The Reason We Still Have Black Bars on Our Screens

danielm1 · 02-03-2008, 03:09 PM

Here is another tidbit of info on the ratios of movies pertaining to what should be seen in the theater.....i was a projectionist last summer .

There were two types of films that i showed which had their corresponding lenses. 1.7:1 and 1.8:1 ratios were what we called "Flat" films that had a narrower screen and needed a regular lens in showing them.

The 2.3:1 and 2.4:1 ratios were what we called "Scope" films and for this type of movie the screen had to be widened and the use of a scope lens had to be used.

So just for anybody who didn't know thats the reason some films have black bars on the top ad bottom is that they are shot by two different methods...
1.7/1.8:1 = "Flat" = Fills entire 16x9 screen or 2.3/2.4:1 = "Scope" = Has black bars on 16x9 screen. It just depends on what the director wanted to use.

quexos · 02-03-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kamspy

Thanks for the kind words everybody.

Your post is visually very clear. I hope it will help the majority to understand what a few of us already knew. I have tried to explain to someone in the past that the top and bottom bars are not added but actually an "out-of-the-picture" field and it's the only way to see the picture "fully" But some people don't understand and the most ignorant ones think a full screen on a square TV is "better".

Just one question for the first pic of your example: for square TV's don't they center the picture ? I mean you should see the guy in the middle and a piece of both left and right guys, but you got the guy in the left + guy in the middle ...

Gotta call your post what it is: a great post

HiramAbiff · 02-03-2008, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HD Goofnut

Also, full screen is not a big deal if you are watching a drama.

You asked for it...

Lawrence of Arabia
Hidden Fortress
2001: A Space Odyssey
Dr. Zhivago
Solaris
Andrei Rublev
High and Low
8 1/2
Heavenly Creatures
Spartacus
The Thin Red Line
The New World
And on, and on, and on...

:-P

HiramAbiff · 02-03-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cougardew

The funny part to me is that I used to hear people complain about the black bars on their 4:3 TV and buy full screen. Now everybody is buying wide screen TVs so full screen DVDs have black bars just on the sides instead of the top and bottom. I tried to warn people but they didn't want to hear it. I wonder what they think of their full screen DVD collections now.

"Think"?

Nike · 02-03-2008, 08:24 PM

Great Thread! Never knew there was such a difference. I might go get children of men just because you said that.

HiramAbiff · 02-03-2008, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kamspy

Criterion CAV

Favorite LD of all time. Swear it's better than the DVD. Can't wait for the HDM release.

There's something very aesthetically pleasing about those analog scanlines versus the sharply delineated pixels of DVD, isn't there? Even on my CRT RPTV standard DVDs can look pretty harsh, and CRT RPTVs have the softest-delineated pixels around.

Something I'm glad HD DVD can cover up by sheer pixel volume.

blazed54 · 02-03-2008, 11:00 PM

great thread! but perhaps you should've used another scene?? haha i'm sure there are some people out there who would say, "why do i need to see that picture frame to enjoy the movie?" haha i know it's ridiculous but I guarantee some will say that.

Bravestime · 02-03-2008, 11:18 PM

Yes, this is very good information. I would also hope it is part of a sticky.

El Despairado · 02-04-2008, 01:23 AM

This is great information, but I still can't believe that it takes this level of explaination for people to understand why black bars are their friend???

Part of me wonders if even presented with this evidence people still won't whine. Now we'll probably get people going, "I wish they would just film everything in 1.85:1 or 1.77:1 from now on".... ugh.

Anway, good thread Kamspy

Nikopol · 02-04-2008, 03:16 AM

Great post, kamspy! Hope this will be a sticky.

HiramAbiff · 02-04-2008, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Despairado

This is great information, but I still can't believe that it takes this level of explaination for people to understand why black bars are their friend???

Part of me wonders if even presented with this evidence people still won't whine. Now we'll probably get people going, "I wish they would just film everything in 1.85:1 or 1.77:1 from now on".... ugh.

Anway, good thread Kamspy

Frankly, I wish they would too. I believe that most movies filmed in scope didn't make a good enough use of it to really justify it. Which is not to say that such movies should be cropped, but that when deciding what format to film a movie in, I think directors ought to really consider if they are taking true advantage of the scope format or just using it as a cheap and easy way to make everything look grander.

I still wish 4:3 were a viable projection format, because many films could use expressive height more than expressive width and panorama. Maybe with digital projection....

**kamspy** · 02-04-2008, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiramAbiff

There's something very aesthetically pleasing about those analog scanlines versus the sharply delineated pixels of DVD, isn't there? Even on my CRT RPTV standard DVDs can look pretty harsh, and CRT RPTVs have the softest-delineated pixels around.

Something I'm glad HD DVD can cover up by sheer pixel volume.

Yes there is Hiram. Yes there is.

Hard to explain. Kind of soothing almost.

Dare · 02-04-2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielm1

Here is another tidbit of info on the ratios of movies pertaining to what should be seen in the theater.....i was a projectionist last summer .

There were two types of films that i showed which had their corresponding lenses. 1.7:1 and 1.8:1 ratios were what we called "Flat" films that had a narrower screen and needed a regular lens in showing them.

The 2.3:1 and 2.4:1 ratios were what we called "Scope" films and for this type of movie the screen had to be widened and the use of a scope lens had to be used.

So just for anybody who didn't know thats the reason some films have black bars on the top ad bottom is that they are shot by two different methods...
1.7/1.8:1 = "Flat" = Fills entire 16x9 screen or 2.3/2.4:1 = "Scope" = Has black bars on 16x9 screen. It just depends on what the director wanted to use.

Did you notice how some flat movies have black bars on the film, and some don't, which gives them a 1.33:1 aspect ratio on the film? And yet they are all cropped down to 1.85:1 when projected.

I was a projectionist in '88-'90.

Semp1 · 02-04-2008, 01:58 PM

People should also understand that if you're TV does not over scan 185:1 also has small black bars and 178:1 and slightly below are the only Aspect ratios with out any black bars....

danielm1 · 02-04-2008, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dare

Did you notice how some flat movies have black bars on the film, and some don't, which gives them a 1.33:1 aspect ratio on the film? And yet they are all cropped down to 1.85:1 when projected.

I was a projectionist in '88-'90.

Very interesting. I noticed that their were black bars on the top and bottom on the "flat" movies but felt that that would be to much detail to describe here. But as far as noticing flat movies with "no bars" I did not catch any. Its funny that a 1.33:1 movie is actually a 4:3 but when shown 1.85:1 means it comes out as a zoomed in 4:3! Probably lost a lot of image and had some framing issues if everything did not happened in the center of the movie. Workin at a movie theater has definitely attributed to my love and understanding on how movies are viewed and heard. Wish most people could experience the details that are involved in their movie watchin.

Projectionist '01-'03 then again last summer

02-03-2008, 03:09 PM	#16
danielm1 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 32	Here is another tidbit of info on the ratios of movies pertaining to what should be seen in the theater.....i was a projectionist last summer . There were two types of films that i showed which had their corresponding lenses. 1.7:1 and 1.8:1 ratios were what we called "Flat" films that had a narrower screen and needed a regular lens in showing them. The 2.3:1 and 2.4:1 ratios were what we called "Scope" films and for this type of movie the screen had to be widened and the use of a scope lens had to be used. So just for anybody who didn't know thats the reason some films have black bars on the top ad bottom is that they are shot by two different methods... 1.7/1.8:1 = "Flat" = Fills entire 16x9 screen or 2.3/2.4:1 = "Scope" = Has black bars on 16x9 screen. It just depends on what the director wanted to use. __________________ Television-Hitachi 42H401 & Samsung FP-T5084 Player-Toshiba HD-A2 & HD-A35 Receiver-Onkyo TX-SR705 Speakers-Onkyo HTIB HT-S790 Subwoofer-Polk PSW125 Accessories-XBox 360 Elite, a Wii, PS3 80GB, and a DS-Lite HD DVDs-59 Blu-Ray-39 Last edited by danielm1; 02-03-2008 at 03:14 PM.

02-03-2008, 08:24 PM	#20
Nike Look and Sound of Perfect Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 249	Great Thread! Never knew there was such a difference. I might go get children of men just because you said that. __________________ My DVD Collection

02-03-2008, 11:18 PM	#23
Bravestime Supporter of HiDef Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Aiken, SC Age: 53 Posts: 4,415	Yes, this is very good information. I would also hope it is part of a sticky. __________________ Life is Short, Watch a Movie

02-04-2008, 01:23 AM	#24
El Despairado HD DVD: Still the best! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: North Dakota Age: 32 Posts: 903	This is great information, but I still can't believe that it takes this level of explaination for people to understand why black bars are their friend??? Part of me wonders if even presented with this evidence people still won't whine. Now we'll probably get people going, "I wish they would just film everything in 1.85:1 or 1.77:1 from now on".... ugh. Anway, good thread Kamspy __________________ Consumers did not choose the winner of the format war, the movie studios did, and now consumers are stuck with the decision. Samsung HL-S6187W Yamaha RX-V2700 Toshiba HD-XA2 RF/LF-Polk Audio RTi8 Center-Polk Audio CSi3 SL/SR-Polk Audio RTi6 LFE-Polk Audio P505 300watt self amplified. Xbox 360 Administrator of Horns Up International hornsupinternational.freeforums.org

02-04-2008, 01:58 PM	#29
Semp1 Just Go Neutral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Brooklyn. NY Age: 28 Posts: 691	People should also understand that if you're TV does not over scan 185:1 also has small black bars and 178:1 and slightly below are the only Aspect ratios with out any black bars.... __________________ Living Room: Sony KDL52XBR6 Sony STR-DG910 (Unknown Replacement coming soon) Center Channel: Polk CS10 Front Towers: Polk TSI300 Rear Speakers: Polk TSI100 Sub Woofer: Sony SA-W3000 Apple TV PS3 Slim XBOX 360 Wii Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300HD Bed Room: Sony KDL40XBR2/3 Samsung BDP2500 Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300HD PS3 (60gb) XBOX 360 Blu-ray=260

02-03-2008, 11:00 PM	#22
blazed54 How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 28	great thread! but perhaps you should've used another scene?? haha i'm sure there are some people out there who would say, "why do i need to see that picture frame to enjoy the movie?" haha i know it's ridiculous but I guarantee some will say that.

02-04-2008, 03:16 AM	#25
Nikopol Uwe Boll's my hero Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Maelstrom Blu-rays: 14 Age: 4 Posts: 6,374	Great post, kamspy! Hope this will be a sticky.

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