolby digital sound got full 5 star ratings but when both Dolby digital and DTS were presented on the same disc the DTS version was always better. Its the same with lossless audio.

Also Microsoft wanted this format war to further their downloads market. Microsoft even admitted that even if Blu-Ray had accepted IHD they still would have supported HD-DVD.

ilovehddvd · 02-25-2008, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiramAbiff

It's okay, it won't hurt your format anymore. I wouldn't expect to make any headway on blu-ray.com, because those people simply don't have their facts straight (and anybody who does gets banned), but you peeps are generally more educated.

BD's size advantage was irrelevant for movies given the superior compression codecs available, and trivial for extras/double-discing.
Hmm? And if you're going to come back with "why a 51GB HD DVD then?" instead of admitting the truth, then I'll retort "to satisfy the ignoramuses who run studios and to appease the recording medium crowd." (once again showing how non-movie concerns affected who won the movie format war)

BD didn't have a chance without the PS3
I know some of you gleefully admit this, but others of you try to sweep the PS3 effect under the rug. BD didn't win on any of its strengths as a format, but rather due to the PS3 effect.

The PS3 didn't have a chance without Sony taking a $300-$500 hit on each console during its early days
It's a hole they still haven't climbed out of. The format can survive without Sony, just as LD survived without RCA helming it (cuz Pioneer took over the reins), but it's worth mentioning because Sony's "brilliant business decision" has not been proven yet.

There's little to no audible difference between DD+, DTS-HD, and lossless audio
Even studio engineers can't hear a difference on reference equipment, so don't say you can. Now, with the hi-fi world being replete with people who swear there is a difference when they put green ink on their CDs or elevate their speaker cables off the floor, I'm not expecting much concession with this one.

The differing profiles are a substantive issue
Player manufacturers themselves (not Sony of course) have talked about the potential compatibility problems with even basic movie playback with 1.1 on 1.0 players.

The DVD Forum and the BDA could have unified if Sony had been willing to give an inch to Microsoft by accepting the use of HDi instead of BD-Java on discs
Yeah, I said it. :-P They won't even let the official X-Box magazine give *good* reviews to their tvs, so strong is their hatred of all things X-Box-related!

Well put.

ilovehddvd · 02-25-2008, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiramAbiff

It's okay, it won't hurt your format anymore. I wouldn't expect to make any headway on blu-ray.com, because those people simply don't have their facts straight (and anybody who does gets banned), but you peeps are generally more educated.

BD's size advantage was irrelevant for movies given the superior compression codecs available, and trivial for extras/double-discing.
Hmm? And if you're going to come back with "why a 51GB HD DVD then?" instead of admitting the truth, then I'll retort "to satisfy the ignoramuses who run studios and to appease the recording medium crowd." (once again showing how non-movie concerns affected who won the movie format war)

BD didn't have a chance without the PS3
I know some of you gleefully admit this, but others of you try to sweep the PS3 effect under the rug. BD didn't win on any of its strengths as a format, but rather due to the PS3 effect.

The PS3 didn't have a chance without Sony taking a $300-$500 hit on each console during its early days
It's a hole they still haven't climbed out of. The format can survive without Sony, just as LD survived without RCA helming it (cuz Pioneer took over the reins), but it's worth mentioning because Sony's "brilliant business decision" has not been proven yet.

There's little to no audible difference between DD+, DTS-HD, and lossless audio
Even studio engineers can't hear a difference on reference equipment, so don't say you can. Now, with the hi-fi world being replete with people who swear there is a difference when they put green ink on their CDs or elevate their speaker cables off the floor, I'm not expecting much concession with this one.

The differing profiles are a substantive issue
Player manufacturers themselves (not Sony of course) have talked about the potential compatibility problems with even basic movie playback with 1.1 on 1.0 players.

The DVD Forum and the BDA could have unified if Sony had been willing to give an inch to Microsoft by accepting the use of HDi instead of BD-Java on discs
Yeah, I said it. :-P They won't even let the official X-Box magazine give *good* reviews to their tvs, so strong is their hatred of all things X-Box-related!

You left out one major and often ignored point about BD:

Blu-Ray DRM scheme is oppressive to consumers, and, as a result enticing to studios and content owners.

Also, everyone needs to admit that the optical disc format is doomed to be lost to Video on Demand, PPV, and downloads. Don't give me the crap that downloads take too long either, downloads are still days faster than Netflix (but slower than going to the store.)

fryet · 02-25-2008, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilovehddvd

You left out one major and often ignored point about BD:

Blu-Ray DRM scheme is oppressive to consumers, and, as a result enticing to studios and content owners.

Also, everyone needs to admit that the optical disc format is doomed to be lost to Video on Demand, PPV, and downloads. Don't give me the crap that downloads take too long either, downloads are still days faster than Netflix (but slower than going to the store.)

No, I will not admit that.

We don't know who will win in the future, so I don't think we can say anything is a done deal. Downloads may be a big deal when it comes to the rental market, however when it comes to purchasing a movie to keep, I doubt that most will choose a very long download over having a physical disk to keep, plus the disk will have less compression so will be superior to a download.

fryet · 02-25-2008, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiramAbiff

It's okay, it won't hurt your format anymore. I wouldn't expect to make any headway on blu-ray.com, because those people simply don't have their facts straight (and anybody who does gets banned), but you peeps are generally more educated.

BD's size advantage was irrelevant for movies given the superior compression codecs available, and trivial for extras/double-discing.
Hmm? And if you're going to come back with "why a 51GB HD DVD then?" instead of admitting the truth, then I'll retort "to satisfy the ignoramuses who run studios and to appease the recording medium crowd." (once again showing how non-movie concerns affected who won the movie format war)
No, this is the biggest selling point for me. More space and bitrate means less compression can be used. Granted so far it doesn't appear that the extra space has been used effectively. I will say that HD-DVD did give a quality product with the lesser space.

BD didn't have a chance without the PS3
I know some of you gleefully admit this, but others of you try to sweep the PS3 effect under the rug. BD didn't win on any of its strengths as a format, but rather due to the PS3 effect.
I would agree. BR was unfinished and was more expensive. In all fairness, the biggest issue was studio support, but I doubt studios would have been as eager to choose BR if they didn't think PS3 was going to help BR win. Personally, I think it is a good thing the PS3 had the BR drive. It has pushed much faster the adoption of HD drives.

The PS3 didn't have a chance without Sony taking a $300-$500 hit on each console during its early days
It's a hole they still haven't climbed out of. The format can survive without Sony, just as LD survived without RCA helming it (cuz Pioneer took over the reins), but it's worth mentioning because Sony's "brilliant business decision" has not been proven yet.
This is normal in the gaming market to sell the game machines at a loss. It is probably hurting Sony, though, in that many are buying the PS3 as a movie player and buying fewer games.

There's little to no audible difference between DD+, DTS-HD, and lossless audio
Even studio engineers can't hear a difference on reference equipment, so don't say you can. Now, with the hi-fi world being replete with people who swear there is a difference when they put green ink on their CDs or elevate their speaker cables off the floor, I'm not expecting much concession with this one.
No idea on this one. I like having more space so that movie creators have the flexibility to choose what they think is best.

The differing profiles are a substantive issue
Player manufacturers themselves (not Sony of course) have talked about the potential compatibility problems with even basic movie playback with 1.1 on 1.0 players.
It is somewhat of a concern, but not huge. The average consumer may never notice the difference.

The DVD Forum and the BDA could have unified if Sony had been willing to give an inch to Microsoft by accepting the use of HDi instead of BD-Java on discs
Yeah, I said it. :-P They won't even let the official X-Box magazine give *good* reviews to their tvs, so strong is their hatred of all things X-Box-related!

I don't think this is true.

02-25-2008, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilovehddvd

You left out one major and often ignored point about BD:

Blu-Ray DRM scheme is oppressive to consumers, and, as a result enticing to studios and content owners.

Well, if the DRM is running silently in the background, imo even BD+ is not oppressive as far as hardware like the PS3 or standalones are concerned. BD playback of BD+ titles on a pc are a real p.i.t.a. though.

The region coding is also part of the DRM, but we are used to it from DVD. So HD DVD would have been a big improvement, whereas BD is a smaller improvement (as the majority of BD titles is region free, even some day&dates).

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilovehddvd

Also, everyone needs to admit that the optical disc format is doomed to be lost to Video on Demand, PPV, and downloads. Don't give me the crap that downloads take too long either, downloads are still days faster than Netflix (but slower than going to the store.)

No, i don´t believe that at all. Blu-ray imo can take a big size of the whole home video cake, it doesn´t have to be as dominant as DVD is/was. So it will be able to coexist side by side with the electronic distribution imo without any problems.

preFUR · 02-25-2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatt

It's not because I don't want to! I'm in a heated debate over on another forum right now discussing why I am still pissed at the British for burning the White House. I'll try and get back to answer this later when time allows.

Wow. I have never known of anyone besides myself who cares about the burning of Washington, D.C. by the British. I was so angry during the broadcasts about the World Trade Center attacks when all those "historians" and reporters who should know better kept referring to those attacks as only the "second" on U.S. soil (with the "first" being the Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor)...morons.

Why the U.S. and all the other former colonies of the British overlords still feel the need to kiss British ass is beyond me. The continued idolizing of the ridiculous "monarchs" is hilarious yet repulsive. And Queen Victoria was the worst "drug lord" in history, yet people look to her reign as a high point of British history...WTF?

The U.S. is supposed to be consumed with guilt over its government's indiscretions and evil acts, yet no one dare mention the countless atrocities committed by the British.

Jimmy Smith · 02-25-2008, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiramAbiff

It's okay, it won't hurt your format anymore. I wouldn't expect to make any headway on blu-ray.com, because those people simply don't have their facts straight (and anybody who does gets banned), but you peeps are generally more educated.

You really are an arrogant and ignorant son of a bitch aren't you. To say that Blu-Ray fans have been lying to save there format and now that its over they will finally admitt the truth is just insulting. We Blu-Ray fans supported the format cause we truely believe that most of your points are total and complete bullshit. I am really glad HD-DVD lost so that lies and bullshit like the stuff you just put out hopefully disappear.

Dare · 02-25-2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiramAbiff

I got the idea when somebody (maybe on another forum) said they were a BD fan but were glad they could now talk openly about the profiles problem, and hoped that Sony might do something about it. So it got me thinking how "open" BD fans in general might be to backing down from some of their talking points, now that they "have nothing to lose."

Well, now he's stuck with a format that he saw serious flaws with in the beginning. Who's the monkey now?

whoelse · 02-25-2008, 11:19 AM

I think if there was no blu-ray PS3, Sony would have used a different strategy to win the war so we don't know.

Bravestime · 02-25-2008, 12:48 PM

Who's to say if Sony did not have the PS3 advantage they wouldn't have reduced their player prices. They wouldn't have allowed their technology go down the tubes with player prices higher than HD-DVD. If they didn't reduced player prices they would have used another action to sale software. It is certainly BS for anyone to think Sony/BD would not take some action to win the war, including lower player prices if needed, as Toshiba was FORCED to do.

02-25-2008, 11:19 AM	#44
whoelse V-Day: February 19th 2008 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: England Posts: 158	I think if there was no blu-ray PS3, Sony would have used a different strategy to win the war so we don't know. __________________ http://www.petitiononline.com/ipodapps http://grindmygears.net \| http://pslegion.com War is Over: We ALL can now help BD become the next BIG thing!

02-25-2008, 12:48 PM	#45
Bravestime Supporter of HiDef Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Aiken, SC Age: 56 Posts: 4,510	Who's to say if Sony did not have the PS3 advantage they wouldn't have reduced their player prices. They wouldn't have allowed their technology go down the tubes with player prices higher than HD-DVD. If they didn't reduced player prices they would have used another action to sale software. It is certainly BS for anyone to think Sony/BD would not take some action to win the war, including lower player prices if needed, as Toshiba was FORCED to do. __________________ Life is Short, Watch a Movie

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02-25-2008, 06:31 AM	#31
Nikopol Guest Posts: n/a	I "admit" that i like the higher bitrate and the potential that comes with it.

02-25-2008, 08:14 AM	#32
Deja Vu We Are Right (WAR) ! Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Great White North Posts: 625	All of this stuff is moot! What happens if BD doesn't make it because of lack of consumer interest or profile issues turn people off. Would Toshiba bring back HD DVD to fill a void. I doubt it. It is always wise to have a plan "B", but now we don't. Cheers, Grant