Why I think Blu Ray will win the Format War

venomxr8 · 10-14-2007, 08:51 AM

I am posting this thread today to voice my opinion on the hi def format “war” going on between Blu Ray and HD DVD and why I think that Blu Ray will be the eventual winner. There has been a lot of childish behaviour from both sides and I for one am sick of it, therefore I feel I must state my opinion in a sensible and adult manner.

Firstly I’d like to state that the following opinions are my own and every one of you have the right to agree or disagree with my views, that’s what’s so great about living in today’s world.

Now to start my argument lets look at the two discs themselves:

Blu-ray
Storage capacity 25GB (single-layer)
50GB (dual-layer)
Laser wavelength 405nm (blue laser)
Numerical aperture (NA) 0.85
Disc diameter 120mm
Disc thickness 1.2mm
Protection layer 0.1mm
Hard coating Yes
Track pitch 0.32µm
Data transfer rate data 36.0Mbps (1x)
Data transfer rate (video/audio) 54.0Mbps (1.5x)
Video resolution (max) 1920×1080 (1080p)
Video bit rate (max) 40.0Mbps
Video codecs MPEG-2
MPEG-4 AVC
SMPTE VC-1
Audio codecs Linear PCM
Dolby Digital
Dolby Digital Plus
Dolby TrueHD
DTS Digital Surround
DTS-HD
Interactivity BD-J

HD DVD
Storage capacity 15GB (single-layer)
30GB (dual-layer)
Laser wavelength 405nm (blue laser)
Numerical aperture (NA) 0.65
Disc diameter 120mm
Disc thickness 1.2mm
Protection layer 0.6mm
Hard coating No
Track pitch 0.40µm
Data transfer rate data 36.55Mbps (1x)
Data transfer rate (video/audio) 36.55Mbps (1.5x)
Video resolution (max) 1920×1080 (1080p)
Video bit rate (max) 28.0Mbps
Video codecs MPEG-2
MPEG-4 AVC
SMPTE VC-1
Audio codecs Linear PCM
Dolby Digital
Dolby Digital Plus
Dolby TrueHD
DTS Digital Surround
DTS-HD
Interactivity HDi

As you can see Blu Ray Discs can hold more storage capacity and can transfer video/audio data at a higher rate then HD DVD resulting in the ability for studio’s to release their movies on Blu Ray with higher quality video and audio than the HD-DVD format. Some examples of HD DVD’s storage capacity and bitrates hampering the format can be seen in the upcoming releases of Transformers and Shrek 3. These two movies which are going to be the two biggest on HD DVD for some time don’t feature lossless (or Hi Def) audio. Now when I purchase a so called “hi def” movie, I as a consumer expect to get what I spent my hard earned dollars for, a “hi def” movie, as in hi definition video AND AUDIO and HD DVD cannot provide it. Now you may have heard reports that the HD DVD camp has developed a 51 GB disc that may “solve” this problem but unfortunately even these discs WILL NOT improve the video/audio transfer rate and also there are reports that they won’t work on a first gen HD DVD player so therefore are not worth factoring into the equation. On the other side, Hitachi has in development, a 100 GB Blu Ray disc that has been reported to only need a firmware update to be compatible in current blu ray players. Storage space also becomes a factor for the home video enthusiast; with new Blu Ray PC Burners now available (and with more on the way) consumers can create their own HD movies in the comfort of home.

My next point is in regards to price. HD DVD supporters continue to bring this up as one of the main reasons to support their format. Basically the cheapest stand alone HD DVD player currently can only output in 1080i, while that’s good compared to standard DVD, it just isn’t full HD (1080p). With the prices of Blu Ray players falling and the newly announced 40 GB PS3 soon to hit the market the price gap is shortening. Another point to remember is that the price of movies are generally a few dollars less on Blu Ray than on HD DVD, so think of the player as your car, you only by one every few years whereas the movies are the fuel that runs your car, now we all buy fuel on a regular basis and its nice to get it at a cheaper price than the guy next door. Also take into consideration your own personal setup at home, you spent big dollars on your HDTV and your sound system, surely it seems reasonable that your new next gen movie player is priced relative to your setup. To use the car analogy again, you wouldn’t put a Toyota engine in a Ferrari body.

My third point of my argument is all about support. Firstly studio support, yes the Paramount/DreamWorks shift to support HD DVD exclusively did hurt Blu Ray but the majority of studios still support Blu, with only Warner the one major neutral studio supporting both. However there are rumblings that Universal (a HD DVD only studio) will become neutral sometime in 2008. As it stands the studio support is as follows:

Blu Ray: Disney, Fox, Warner, Sony, Lionsgate and MGM
HD DVD: Universal, DreamWorks, Paramount and Warner

Also in regards to support, Blu Ray doesn’t just have the edge in movie studio support, it also has the edge in hardware support, Blu-ray is currently supported by more than 180 of the world's leading consumer electronics, personal computer, recording media, video game and music companies which means there are a lot of models of blu ray players for the consumers to choose from, with company’s such as Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Denon, Pioneer, Philips, and Sharp all developing Blu Ray players while HD DVD only has Toshiba (and Toshiba derived) players and the Xbox 360 add on drive. Consumer electronics are all about choice but HD DVD doesn’t offer that. It’s more like a monopoly.

I feel I also must touch on one of the arguments that HD DVD supporters bring up again and again and that is the fact that Blu Ray specs are not “finalized” Basically at the moment, Blu Ray players do not have the ability YET to display picture in picture or allow web based content whereas HD DVD can. My response to this is that it is coming and it looks like it will be available with a simple firmware update. Also it seems that consumers don’t really hold pip high in their HD wants. A good example of this is the movie 300 which had pip on the HD DVD release but not on Blu Ray yet the Blu Ray copy out sold the HD DVD version 2 to 1. Also, if I was a HD DVD fan I would be pretty upset that my chosen format was losing to an UNFINISHED format, god help HD DVD when Blu Ray’s specs are finalized.

My last point (and I’m sorry if my rant has gone on for so long but these things need to be said) is in regards to the sales ratio of Blu Ray to HD DVD. Basically HD DVD is dead everywhere except in the United States. In Asia the ratio is around 96/04 in favor of Blu Ray, in Europe there was a recent report of a 4 to 1 ratio in favor of Blu and Australia is also around the 90/10 in favor of Blu. Only in the United States to the numbers get a little closer with Blu Ray winning every week in sales this year (see Nielsen/VideoScan weekly sales numbers) by around 65/35. So if the world has chosen Blu it’s only a matter of time before Blu Ray becomes the new HD Format Standard. You may not see it in your own backyards but you got to look at the big picture (I know the movie studios sure do) And with Huge releases coming up this holidays for Blu Ray (such as the Spiderman Trilogy, Pirates 3, Ratatouille and Cars to name a few) the sales ratio is just going to grow.

Anyway, that’s my 2 cents, I can confidently say that Blu Ray is the way to go and I hope it’s helped shed some light to those out there who are unsure of which way to go this generation. After all, it’s the MOVIES that count and not the format.

brian451 · 10-14-2007, 09:06 AM

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brian451 · 10-14-2007, 09:10 AM

you're biggest argument about better picture and sound quality is no more legitimate than an argument that sony produces hdtvs produce better picture and sound than a westinghouse or a phillips...yes of course sony hdtvs are better, but does that mean that westinghouse or phillips are useless and wont survive. the difference is so incredibly tiny that to me it means absolutely nothing...even if everyone even had the best possible hdtv to view the discs on.

picture quality is just as meaningless as total disc sales right now. hardware sales is the biggest thing that is going to win over studios and price is the biggest thing that is going to win over consumers...period. you just so conveniently failed to mention that hd-dvd is completely obliterating bluray in standalone sales...and yes a sht load of ps3 help in the short term but mean nothing in the longterm. 95% of people that buy a player in the next ten years are not going to buy a ps3 to watch a disc...that's asinine to argue they would...they are going to buy a standalone playere. if this format isnt decided by spring, neither format will die

**bruceames** · 10-14-2007, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venomxr8

After all, it’s the MOVIES that count and not the format.

Paramount didn't think so. They felt Blu-ray as a format was too expensive to use compared to HD DVD. Having a major studio replicate on a new format for over a year and then ditch it due to cost and performance (like not being ready for prime time) issues leaves a black mark on the format and informed consumers will wonder 'who's next?' (which studio is going to abandon Blu-ray next?). Therefore, Blu-ray has become the riskier of the formats and its future is more uncertain.

On the other hand, HD DVD has been ready from day 1 and there players are far less expensive. The A2, for example, can be found for under $200 now. It's too bad Blu-ray is going to arrive late to the 'party' and will end up being the third wheel, relegated to niche status, while DVD and HD DVD being the dominate formats, with HD DVD slowly taking over for DVD.

Twin format disc, with DVD and HD DVD on the same side, will be a big hit with consumers and will allow a smooth transition between old format and new. Blu-ray does not offer this flexibility.

In the end, all the studios will use HD DVD because they will have the dominate ST player base and Blu-ray exclusive studio will no longer be able to ignore this as they grow over 2 million strong (probably by the end of next year)

BiggNewt · 10-14-2007, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian451

95% of people that buy a player in the next ten years are not going to buy a ps3 to watch a disc...that's asinine to argue they would...they are going to buy a standalone playere. if this format isnt decided by spring, neither format will die

Well I'll argue that, and will be assinine

I could understand if the PS3 wasn't a good BD player, or wasn't marketed as one. But it is a good, or great BD player and is marketed as such. I think people put too much stock into believing people care if it's a standalone or a "entertainment device". As long as it does it's purpose, does it well, people will buy it, and hell, there kids might have something to play on a downtime from movies.

brian451 · 10-14-2007, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiggNewt

Well I'll argue that, and will be assinine

I could understand if the PS3 wasn't a good BD player, or wasn't marketed as one. But it is a good, or great BD player and is marketed as such. I think people put too much stock into believing people care if it's a standalone or a "entertainment device". As long as it does it's purpose, does it well, people will buy it, and hell, there kids might have something to play on a downtime from movies.

well think of how many people you know that watch movies that dont play video games. and think about how many people you know that have multiple players. think about how many dvd players being used in the business world, in offices where dvds need to be played, in sales centers. how could you think for a second that even if bluray wins outright and ps3 explodes in the coming years that all but a tiny % of people will buy a ps3 to play a disc...do you think it's 10%, 20%, 50%?

BiggNewt · 10-14-2007, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian451

well think of how many people you know that watch movies that dont play video games. and think about how many people you know that have multiple players. think about how many dvd players being used in the business world, in offices where dvds need to be played, in sales centers. how could you think for a second that even if bluray wins outright and ps3 explodes in the coming years that all but a tiny % of people will buy a ps3 to play a disc...do you think it's 10%, 20%, 50%?

PS2 didn't do too bad as a DVD player. DVD was still a very young format, and people bought a PS2 and used the player.

HD VHS · 10-14-2007, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruceames

Paramount didn't think so. They felt Blu-ray as a format was too expensive to use compared to HD DVD. Having a major studio replicate on a new format for over a year and then ditch it due to cost and performance (like not being ready for prime time) issues leaves a black mark on the format and informed consumers will wonder 'who's next?' (which studio is going to abandon Blu-ray next?). Therefore, Blu-ray has become the riskier of the formats and its future is more uncertain.

On the other hand, HD DVD has been ready from day 1 and there players are far less expensive. The A2, for example, can be found for under $200 now. It's too bad Blu-ray is going to arrive late to the 'party' and will end up being the third wheel, relegated to niche status, while DVD and HD DVD being the dominate formats, with HD DVD slowly taking over for DVD.

Twin format disc, with DVD and HD DVD on the same side, will be a big hit with consumers and will allow a smooth transition between old format and new. Blu-ray does not offer this flexibility.

In the end, all the studios will use HD DVD because they will have the dominate ST player base and Blu-ray exclusive studio will no longer be able to ignore this as they grow over 2 million strong (probably by the end of next year)

Bingo.

ClashFan · 10-14-2007, 11:25 AM

Actually, I find that 300's sales only being 2-1 for BR is very good news for HD DVD. Given all the PS3's out there (reportedly 2 million) and the nice demographic similarity b/t PS3ers and 300 fans (young males), I thought that 300 BR sales would be 3 or 4 to 1 over HD DVD. Yet, HD DVD hangs in there at only 2-1. I'll bet Planet Earth sales are a lot closet than that.

Both sides throw around stats, but if you look at raw players, there's no questions that BR must have a 4-1 or so player advantage in the US. Yet, movies sales run 1.5 to 1 or 2 to 1. So, HD DVD player owners buy more titles per player bought. The PS3 alone cannot "win" this war. And, who knows how much profit/loss these # represent?

I started out middle of last year completely format neutral, but curiously reading up on the format "war." After all my reading, I decided to make the plunge to HD DVD in October, 2007. I got a refurb A1 at that time for $322. It was in my price point (under $400...Blu-ray was nowhere to be seen, here). It has the dual video streams (I love "bonus" features for home theater) and internet support built right in! Plus, great picture and sound.

I still find the whole "bigger is better" argument completely overly simple and, really, superflous. 50 gig vs. 30 gig. 99.9% of people could not care less. And, I'm one of them. We could argue MPEG vs. AVC, VC, STD, whatever.. yield rates, replication costs, etc. etc. I simply say, put out "2 Disc Special Editions" on HD DVD. Then, you've got 60 gigs vs. 50 gigs for the very few titles necessary. 50 is more than 30. But... 2 is more than 1! Neither of those slogans takes the full story into account.

I figured I'd buy 10, 12, 15 or so titles that I really really wanted (like Batman Begins), and then just rent others via Netflix until the format war sorted itself out. Even if BR prevailed in 2007, I'd still use my A1 for DVD upconverting, great CD sound, and the few HD DVD titles I actually owned.

However, after starting 2007 very strongly, BR stumbled (PS3 did not land a knockout blow to HD DVD....far from it). BR still has not got its 1.1 spec or internet interactivity ready.

Sigh. So, I found myself buying more and more HD DVD titles and not adding BR support, as I thought I might.

I just bought a second HD DVD player, the XA2, to the be centerpiece of my home theater. When/if I get a BR player in 2008, it will only be to buy BR exclusive titles.

I'm now up to 65 HD DVD titles, and will buy many more in the weeks and months to come.

It IS about the movies. Transformers, Shrek the Third, Star Trek, The Jack Ryan Collection, Battlestar Galactica, Heroes. etc.

To each his own, and there are some BR titles I'd like to have, but right now HD DVD has far more bang for the buck.

cbcdesign · 10-14-2007, 11:55 AM

One of the biggest flaws with Blu-ray is the fact that it requires brand new pressing plants to manufacture the disks whereas HD DVD can be made in existing DVD manufacturing facilities once the equipment has been modified.

Like it or not, HD has to survive alongside DVD for the forseable future and that means manufacturing facilities need to be able to press both HD DVD and DVD disks to turn a profit until HD disks are sold in higher numbers.

It's so much easier and cheaper to produce HD DVD that all blu-ray can do is hinder the rate at which HD DVD can replace DVD. I don't see any possibility of Blu-ray becoming the "standard" under these circumstances. Blu-ray need consumers to abandon DVD and move exclusively to their new format and that is not going to happen any time soon.

Sony are the only company investing in these new expensive blu-ray installations so far and we are already seeing delay after delay as they struggle to produce reliable disks and they invented the format!

Studios will become increasingly frustrated with the problems that the blu-ray manufacturing process exhibits and it will only take one or two more neutral studios to go HD DVD exclusive to cripple Blu-ray entirely.

I appreciate your thoughts but studios couldn't care less about bit rates and capacity. What they care about is profit just like every other business and they can make a lot more money with HD DVD than they can with blu-ray.

I don't know who will win but I honestly don't believe things are going well for blu-ray and I will be very surprised if they can.

crazyal · 10-14-2007, 02:24 PM

You're right, this is just your opinion. Most (if not all) of your arguments really don't translate into an improvement in the real world over HD DVD.

IMO disc capacity favors HD DVD. By only having two sizes to choose from it forces studios to choose between the savings of single layer or the more expensive DL. HD DVD offers 15gb, 17gb, 30gb, 34gb, 15gb + 4.7gb DVD, and soon will offer 51gb and is working towards 34gb+4.7gb dvd and 17gb+9.4gb dvd. So size favors HD DVD.

Your trying to blame HD DVD for movies (Transformers and Shrek
) not using lossless audio codecs would be like blaming Ferrari because I decided to replace the tires on it with recaps. Toshiba made the lossless codecs avalible, not their fault the studio didn't use them.

1080i argument also favors HD DVD. How many HDTVs don't support 1080p? Why force them to pay for something they can't use? Besides every HDTV can upscale 1080i to 1080p just fine since all OTA, cable, and sat only comes this way. This allows the user to decide if he would like to spend the extra money or not.

The new profiles are the reason I have not bought a BD player yet. It's hardly a simple FW update should fix the PS3 but clearly will not fix all the SA players sold to date. If BD never said they were coming it would be different and I may never use them but I want them. Just like lossless audio, I want it even if I can't use it yet. But stating that uncompressed vs. compressed lossless audio is better is just a waist of breath, it's not.

So your opinions are shared by some but if you take the time to learn what the real differences are you'll understand that they really don't translate into better for the consumer.

**PFC5** · 10-14-2007, 02:39 PM

According to FilmMixer (pro film mixer for 20 years on films like We are Soldiers, etc) who is an insider at AVS, stated that the difference with 1.5mbps DD+ and lossless is so close that 99% of the people couldn't tell the difference between it and the master. Most of the difference people hear when comparing them are either; a) They are comparing it to Warner DD+ which is only 640kbps BECAUSE of BD's limits for DD at 640kbps, as they just port the HD DVD version to BD to save cost, or b) Because the recording levels are higher which makes it "appear" better because it is louder with the lossless encoding when not adjusting for the volume differences in how they were recorded.

BD was designed with that extra storage space BECAUSE it originated as a recording tech before AVC (mpeg4) or VC-1 came along. It was designed for the space/bandwidth hog MPEG2. They also wanted to avoid licensing of the HD audio codecs and opted to use the space/bandwidth hog uncompressed LPCM too.

THIS is the reason it came with the higher space/bandwidth in the spec. It NEEDED it for how they planned to do video & sound with it.

By the way, when the TL HD51 disc comes and possibly the DL HD34 they will get an automatic bandwidth increase just because the data is closer together on the 17GB per layer. It has 13.33% more density so it will pick up a 13.33% increase in bandwidth just because of this.

Stew4HD · 10-14-2007, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BiggNewt

PS2 didn't do too bad as a DVD player. DVD was still a very young format, and people bought a PS2 and used the player.

DVD was not a young format when the PS2 was released.. The first playstation, yes but not the PS2. I didn't know anyone that bought a PS2 for DVD playback. Who the heck would want a gaming machine as their primary playback device other than gamers with the PS2 being relegated to he kid's bedrooms, as was in my house.

As to the OP and his argument regarding capacity and bitrate: All movies are encoded and when done properly, has nothing to do with space. It has been shown time and again. King Kong is arguably the best result of HD. I have and have seen both Crank & Casino Royale, which BD fans call the coup de gras of BD and neither look as clear, crisp or sharp as KK.

Bitrate? Ok, do tell how the sligth edge is going to make the big difference? Not enough to make J6P to spend the extra $$ on a BD player as sales of players of late has shown.

HD DVD started out in a big deficit this year due to the PS3 but the HD DVD players continue to sell and sell out at B&M's all over when the BD players are gathering dust along with the PS3. Will things change in BD's favor? I dunno but if things continue to go as they have been over the recent months.. HD DVD will take the lead. That said, neither is putting much of a dent in SD DVD sales...

Super XP · 10-14-2007, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venomxr8

I am posting this thread today to voice my opinion on the hi def format “war” going on between Blu Ray and HD DVD and why I think that Blu Ray will be the eventual winner. There has been a lot of childish behaviour from both sides and I for one am sick of it, therefore I feel I must state my opinion in a sensible and adult manner.

Firstly I’d like to state that the following opinions are my own and every one of you have the right to agree or disagree with my views, that’s what’s so great about living in today’s world.

Now to start my argument lets look at the two discs themselves:

Blu-ray
Storage capacity 25GB (single-layer)
50GB (dual-layer)
Laser wavelength 405nm (blue laser)
Numerical aperture (NA) 0.85
Disc diameter 120mm
Disc thickness 1.2mm
Protection layer 0.1mm
Hard coating Yes
Track pitch 0.32µm
Data transfer rate data 36.0Mbps (1x)
Data transfer rate (video/audio) 54.0Mbps (1.5x)
Video resolution (max) 1920×1080 (1080p)
Video bit rate (max) 40.0Mbps
Video codecs MPEG-2
MPEG-4 AVC
SMPTE VC-1
Audio codecs Linear PCM
Dolby Digital
Dolby Digital Plus
Dolby TrueHD
DTS Digital Surround
DTS-HD
Interactivity BD-J

HD DVD
Storage capacity 15GB (single-layer)
30GB (dual-layer)
Laser wavelength 405nm (blue laser)
Numerical aperture (NA) 0.65
Disc diameter 120mm
Disc thickness 1.2mm
Protection layer 0.6mm
Hard coating No
Track pitch 0.40µm
Data transfer rate data 36.55Mbps (1x)
Data transfer rate (video/audio) 36.55Mbps (1.5x)
Video resolution (max) 1920×1080 (1080p)
Video bit rate (max) 28.0Mbps
Video codecs MPEG-2
MPEG-4 AVC
SMPTE VC-1
Audio codecs Linear PCM
Dolby Digital
Dolby Digital Plus
Dolby TrueHD
DTS Digital Surround
DTS-HD
Interactivity HDi

As you can see Blu Ray Discs can hold more storage capacity and can transfer video/audio data at a higher rate then HD DVD resulting in the ability for studio’s to release their movies on Blu Ray with higher quality video and audio than the HD-DVD format. Some examples of HD DVD’s storage capacity and bitrates hampering the format can be seen in the upcoming releases of Transformers and Shrek 3. These two movies which are going to be the two biggest on HD DVD for some time don’t feature lossless (or Hi Def) audio. Now when I purchase a so called “hi def” movie, I as a consumer expect to get what I spent my hard earned dollars for, a “hi def” movie, as in hi definition video AND AUDIO and HD DVD cannot provide it. Now you may have heard reports that the HD DVD camp has developed a 51 GB disc that may “solve” this problem but unfortunately even these discs WILL NOT improve the video/audio transfer rate and also there are reports that they won’t work on a first gen HD DVD player so therefore are not worth factoring into the equation. On the other side, Hitachi has in development, a 100 GB Blu Ray disc that has been reported to only need a firmware update to be compatible in current blu ray players. Storage space also becomes a factor for the home video enthusiast; with new Blu Ray PC Burners now available (and with more on the way) consumers can create their own HD movies in the comfort of home.

My next point is in regards to price. HD DVD supporters continue to bring this up as one of the main reasons to support their format. Basically the cheapest stand alone HD DVD player currently can only output in 1080i, while that’s good compared to standard DVD, it just isn’t full HD (1080p). With the prices of Blu Ray players falling and the newly announced 40 GB PS3 soon to hit the market the price gap is shortening. Another point to remember is that the price of movies are generally a few dollars less on Blu Ray than on HD DVD, so think of the player as your car, you only by one every few years whereas the movies are the fuel that runs your car, now we all buy fuel on a regular basis and its nice to get it at a cheaper price than the guy next door. Also take into consideration your own personal setup at home, you spent big dollars on your HDTV and your sound system, surely it seems reasonable that your new next gen movie player is priced relative to your setup. To use the car analogy again, you wouldn’t put a Toyota engine in a Ferrari body.

My third point of my argument is all about support. Firstly studio support, yes the Paramount/DreamWorks shift to support HD DVD exclusively did hurt Blu Ray but the majority of studios still support Blu, with only Warner the one major neutral studio supporting both. However there are rumblings that Universal (a HD DVD only studio) will become neutral sometime in 2008. As it stands the studio support is as follows:

Blu Ray: Disney, Fox, Warner, Sony, Lionsgate and MGM
HD DVD: Universal, DreamWorks, Paramount and Warner

Also in regards to support, Blu Ray doesn’t just have the edge in movie studio support, it also has the edge in hardware support, Blu-ray is currently supported by more than 180 of the world's leading consumer electronics, personal computer, recording media, video game and music companies which means there are a lot of models of blu ray players for the consumers to choose from, with company’s such as Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Denon, Pioneer, Philips, and Sharp all developing Blu Ray players while HD DVD only has Toshiba (and Toshiba derived) players and the Xbox 360 add on drive. Consumer electronics are all about choice but HD DVD doesn’t offer that. It’s more like a monopoly.

I feel I also must touch on one of the arguments that HD DVD supporters bring up again and again and that is the fact that Blu Ray specs are not “finalized” Basically at the moment, Blu Ray players do not have the ability YET to display picture in picture or allow web based content whereas HD DVD can. My response to this is that it is coming and it looks like it will be available with a simple firmware update. Also it seems that consumers don’t really hold pip high in their HD wants. A good example of this is the movie 300 which had pip on the HD DVD release but not on Blu Ray yet the Blu Ray copy out sold the HD DVD version 2 to 1. Also, if I was a HD DVD fan I would be pretty upset that my chosen format was losing to an UNFINISHED format, god help HD DVD when Blu Ray’s specs are finalized.

My last point (and I’m sorry if my rant has gone on for so long but these things need to be said) is in regards to the sales ratio of Blu Ray to HD DVD. Basically HD DVD is dead everywhere except in the United States. In Asia the ratio is around 96/04 in favor of Blu Ray, in Europe there was a recent report of a 4 to 1 ratio in favor of Blu and Australia is also around the 90/10 in favor of Blu. Only in the United States to the numbers get a little closer with Blu Ray winning every week in sales this year (see Nielsen/VideoScan weekly sales numbers) by around 65/35. So if the world has chosen Blu it’s only a matter of time before Blu Ray becomes the new HD Format Standard. You may not see it in your own backyards but you got to look at the big picture (I know the movie studios sure do) And with Huge releases coming up this holidays for Blu Ray (such as the Spiderman Trilogy, Pirates 3, Ratatouille and Cars to name a few) the sales ratio is just going to grow.

Anyway, that’s my 2 cents, I can confidently say that Blu Ray is the way to go and I hope it’s helped shed some light to those out there who are unsure of which way to go this generation. After all, it’s the MOVIES that count and not the format.

Thank you for proving that HD DVD is the better choice. Your words, not mine

SLedford · 10-14-2007, 10:42 PM

We are about to hit the Christmas selling season with rumored $199 and below prices on HD-DVD players. The best current price on a BD player that I have seen is $389 (Sam's Club). The discounted price on this player is still $200 higher than the cheaper HD-DVD players. Time will tell, but I think there will be a huge number of HD-DVD players sold this season.

I read in another thread that there are production issues with BD movies. As many as 90% are defective and scrapped in production. Currently the movies are priced about the same, except for the HD-DVD combo disks. If the HD-DVD disks are cheaper to produce and the movies are priced the same at the retail level, somone is taking a hit by selling BD over HD-DVD. Will that someone (manufacturer or retailer) continue to make less on the BD disk, or will he change the retail price to reflect BD's higher cost?

venomxr8 wrote a fairly well written defense of BD from the point of an enthusiast. Unfortunately, Joe Six Pack will ultimately chose the winner, not the enthusiast, and if JSP owns a HD television it is a 42" LCD he got at Walmart on sale and is only capable of 720P. JSP doesn't give a rip about 1080P or any of the advanced sound options (he may be using the speakers built into the set). Know what he cares about? PRICE PRICE PRICE

I will probably buy a 2.0 BD player later this year, if the price drops some more, because there are movies I want available only in BD. But I think BD is in a jam that I am not sure they can overcome with the price issue.

10-14-2007, 08:51 AM	#1
venomxr8 Just Havin Fun!!! Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,080	Why I think Blu Ray will win the Format War I am posting this thread today to voice my opinion on the hi def format “war” going on between Blu Ray and HD DVD and why I think that Blu Ray will be the eventual winner. There has been a lot of childish behaviour from both sides and I for one am sick of it, therefore I feel I must state my opinion in a sensible and adult manner. Firstly I’d like to state that the following opinions are my own and every one of you have the right to agree or disagree with my views, that’s what’s so great about living in today’s world. Now to start my argument lets look at the two discs themselves: Blu-ray Storage capacity 25GB (single-layer) 50GB (dual-layer) Laser wavelength 405nm (blue laser) Numerical aperture (NA) 0.85 Disc diameter 120mm Disc thickness 1.2mm Protection layer 0.1mm Hard coating Yes Track pitch 0.32µm Data transfer rate data 36.0Mbps (1x) Data transfer rate (video/audio) 54.0Mbps (1.5x) Video resolution (max) 1920×1080 (1080p) Video bit rate (max) 40.0Mbps Video codecs MPEG-2 MPEG-4 AVC SMPTE VC-1 Audio codecs Linear PCM Dolby Digital Dolby Digital Plus Dolby TrueHD DTS Digital Surround DTS-HD Interactivity BD-J HD DVD Storage capacity 15GB (single-layer) 30GB (dual-layer) Laser wavelength 405nm (blue laser) Numerical aperture (NA) 0.65 Disc diameter 120mm Disc thickness 1.2mm Protection layer 0.6mm Hard coating No Track pitch 0.40µm Data transfer rate data 36.55Mbps (1x) Data transfer rate (video/audio) 36.55Mbps (1.5x) Video resolution (max) 1920×1080 (1080p) Video bit rate (max) 28.0Mbps Video codecs MPEG-2 MPEG-4 AVC SMPTE VC-1 Audio codecs Linear PCM Dolby Digital Dolby Digital Plus Dolby TrueHD DTS Digital Surround DTS-HD Interactivity HDi As you can see Blu Ray Discs can hold more storage capacity and can transfer video/audio data at a higher rate then HD DVD resulting in the ability for studio’s to release their movies on Blu Ray with higher quality video and audio than the HD-DVD format. Some examples of HD DVD’s storage capacity and bitrates hampering the format can be seen in the upcoming releases of Transformers and Shrek 3. These two movies which are going to be the two biggest on HD DVD for some time don’t feature lossless (or Hi Def) audio. Now when I purchase a so called “hi def” movie, I as a consumer expect to get what I spent my hard earned dollars for, a “hi def” movie, as in hi definition video AND AUDIO and HD DVD cannot provide it. Now you may have heard reports that the HD DVD camp has developed a 51 GB disc that may “solve” this problem but unfortunately even these discs WILL NOT improve the video/audio transfer rate and also there are reports that they won’t work on a first gen HD DVD player so therefore are not worth factoring into the equation. On the other side, Hitachi has in development, a 100 GB Blu Ray disc that has been reported to only need a firmware update to be compatible in current blu ray players. Storage space also becomes a factor for the home video enthusiast; with new Blu Ray PC Burners now available (and with more on the way) consumers can create their own HD movies in the comfort of home. My next point is in regards to price. HD DVD supporters continue to bring this up as one of the main reasons to support their format. Basically the cheapest stand alone HD DVD player currently can only output in 1080i, while that’s good compared to standard DVD, it just isn’t full HD (1080p). With the prices of Blu Ray players falling and the newly announced 40 GB PS3 soon to hit the market the price gap is shortening. Another point to remember is that the price of movies are generally a few dollars less on Blu Ray than on HD DVD, so think of the player as your car, you only by one every few years whereas the movies are the fuel that runs your car, now we all buy fuel on a regular basis and its nice to get it at a cheaper price than the guy next door. Also take into consideration your own personal setup at home, you spent big dollars on your HDTV and your sound system, surely it seems reasonable that your new next gen movie player is priced relative to your setup. To use the car analogy again, you wouldn’t put a Toyota engine in a Ferrari body. My third point of my argument is all about support. Firstly studio support, yes the Paramount/DreamWorks shift to support HD DVD exclusively did hurt Blu Ray but the majority of studios still support Blu, with only Warner the one major neutral studio supporting both. However there are rumblings that Universal (a HD DVD only studio) will become neutral sometime in 2008. As it stands the studio support is as follows: Blu Ray: Disney, Fox, Warner, Sony, Lionsgate and MGM HD DVD: Universal, DreamWorks, Paramount and Warner Also in regards to support, Blu Ray doesn’t just have the edge in movie studio support, it also has the edge in hardware support, Blu-ray is currently supported by more than 180 of the world's leading consumer electronics, personal computer, recording media, video game and music companies which means there are a lot of models of blu ray players for the consumers to choose from, with company’s such as Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Denon, Pioneer, Philips, and Sharp all developing Blu Ray players while HD DVD only has Toshiba (and Toshiba derived) players and the Xbox 360 add on drive. Consumer electronics are all about choice but HD DVD doesn’t offer that. It’s more like a monopoly. I feel I also must touch on one of the arguments that HD DVD supporters bring up again and again and that is the fact that Blu Ray specs are not “finalized” Basically at the moment, Blu Ray players do not have the ability YET to display picture in picture or allow web based content whereas HD DVD can. My response to this is that it is coming and it looks like it will be available with a simple firmware update. Also it seems that consumers don’t really hold pip high in their HD wants. A good example of this is the movie 300 which had pip on the HD DVD release but not on Blu Ray yet the Blu Ray copy out sold the HD DVD version 2 to 1. Also, if I was a HD DVD fan I would be pretty upset that my chosen format was losing to an UNFINISHED format, god help HD DVD when Blu Ray’s specs are finalized. My last point (and I’m sorry if my rant has gone on for so long but these things need to be said) is in regards to the sales ratio of Blu Ray to HD DVD. Basically HD DVD is dead everywhere except in the United States. In Asia the ratio is around 96/04 in favor of Blu Ray, in Europe there was a recent report of a 4 to 1 ratio in favor of Blu and Australia is also around the 90/10 in favor of Blu. Only in the United States to the numbers get a little closer with Blu Ray winning every week in sales this year (see Nielsen/VideoScan weekly sales numbers) by around 65/35. So if the world has chosen Blu it’s only a matter of time before Blu Ray becomes the new HD Format Standard. You may not see it in your own backyards but you got to look at the big picture (I know the movie studios sure do) And with Huge releases coming up this holidays for Blu Ray (such as the Spiderman Trilogy, Pirates 3, Ratatouille and Cars to name a few) the sales ratio is just going to grow. Anyway, that’s my 2 cents, I can confidently say that Blu Ray is the way to go and I hope it’s helped shed some light to those out there who are unsure of which way to go this generation. After all, it’s the MOVIES that count and not the format.

10-14-2007, 09:06 AM	#2
brian451 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 163	... Last edited by brian451; 10-14-2007 at 09:11 AM.

10-14-2007, 11:25 AM	#9
ClashFan Joe Strummer Lives! Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 1,337	Actually, I find that 300's sales only being 2-1 for BR is very good news for HD DVD. Given all the PS3's out there (reportedly 2 million) and the nice demographic similarity b/t PS3ers and 300 fans (young males), I thought that 300 BR sales would be 3 or 4 to 1 over HD DVD. Yet, HD DVD hangs in there at only 2-1. I'll bet Planet Earth sales are a lot closet than that. Both sides throw around stats, but if you look at raw players, there's no questions that BR must have a 4-1 or so player advantage in the US. Yet, movies sales run 1.5 to 1 or 2 to 1. So, HD DVD player owners buy more titles per player bought. The PS3 alone cannot "win" this war. And, who knows how much profit/loss these # represent? I started out middle of last year completely format neutral, but curiously reading up on the format "war." After all my reading, I decided to make the plunge to HD DVD in October, 2007. I got a refurb A1 at that time for $322. It was in my price point (under $400...Blu-ray was nowhere to be seen, here). It has the dual video streams (I love "bonus" features for home theater) and internet support built right in! Plus, great picture and sound. I still find the whole "bigger is better" argument completely overly simple and, really, superflous. 50 gig vs. 30 gig. 99.9% of people could not care less. And, I'm one of them. We could argue MPEG vs. AVC, VC, STD, whatever.. yield rates, replication costs, etc. etc. I simply say, put out "2 Disc Special Editions" on HD DVD. Then, you've got 60 gigs vs. 50 gigs for the very few titles necessary. 50 is more than 30. But... 2 is more than 1! Neither of those slogans takes the full story into account. I figured I'd buy 10, 12, 15 or so titles that I really really wanted (like Batman Begins), and then just rent others via Netflix until the format war sorted itself out. Even if BR prevailed in 2007, I'd still use my A1 for DVD upconverting, great CD sound, and the few HD DVD titles I actually owned. However, after starting 2007 very strongly, BR stumbled (PS3 did not land a knockout blow to HD DVD....far from it). BR still has not got its 1.1 spec or internet interactivity ready. Sigh. So, I found myself buying more and more HD DVD titles and not adding BR support, as I thought I might. I just bought a second HD DVD player, the XA2, to the be centerpiece of my home theater. When/if I get a BR player in 2008, it will only be to buy BR exclusive titles. I'm now up to 65 HD DVD titles, and will buy many more in the weeks and months to come. It IS about the movies. Transformers, Shrek the Third, Star Trek, The Jack Ryan Collection, Battlestar Galactica, Heroes. etc. To each his own, and there are some BR titles I'd like to have, but right now HD DVD has far more bang for the buck. __________________ My gear: Samsung LN46A650 -- 46" 120 Hz Onkyo TX-SR674 receiver JBL Venue fronts, Infinity TSS-1100 center Infinity TSS-1100 surrounds and rear surrounds JBL SUB12 subwoofer Toshiba HD-XA2 HD DVD player (firmware 2.7) (100+ HD DVDs) Sony BDP-S550 BD player (51 BDs) Xbox 360 game console Comcast Motorola 6412 HDTV cable box Logitech Harmony 550 Remote 1 wife, 2 sons (ages 15 and 8)

10-14-2007, 02:39 PM	#12
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 28,040	According to FilmMixer (pro film mixer for 20 years on films like We are Soldiers, etc) who is an insider at AVS, stated that the difference with 1.5mbps DD+ and lossless is so close that 99% of the people couldn't tell the difference between it and the master. Most of the difference people hear when comparing them are either; a) They are comparing it to Warner DD+ which is only 640kbps BECAUSE of BD's limits for DD at 640kbps, as they just port the HD DVD version to BD to save cost, or b) Because the recording levels are higher which makes it "appear" better because it is louder with the lossless encoding when not adjusting for the volume differences in how they were recorded. BD was designed with that extra storage space BECAUSE it originated as a recording tech before AVC (mpeg4) or VC-1 came along. It was designed for the space/bandwidth hog MPEG2. They also wanted to avoid licensing of the HD audio codecs and opted to use the space/bandwidth hog uncompressed LPCM too. THIS is the reason it came with the higher space/bandwidth in the spec. It NEEDED it for how they planned to do video & sound with it. By the way, when the TL HD51 disc comes and possibly the DL HD34 they will get an automatic bandwidth increase just because the data is closer together on the 17GB per layer. It has 13.33% more density so it will pick up a 13.33% increase in bandwidth just because of this. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier

10-14-2007, 10:42 PM	#15
SLedford HD Fan Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 1,023	Cost of players and movies We are about to hit the Christmas selling season with rumored $199 and below prices on HD-DVD players. The best current price on a BD player that I have seen is $389 (Sam's Club). The discounted price on this player is still $200 higher than the cheaper HD-DVD players. Time will tell, but I think there will be a huge number of HD-DVD players sold this season. I read in another thread that there are production issues with BD movies. As many as 90% are defective and scrapped in production. Currently the movies are priced about the same, except for the HD-DVD combo disks. If the HD-DVD disks are cheaper to produce and the movies are priced the same at the retail level, somone is taking a hit by selling BD over HD-DVD. Will that someone (manufacturer or retailer) continue to make less on the BD disk, or will he change the retail price to reflect BD's higher cost? venomxr8 wrote a fairly well written defense of BD from the point of an enthusiast. Unfortunately, Joe Six Pack will ultimately chose the winner, not the enthusiast, and if JSP owns a HD television it is a 42" LCD he got at Walmart on sale and is only capable of 720P. JSP doesn't give a rip about 1080P or any of the advanced sound options (he may be using the speakers built into the set). Know what he cares about? PRICE PRICE PRICE I will probably buy a 2.0 BD player later this year, if the price drops some more, because there are movies I want available only in BD. But I think BD is in a jam that I am not sure they can overcome with the price issue. __________________ Toshiba 57H83 television, Paradigm Monitor 5 front speakers, Paradigm CC370 center speaker, Paradigm Mini Monitor surround speakers, Sony subwoofer, Yamaha HRT-5590 receiver, Denon DVD-2800 II, Toshiba HD-DVD A2, Play Station 3 - 40 Gig, Comcast HD Cable

10-14-2007, 09:10 AM	#3
brian451 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 163	you're biggest argument about better picture and sound quality is no more legitimate than an argument that sony produces hdtvs produce better picture and sound than a westinghouse or a phillips...yes of course sony hdtvs are better, but does that mean that westinghouse or phillips are useless and wont survive. the difference is so incredibly tiny that to me it means absolutely nothing...even if everyone even had the best possible hdtv to view the discs on. picture quality is just as meaningless as total disc sales right now. hardware sales is the biggest thing that is going to win over studios and price is the biggest thing that is going to win over consumers...period. you just so conveniently failed to mention that hd-dvd is completely obliterating bluray in standalone sales...and yes a sht load of ps3 help in the short term but mean nothing in the longterm. 95% of people that buy a player in the next ten years are not going to buy a ps3 to watch a disc...that's asinine to argue they would...they are going to buy a standalone playere. if this format isnt decided by spring, neither format will die

10-14-2007, 11:55 AM	#10
cbcdesign High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: North Somerset, UK Posts: 1,301	One of the biggest flaws with Blu-ray is the fact that it requires brand new pressing plants to manufacture the disks whereas HD DVD can be made in existing DVD manufacturing facilities once the equipment has been modified. Like it or not, HD has to survive alongside DVD for the forseable future and that means manufacturing facilities need to be able to press both HD DVD and DVD disks to turn a profit until HD disks are sold in higher numbers. It's so much easier and cheaper to produce HD DVD that all blu-ray can do is hinder the rate at which HD DVD can replace DVD. I don't see any possibility of Blu-ray becoming the "standard" under these circumstances. Blu-ray need consumers to abandon DVD and move exclusively to their new format and that is not going to happen any time soon. Sony are the only company investing in these new expensive blu-ray installations so far and we are already seeing delay after delay as they struggle to produce reliable disks and they invented the format! Studios will become increasingly frustrated with the problems that the blu-ray manufacturing process exhibits and it will only take one or two more neutral studios to go HD DVD exclusive to cripple Blu-ray entirely. I appreciate your thoughts but studios couldn't care less about bit rates and capacity. What they care about is profit just like every other business and they can make a lot more money with HD DVD than they can with blu-ray. I don't know who will win but I honestly don't believe things are going well for blu-ray and I will be very surprised if they can.

10-14-2007, 02:24 PM	#11
crazyal Smarter than the ave bear Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,304	You're right, this is just your opinion. Most (if not all) of your arguments really don't translate into an improvement in the real world over HD DVD. IMO disc capacity favors HD DVD. By only having two sizes to choose from it forces studios to choose between the savings of single layer or the more expensive DL. HD DVD offers 15gb, 17gb, 30gb, 34gb, 15gb + 4.7gb DVD, and soon will offer 51gb and is working towards 34gb+4.7gb dvd and 17gb+9.4gb dvd. So size favors HD DVD. Your trying to blame HD DVD for movies (Transformers and Shrek ) not using lossless audio codecs would be like blaming Ferrari because I decided to replace the tires on it with recaps. Toshiba made the lossless codecs avalible, not their fault the studio didn't use them. 1080i argument also favors HD DVD. How many HDTVs don't support 1080p? Why force them to pay for something they can't use? Besides every HDTV can upscale 1080i to 1080p just fine since all OTA, cable, and sat only comes this way. This allows the user to decide if he would like to spend the extra money or not. The new profiles are the reason I have not bought a BD player yet. It's hardly a simple FW update should fix the PS3 but clearly will not fix all the SA players sold to date. If BD never said they were coming it would be different and I may never use them but I want them. Just like lossless audio, I want it even if I can't use it yet. But stating that uncompressed vs. compressed lossless audio is better is just a waist of breath, it's not. So your opinions are shared by some but if you take the time to learn what the real differences are you'll understand that they really don't translate into better for the consumer.

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