Don't believe the hype

Superman · 01-20-2008, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Last week at CES, Comcast announced their “HD” video on demand download service over its future DOCSIS 3.0 that allows 4 minute downloads of entire HD movies. Attendees at MacWorld this week were told that disk-based HD formats like HD DVD and Blu-ray are essentially obsolete because you can simply download “HD” movies from your Apple TV 2.0 box on demand. Microsoft started offering HD downloads for the XBOX360 starting in late 2006. You can even watch “HD” videos from ABC right from the web. There are even YouTube competitors that offer user uploaded “HD” content. There’s just one minor little problem, it’s not HD.

As I’ve tried to educate my readers last year with my blog “Why HD movie downloads are a big lie“, these so-called HD movies use very low bit-rates compared to even standard definition DVDs let alone something like HD DVD or Blu-ray DVD. Raw uncompressed 1080p video at 60 frames per second is about 3000 mbps so even HD DVD’s 28 mbps needs to be compressed about 107 to 1 with the H.264 or VC-1 codec. By all reasonable standards this needs to be the minimum bit-rate for acceptable loss in quality on 1080p video.

Updated 4:30PM - Standard definition 480i DVD movies are typically 5 to 8 mbps (megabits per second) MPEG-2 whereas these so-called HD wannabes weigh in at a pathetic 1.5 to 4 mbps of 720p H.264. Apple’s new HD service is capable of 4 mbps which simply isn’t enough to be considered HD. XBOX360 downloads are 6.8 mbps 720p VC-1 so they’re semi-decent borderline HD. Marketing will push the nicer sounding “720p” aspect of the video but they don’t tell you it’s way too compressed to offer good video fidelity. Blu-ray has a maximum bit-rate of 40 mbps while HD DVD offers a maximum of 28 mbps. Over the air broadcasts can be up to 24 19.38 mbps.

Modern video compression codecs like H.264 or VC-1 can hide these compression artifact problems much better than MPEG-2 video compression but there’s only so much it can do. At best you might get away 50% more compression over older compression technology but 1.5 to 4 mbps H.264 will not be better than 8 mbps MPEG-2 under most video complexity requirements. The only time 4 mbps 720p will look better than 8 mbps 480i is when the video on the screen is almost entirely stationary or it’s a low-complexity video such as animation movies. Under most normal circumstances, the low bit-rate 720p so-called “HD” video will be inferior though many companies are betting that consumers won’t know any better.

So the bottom line is that so-called “HD” video from Microsoft’s XBOX360 HD download service and Apple’s new Apple TV service or any other web download service is simply not HD by any respectable definition. These companies cannot and should not use the “HD” name with video that is lower fidelity than standard DVD. As for Comcast, there’s not much detail on it but I highly doubt it’s more than 4 to 8 mbps even on DOCSIS 3.0 because its 160 mbps total capacity is divided between 50 to 400 customers. Only FiOS technology with its massive 620 mbps per 32-user capacity and possibly U-Verse (but slower than real time) has sufficient last-mile capacity to deliver true HD movie downloads at the quality of HD DVD and Blu-ray technology.

I’m not saying that you shouldn’t buy these services from Apple, or other services that offer low bit-rate 720p video downloads, but consumers must be aware of the fact that they’re slightly worse than a 1080p up-converted DVD. Microsoft’s XBOX service is border-line HD that is slightly better than DVD but nowhere near 1080i over-the-air HD broadcast quality.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=959

DO NOT WANT

eapleitez · 01-20-2008, 02:00 PM

It was never even a consideration for me. On demand is fine as a rental service (and I don't rent), but I'm not keen on having my library locked up in a hard drive.

sodrock · 01-20-2008, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eapleitez

It was never even a consideration for me. On demand is fine as a rental service (and I don't rent), but I'm not keen on having my library locked up in a hard drive.

Same feelings I have toward the Apple TV.

No thanks.

Dare · 01-20-2008, 02:46 PM

It was always known that HD downloads would weigh in at 2-3GB. If you've seen DivX downloads of movies and TV shows, that's about how big they are for 2 hours. Of course the bitrates have to be rock bottom low to get the file down to that size. But it's nice to see a blogger spell it out for people. Downloads are not for the quality minded, and with the bandwidth caps that telecom companies are trying to put on us, they never will be.

niennumb1 · 01-20-2008, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eapleitez

It was never even a consideration for me. On demand is fine as a rental service (and I don't rent), but I'm not keen on having my library locked up in a hard drive.

agreed on the hard drive statement. NEVER want my movies on a hdd.

tomes · 01-20-2008, 04:23 PM

Agreed, it's ok for occasional rental's (to watch in the family room, not my home theater room), but is for me no competition to HDM formats..

borromini · 01-20-2008, 04:36 PM

Classic case of misinforming the public regarding so-called HD downloads. Not to mention that US ISPs are horrible with real broadband service compared to places like Asia where you get 30mpbs download speed.

kjudge · 01-20-2008, 07:07 PM

As someone who has tried to keep a downloaded music collection I have to say that there is no chance I would ever try to do the same for a movie collection. Ive had lost albums, incorrectly labelled albums, Wrong artwork, poor quality downloads from obviously low bitrate masters. Id rather have an optical disc anytime.

sneakerz · 01-20-2008, 07:44 PM

I feel the same on HDD. I would rather have something physical to choose from my library rack.

Jimmy Smith · 01-20-2008, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eapleitez

It was never even a consideration for me. On demand is fine as a rental service (and I don't rent), but I'm not keen on having my library locked up in a hard drive.

Same goes for me. HD discs are the future. Downloads are just not viable.

Thomas Foolery · 01-21-2008, 02:52 AM

I like having something tangible. I will resist downloads as long as physical media is available.

Dr. Jones · 01-21-2008, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superman

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=959

DO NOT WANT

Only problem is you don't need HD-DVD Bitrates for 720p. 10-15 Mbps is more than fine for 720p. And you can get that without needing a compressionist to go over every frame to squeeze out those last few megabytes and bits.

I wonder if this guy has ever even watched a downloaded movie via Xbox 360. I bet he hasn't.

Dr. Jones · 01-21-2008, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjudge

As someone who has tried to keep a downloaded music collection I have to say that there is no chance I would ever try to do the same for a movie collection. Ive had lost albums, incorrectly labelled albums, Wrong artwork, poor quality downloads from obviously low bitrate masters. Id rather have an optical disc anytime.

#1: Rip your own CDs.

#2: Back up to Dual Layer DVD/spare external hard drive.

#3: Don't label your albums incorrectly.

#4: Fix the Artwork

#5: Don't buy MP3's with less than 196kbps.

#6: Boycott all DRM services. (Fine for rentals, but not for PURCHASES).

01-20-2008, 04:36 PM	#7
borromini HT Frontiersman Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Northern California Posts: 9,822	Classic case of misinforming the public regarding so-called HD downloads. Not to mention that US ISPs are horrible with real broadband service compared to places like Asia where you get 30mpbs download speed. __________________ "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

01-20-2008, 07:44 PM	#9
sneakerz HI DEF Rules Join Date: May 2007 Location: Detroit Age: 37 Posts: 56	I feel the same on HDD. I would rather have something physical to choose from my library rack. __________________ Living Room Sharp DT500 DLP Projector 96" 16 X 9 Carada Screen Toshiba HD-A2 HD DVD Player Pioneer CLD D505 LaserDisc Player Yamaha 6.1 RX SL100 Sound System DirecTV HR-20 HD DVR Psyclone Competition Grade HDMI Switch Bedrooms 2 Vizio VX37L 37" LCD 2 XBOX 360 w/HD DVD player Kenwood VR 2080 5.1 Eosone RSA 100 Speaker System HD DVD:60 Blu Ray: 0

01-21-2008, 02:52 AM	#11
Thomas Foolery HD Hmmmmm Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Mooresville, NC Age: 38 Posts: 136	I like having something tangible. I will resist downloads as long as physical media is available. __________________ Mitsubishi WS-48515 JVC RXD-412 Toshiba HD-A1 Xbox 360 Premium Xbox HD DVD Add on Sony PS3 60 GB Nintendo Wii Westinghouse LTV-32w3 Toshiba HD-A2 ($98.97 from Wal-Mart) 91 hd dvd movies 67 Blu-ray movies

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01-20-2008, 02:00 PM	#2
eapleitez High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 389	It was never even a consideration for me. On demand is fine as a rental service (and I don't rent), but I'm not keen on having my library locked up in a hard drive. __________________ HD DVD: 159 BD: 59 JVC HD-56FN97 Toshiba HD-A2 Sony PS3 80GB Nintendo Wii Sega Dreamcast Radiient Calypso 5.0 speakers BIC HT-63 rear surrounds BIC H-100 Denon AVR-888 Harmony One remote

01-20-2008, 02:46 PM	#4
Dare I moon you. Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Phoenix, Arizona Posts: 4,436	It was always known that HD downloads would weigh in at 2-3GB. If you've seen DivX downloads of movies and TV shows, that's about how big they are for 2 hours. Of course the bitrates have to be rock bottom low to get the file down to that size. But it's nice to see a blogger spell it out for people. Downloads are not for the quality minded, and with the bandwidth caps that telecom companies are trying to put on us, they never will be. __________________ LG GGC-H20L Super Multi Blue Blu-ray & HD DVD ROM Drive 58 31

01-20-2008, 04:23 PM	#6
tomes High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,416	Agreed, it's ok for occasional rental's (to watch in the family room, not my home theater room), but is for me no competition to HDM formats.. __________________ The War is OVER!!!!!

01-20-2008, 07:07 PM	#8
kjudge High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 33	As someone who has tried to keep a downloaded music collection I have to say that there is no chance I would ever try to do the same for a movie collection. Ive had lost albums, incorrectly labelled albums, Wrong artwork, poor quality downloads from obviously low bitrate masters. Id rather have an optical disc anytime.