Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives ...

niennumb1 · 01-14-2008, 02:51 PM

People talk as though now that HDDVD has the lower hand in the battle at current that they're just going to pull Warner titles period. There's hundreds and hundreds of movies available and nothing is done for yet.

**PFC5** · 01-14-2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomes

But why would Universal or Paramount bother selling a disc that costs more to produce, plus eliminate any chance of future Hidef pricing (profit), in order to save HDDVD?

If Toshiba pays for one or two titles and Uni/Para accepts not making much money on HD, then BDA will probably work with its own studios to do the exact same thing to even it out. (They can just as easily put in a bare bones single layer blu-ray disc with the dvd. Production cost will most likely be very similar to what a combo disc would cost HDDVD). This would be a preferred approach to me, rather than combo, for three reasons (I think one of these could be fixed by HDDVD with Twin or something):
a) kids can scratch up the dvd and I don't care. They don't get to touch my BD disc.
b) no confusion about how to get the disc to work in a player. Both discs will have artwork on the top of the disc with clear labeling
c) I like to have labeling on the discs (for some weird reason

)

The studios will NOT do this because they would worry that it would cannibalize SD DVD sales which IS the largest revunue/profit area for EVERY studio still. I think many insiders have said this at some point. That is highly unlikely to EVER happen until POSSIBLY when a HD movie starts to sell about 75% of the market and will assuredly replace SD DVD.

BTW, I thought BD hardcoating made worrying about scratches a thing of the past.

I know you know it can still happen so I am just playing with you.

tomes · 01-14-2008, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

The studios will NOT do this because they would worry that it would cannibalize SD DVD sales which IS the largest revunue/profit area for EVERY studio still. I think many insiders have said this at some point. That is highly unlikely to EVER happen until POSSIBLY when a HD movie starts to sell about 75% of the market and will assuredly replace SD DVD.

BTW, I thought BD hardcoating made worrying about scratches a thing of the past.

I know you know it can still happen so I am just playing with you.

I take it you mean that Uni/Para wouldn't do it either in form of combodiscs - if so, I completely agree. Giving out the HD version for the price of the DVD version sounds to me like utopia. (If this is not what you meant, let me clarify that for my BD suggestion, every single dvd of a certain title, could have the BD disc version included as a bonus, to play the numbers game. I don't think it would happen..)

Hehe, I didn't think about the no-scratch coating

I'm sure my kids can still find a way to break it though, so better they have a separate disc.

**PFC5** · 01-14-2008, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard

Go ahead and show me a quote from Warner that states that. The quote from months ago that Warner decided that consumers only wanted one format and that Warner was evaluating what to do as a result was often posted here if you haven't seen that. I referred to it and stated I was certain that Warner would end neutrality, but I didn't know which way, many months ago. After that, all I ever saw from Warner was that the company was currently continuing to support both formats, not that it would last forever. Warner also decided to abandon the TotalHD format, another announcement that neutrality wasn't the plan for the future.

As far as all of your statements about HD DVD being the format with the best chance, I will just refer you to 55 straight weeks of Blu-ray software selling better in the US and a huge advantage to Blu-ray in hardware and software sold worldwide to refute that claim.

Chris

There is the link Chris

and the reference to 5-10 years:

Quote:

Following several days of breathless speculation from fans and industry insiders alike, Warner is now breaking its silence on the matter, saying that despite Silverberg's comments the studio has no plans to shift its high-def strategy.
Speaking to High-Def Digest, Jim Noonan, SVP of Strategic Promotion and Communication for Warner Home Entertainment Group said, "I can tell you that Warner's position has not changed, and I know that Dan did not intend to suggest that wasn't the case. We support both formats and we have made no decision to alter that policy, nor are there any such announcements coming, or being planned."
As for speculation that the studio is waiting for Q4 sales results before making an announcement of format exclusivity -- perhaps even as soon as this January's CES in Las Vegas -- Noonan shot down any such short-term scenarios.
"Like any major company, we are always reviewing our strategies in every aspect of our business, it is what smart companies do. I can't say what may happen five, ten years down the line. But right now, Warner Bros. has made no decision to change course. We are still onboard with both formats, and will continue [with a strong line-up of new releases and catalog titles], just as we have in the past in supporting HD DVD and Blu-ray."

Sure they MAY HAVE just worded it just enough to leave the possibility of covering themselves in a LEGAL SENSE, but the average consumer WOULD think they are going to continue to support both for a very long time from that statement.

Warner DID LIE, because I KNOW they knew they WERE going to decide something from what an insider told me in advance and you KNOW that I got the heads up on it when I made that post at 5am on the morning they made their decision.

Warner KNEW they were going to make a change when he stated this. We all know it and there is no reason to deny it. They did lie but it is what it is. Heck, I started to question my source because they were saying so strong that they were not changing anytime soon, as the above post shows. Warner said this at the start of the holiday buying season so they KNEW they would be trying to kill one of the formats. They just didn't know which one, and that is the opposite of what they were publicly stating. They should have kept their mouth shut if they didn't want the backlash they are getting now. Then they could have done whatever they wanted like Paramount did.

jwebb1970 · 01-14-2008, 03:19 PM

A pre-XMAS announcement would have cut into those "red' BLADE RUNNER, HP, OCEANS, etc. titles that sold fairly to very well due in part to WB's "unwavering" neutrality.

Put holiday sales over customer satisfaction? Like Mr Noonan said, "....it is what smart companies do..."

**PFC5** · 01-14-2008, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomes

I take it you mean that Uni/Para wouldn't do it either in form of combodiscs - if so, I completely agree. Giving out the HD version for the price of the DVD version sounds to me like utopia. (If this is not what you meant, let me clarify that for my BD suggestion, every single dvd of a certain title, could have the BD disc version included as a bonus, to play the numbers game. I don't think it would happen..)

Hehe, I didn't think about the no-scratch coating

I'm sure my kids can still find a way to break it though, so better they have a separate disc.

They may not do this without Toshiba footing the bill most likely. In which case they would have nothing to lose would they?

My point is that NO STUDIO will include a SEPARATE SD DVD disc in with a HD disc unless SD DVD is down to under 25% market share. None of them will give away their largest revenue source (even bigger than the theater revenue by a multiple). That just wouldn't happen.

Why would a studio say NO to Toshiba footing all the additional mfg cost & marketing of a combo/TWIN disc? It would NOT cost them a lost sale of SD DVD, and it would not cost them for the HD disc sale either. It would make the studio look like they cared for the consumer, and could earn PR mileage at no cost to them at all.

It sounds like a win/win for the studios, but I do not know if Toshiba WOULD actually do this. They have not made the smartest moves in a timely fashion so far IMO. That wasn't the point though.

My point was that the studios would NOT cannibalize their largest revenue/profit source by including a SEPARATE SD DVD with a BD disc for the current price of the BD movie. That's all.

tomes · 01-14-2008, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

They may not do this without Toshiba footing the bill most likely. In which case they would have nothing to lose would they?

My point is that NO STUDIO will include a SEPARATE SD DVD disc in with a HD disc unless SD DVD is down to under 25% market share. None of them will give away their largest revenue source (even bigger than the theater revenue by a multiple). That just wouldn't happen.

Why would a studio say NO to Toshiba footing all the additional mfg cost & marketing of a combo/TWIN disc? It would NOT cost them a lost sale of SD DVD, and it would not cost them for the HD disc sale either. It would make the studio look like they cared for the consumer, and could earn PR mileage at no cost to them at all.

It sounds like a win/win for the studios, but I do not know if Toshiba WOULD actually do this. They have not made the smartest moves in a timely fashion so far IMO. That wasn't the point though.

My point was that the studios would NOT cannibalize their largest revenue/profit source by including a SEPARATE SD DVD with a BD disc for the current price of the BD movie. That's all.

???? Sorry, I don't see the difference at all. I thought the scenario was:

a) Some studio putting out a title on HDDVD combo ONLY. (I.e they will not get any revenue on sale of dvd's at all, but will sell say 10 million HDDVD combo discs.

b) Some studio putting out a title that includes a Blu-Ray disc as well. (I.e they will not get any revenue on sale of other dvds, but will sell 10 million DVD's (and blu-ray discs since they are bundled).

In either case, presuming both scenarios charge the normal dvd price, they would cannibalize the money they could have made on hi-def versions, not vice versa.

The one downside to b) though, which is opposite of what you are saying is that if my friend buys the dvd but does not own blu-ray, and he decides to give that to me, they would lose a sale, since I may be ok with just owning the blu-ray version, not the dvd version.

Maybe we are just talking past each other, or it is Monday, and I tend to be retarded at the beginning of the week

Changeling · 01-14-2008, 03:56 PM

Probably the last one.

I'm not sure it'll make a difference. I doubt it. Toshiba's just going to lose more money on the deal and become even more desperate. It's a cycle that'll burn them alive if they don't cut their losses.

There is no dual format future to be had. One or the other. Not both. And all this dancing is just bad for HDM adoption as a whole.

Qbfinest83 · 01-14-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomes

???? Sorry, I don't see the difference at all. I thought the scenario was:

a) Some studio putting out a title on HDDVD combo ONLY. (I.e they will not get any revenue on sale of dvd's at all, but will sell say 10 million HDDVD combo discs.

b) Some studio putting out a title that includes a Blu-Ray disc as well. (I.e they will not get any revenue on sale of other dvds, but will sell 10 million DVD's (and blu-ray discs since they are bundled).

In either case, presuming both scenarios charge the normal dvd price, they would cannibalize the money they could have made on hi-def versions, not vice versa.

The one downside to b) though, which is opposite of what you are saying is that if my friend buys the dvd but does not own blu-ray, and he decides to give that to me, they would lose a sale, since I may be ok with just owning the blu-ray version, not the dvd version.

Maybe we are just talking past each other, or it is Monday, and I tend to be retarded at the beginning of the week

I think what he means (and correct me if I am wrong PFC5) is that according to what you described above it would cost more because you would have to produce BD and DVD (that cant be produce on the same line) vs Combo/Twin only (stoping all DVD production and saving money on DVD)

Also in your scenario there would be a total of 10million combo/twin disc from HD camp vs 20 million (10mil blu and 10mil DVD) from BD camp. At that point only one of two things will happen either people start to sell bluray disc or DVD disc online or give a copy to a friend which will mean losing more money just like you talked about in the last paragraph

bigboar · 01-14-2008, 04:05 PM

that may end up being so, but Toshiba has a long way(and I mean along way)to go before they are even close to loosing what Sony has so far.... I think Toshiba is either going to try and make hd dvd the winner in the long run(which is very doubtful) or they are going to try and make sure blu-ray dies and dvd continues its complete domination(which is highly likely). Which in turn means Toshiba still wins with all the royalies from dvd...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Changeling

Probably the last one.

I'm not sure it'll make a difference. I doubt it. Toshiba's just going to lose more money on the deal and become even more desperate. It's a cycle that'll burn them alive if they don't cut their losses.

There is no dual format future to be had. One or the other. Not both. And all this dancing is just bad for HDM adoption as a whole.

Stew4HD · 01-14-2008, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Changeling

Probably the last one.

I'm not sure it'll make a difference. I doubt it. Toshiba's just going to lose more money on the deal and become even more desperate. It's a cycle that'll burn them alive if they don't cut their losses.

There is no dual format future to be had. One or the other. Not both. And all this dancing is just bad for HDM adoption as a whole.

Care to explain your postion? Oh, you are one of those that think HD DVD is holding BD back from world domination? Confusing customers?

**PFC5** · 01-14-2008, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomes

???? Sorry, I don't see the difference at all. I thought the scenario was:

a) Some studio putting out a title on HDDVD combo ONLY. (I.e they will not get any revenue on sale of dvd's at all, but will sell say 10 million HDDVD combo discs.

b) Some studio putting out a title that includes a Blu-Ray disc as well. (I.e they will not get any revenue on sale of other dvds, but will sell 10 million DVD's (and blu-ray discs since they are bundled).

In either case, presuming both scenarios charge the normal dvd price, they would cannibalize the money they could have made on hi-def versions, not vice versa.

The one downside to b) though, which is opposite of what you are saying is that if my friend buys the dvd but does not own blu-ray, and he decides to give that to me, they would lose a sale, since I may be ok with just owning the blu-ray version, not the dvd version.

Maybe we are just talking past each other, or it is Monday, and I tend to be retarded at the beginning of the week

THIS is what I am referring to, but was thinking maybe YOU buy the movie for the BD version and give (or sell for cheap in which case the studio loses out on the SD DVD sale to him) the SD version away. Right now SD DVD IS 97%+ of the whole home video market and the studios make more revenue AND profit on SD DVD than they do in any other part of their business. No way they will cannibalize that market.

Sure the studios would lose the future POTENTIAL double dip of a current SD DVD buying going out and buying a HD version later, but they would get PR mileage with no cost IF (and this is a big IF) Toshiba foot the additional cost and possibly the marketing costs of such a move.

It is already pretty well established that most people who already own the SD DVD version of a title will not go out and re-buy it for the HD version. Just look at the catalog sales figures to see this.

I think the studios had illusions of grandeur that they would get people to replace all SD versions with HD versions BEFORE the formats were already released, but I think they know better now.

crazyal · 01-14-2008, 04:14 PM

I really doubt you'll ever see two copies of a movie packaged together. When you buy a movie you are buying the rights to watch that one movie. Not getting into the fair use stuff but if you make a back up copy you can't use it at the same time as you are using the original. If they include both BD and SD together they are now giving you the right to watch both at once. That's giving up control, something they don't like to do.

The only options would be a combo with SD on one side and BD on the other, something they've tried a couple of times and can't get to work at a reasonable price. Or to try to do a twin like HD DVD has done. But to do a twin it means the laser for the SD track (deeper) has to pass through the bd track. For the most part not possible.

This is why for quite some time now HD DVD supporters have said BD didn't have an upper hand and if played right HD DVD could have done real damage. IMO the combo disc cost too much to produce. The Twin would have been the way to go but I don't see it being ready soon enough.

Dare · 01-14-2008, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitachi65SWX20B

you could say that, but the fact that it DOES play HD DVD's and it something that NOT one other up converter can do, Is pretty compelling if you ask me, Its more for your money. An up converter that plays DVD's at 480/720 and 1080 plus play true HD DVD's that hooks up to the internet. NOT one other up converter can offer anything close to that, and the the toshiba HD DVD, DVD upconverter is cheaper then the other's. It sounds pretty compelling now dont it. Like I said before, the ps3's trojan horse would be just as worthless then because it has a Glairing Hole in studio support still, The way its starting to look, That hole isn't about to be filled anytime soon.

That's fabulous, except that if things continue, there will be no studios supporting HD-DVD. There will be no HD-DVDs to play. What is the compelling reason to buy a player for a format that has no studio support? Get by that one and we can talk.

tomes · 01-14-2008, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

THIS is what I am referring to, but was thinking maybe YOU buy the movie for the BD version and give (or sell for cheap in which case the studio loses out on the SD DVD sale to him) the SD version away. Right now SD DVD IS 97%+ of the whole home video market and the studios make more revenue AND profit on SD DVD than they do in any other part of their business. No way they will cannibalize that market.

Sure the studios would lose the future POTENTIAL double dip of a current SD DVD buying going out and buying a HD version later, but they would get PR mileage with no cost IF (and this is a big IF) Toshiba foot the additional cost and possibly the marketing costs of such a move.

It is already pretty well established that most people who already own the SD DVD version of a title will not go out and re-buy it for the HD version. Just look at the catalog sales figures to see this.

I think the studios had illusions of grandeur that they would get people to replace all SD versions with HD versions BEFORE the formats were already released, but I think they know better now.

Good point (one can get stuck looking at something in one way..), though I guess it wouldn't cannibalize the market much, since only 3% or so that buy it for the Blu-Ray would have the potential of giving the dvd to a friend.

Qbfinest, my assumption would be that BDA and HDDVD consortium would pay similar incentives to cover costs, so even if it is more expensive to bundle a dvd+single layer Blu-Ray vs a combo hddvd (minimal at most in my opinion), it would be the format consortium taking the hit, so it would be comparable. Come to think of it, they could bake in a 3% anticipated loss of dvd sales too for the Blu-Ray scenario!!

Back to my original point though - other than possibly for a single occurence marketing purpose (and it would be expensive for Toshiba and/or Sony in either case....) I don't see this happening.

01-14-2008, 02:51 PM	#151
niennumb1 HD For life! Join Date: Nov 2007 Age: 31 Posts: 648	People talk as though now that HDDVD has the lower hand in the battle at current that they're just going to pull Warner titles period. There's hundreds and hundreds of movies available and nothing is done for yet. __________________ HD-DVD MOVIES: Lost count BLU-RAY MOVIES: Lost count

01-14-2008, 03:19 PM	#155
jwebb1970 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 368	A pre-XMAS announcement would have cut into those "red' BLADE RUNNER, HP, OCEANS, etc. titles that sold fairly to very well due in part to WB's "unwavering" neutrality. Put holiday sales over customer satisfaction? Like Mr Noonan said, "....it is what smart companies do..." __________________ The Internet is a vast communications tool used the world over where people come together to bitch about movies & share pornography with one another.

01-14-2008, 03:56 PM	#158
Changeling High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 163	Just a desparation fire sale. Probably the last one. I'm not sure it'll make a difference. I doubt it. Toshiba's just going to lose more money on the deal and become even more desperate. It's a cycle that'll burn them alive if they don't cut their losses. There is no dual format future to be had. One or the other. Not both. And all this dancing is just bad for HDM adoption as a whole.

01-14-2008, 04:14 PM	#163
crazyal Smarter than the ave bear Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,312	I really doubt you'll ever see two copies of a movie packaged together. When you buy a movie you are buying the rights to watch that one movie. Not getting into the fair use stuff but if you make a back up copy you can't use it at the same time as you are using the original. If they include both BD and SD together they are now giving you the right to watch both at once. That's giving up control, something they don't like to do. The only options would be a combo with SD on one side and BD on the other, something they've tried a couple of times and can't get to work at a reasonable price. Or to try to do a twin like HD DVD has done. But to do a twin it means the laser for the SD track (deeper) has to pass through the bd track. For the most part not possible. This is why for quite some time now HD DVD supporters have said BD didn't have an upper hand and if played right HD DVD could have done real damage. IMO the combo disc cost too much to produce. The Twin would have been the way to go but I don't see it being ready soon enough. __________________ Please don't feed the Unicorns

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