The Sorry State Of Affairs - Blu-ray Disc Interactivity and You

Lee Stewart · 09-21-2007, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

I have a feeling that they are having problems getting the existing players to work properly with BD+, but I am just guessing judging by how everything else seems to be going with the profiles having issues too.

Interesting read about BD+. It is CEM dependent:

http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/vectors/brcp.pdf

Dare · 09-21-2007, 05:47 PM

Interesting read. They seem to have the hackers' plans of attack already mapped out. With such a complex system, the real problem will be the one approach that they didn't think of.

fmw · 09-21-2007, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

And you think consumers see a difference?

Consumers do not separate the format from the players. As a matter of fact both the format AND the players are unable to do these features. You can say they CAN put those features on a BD movie disc, but there is nothing that can player them yet and any AVAILABLE current BD player purchased cannot.

How could this be anything but deception? I bet most people would think this way about it. Remember, most people have not been following this war like we have. They are clueless that BD does not have completed specs and that the current and all announced BD players (except the $2,000.00 Denon BD layer), CANNOT play them. Even the BD insiders are saying that these players cannot be updated to play them AT ALL in the future.

Also add that Denon is saying it is possible that future BD movies utilizing 1.1/2.0 specs MIGHT not play or lock up ALL current 1.0 players too.

What consumers think and understand isn't an issue. Confusing is one thing, lying is another. So, don't buy a Blu-Ray player. That's fine with me.

Lazarus · 09-21-2007, 08:04 PM

Wouldn't a simple firmware update correct any potential problems with compatibility?

**PFC5** · 09-21-2007, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fmw

What consumers think and understand isn't an issue. Confusing is one thing, lying is another. So, don't buy a Blu-Ray player. That's fine with me.

I already own a PS3 so I already have a BD player. That is not what we were discussing. You said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by fmw

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that they are advertising these features for Blu-Ray, not specific Blu-Ray players? To say the Players had the features would be a lie.

They are advertising something they cannot do and NO player CAN do them now or with an update.

That IS the point. I think it is dishonest to advertise that you can do something you cannot do currently and NONE of the players you have available will EVER be able to do what the BDA is advertising they can do.

Consumers that do not come to a forum like this, will likely never know that the players they might buy now will NEVER player those advertised features. If that isn't false advertising and deceptive advertising I couldn't imagine WHAT you might consider would qualify to be called those things.

What would YOU consider deceptive advertising then?

**PFC5** · 09-21-2007, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarus

Wouldn't a simple firmware update correct any potential problems with compatibility?

We can HOPE for the sake of all the people who bought a standalone BD player that they can get a firmware update to be able to play the movie on the future Profile 1.1 or 2.0 BD movie discs, but the BD insiders have already stated that none of the current players can be updated to profile 1.1/2.0 to use those interactive features, with the possible exception of the PS3.

oblioman · 09-22-2007, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

The legality of the issue is that the PS3 will probably be able to be FW UP to both a 1.1 and 2.0 player. As 90+% of the BD players are PS3's this is how they skirt around the legal issue.

The fact that no SAL can do either profile yet - that is another whole ball game. And as a fact - we have yet to see the announcement of a true 1.1 enabled movie. All IME BD movies so far announced for this year are nothing more than BD-J movies with fake PIP added to them.

Umm,,what be fake about the PIP? Picture in picture is exactly what it says. Or are you talking the delivery? Profile,schmofile, it all adds up to extra fluff and will not compell the average consumer to purchase a movie.

Lee Stewart · 09-22-2007, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oblioman

Umm,,what be fake about the PIP? Picture in picture is exactly what it says. Or are you talking the delivery? Profile,schmofile, it all adds up to extra fluff and will not compell the average consumer to purchase a movie.

Fake PIP is two versions of the movie on the disc. One with PIP and one without. So is that the use of the greater storage that BD offers?

And it better compley the consumer to buy because we know that higher PQ and AQ means very little to the averge consumer. (Think LD)

Dare · 09-22-2007, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Fake PIP is two versions of the movie on the disc. One with PIP and one without. So is that the use of the greater storage that BD offers?

And it better compley the consumer to buy because we know that higher PQ and AQ means very little to the averge consumer. (Think LD)

LD was expensive to enter, and you couldn't record on it. Tivo didn't come along until way later.

daleb · 09-22-2007, 01:37 PM

One has to wonder how much thought (as in engineering) went into the the first BD players.
So far, Toshiba has been able to correct AND improve specific areas in their players since day one through firmware updates. And the side comments from some BD proponents about how Toshiba was "still building their players after they sold them" ... are not heard much any more.
Toshiba, either by accident (unlikely), or careful planning scheduled improvements and refinements from day one to be easily handled by firmware upgrades. Naturally, correcting some minor problems along the way with updates.
This again supports my theory Sony's arrogance had them rushing into market with a player they deemed superior (of course, more storage space on the disk!!!) figuring they can take care of other problems later. HD DVD will not be around long enough to worry about. After all, we are SONY!!
I don't know if all of these things are facts. They are only based on observations. If someone has a better idea why things have happened they way they did, I am all ears!

**PFC5** · 09-22-2007, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daleb

One has to wonder how much thought (as in engineering) went into the the first BD players.
So far, Toshiba has been able to correct AND improve specific areas in their players since day one through firmware updates. And the side comments from some BD proponents about how Toshiba was "still building their players after they sold them" ... are not heard much any more.
Toshiba, either by accident (unlikely), or careful planning scheduled improvements and refinements from day one to be easily handled by firmware upgrades. Naturally, correcting some minor problems along the way with updates.
This again supports my theory Sony's arrogance had them rushing into market with a player they deemed superior (of course, more storage space on the disk!!!) figuring they can take care of other problems later. HD DVD will not be around long enough to worry about. After all, we are SONY!!
I don't know if all of these things are facts. They are only based on observations. If someone has a better idea why things have happened they way they did, I am all ears!

I agree and think you are SPOT ON with this post Daleb!

I think Sony and the BDA thought the PS3 would bury HD DVD by now and it wouldn't even be close, with 90% of all player/movie sales going to BD. They overestimated the PS3 effect, and underestimated the power of lower prices on the HD DVD side.

I also agree that once BD got HD DVD "out of the way" (under their PS3 plan) there would be no choice and they could take their time introducing the profiles, and lowering prices. I have NO DOUBT that IF HD DVD didn't exist, the cheapest BD player for the coming holidays would be $700.00+ and a feature stripped model at that. Yes even more feature stripped than the current BD players. I do not think many of them would be decoding DtHD, and this would require people to buy new receivers (also made mostly by the BD companies) to get all the HD sound they wanted.

They thought people would just live with the various profile issues because they would not have a choice. The problem is that HD DVD is STILL around and making up ground now, so they look bad not having Profile 1.1/2.0 players out and movies utilizing these features.

09-21-2007, 05:47 PM	#32
Dare I moon you. Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Phoenix, Arizona Posts: 4,437	Interesting read. They seem to have the hackers' plans of attack already mapped out. With such a complex system, the real problem will be the one approach that they didn't think of. __________________ LG GGC-H20L Super Multi Blue Blu-ray & HD DVD ROM Drive 58 31

09-21-2007, 08:04 PM	#34
Lazarus Killing monsters in 1080p Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 113	Wouldn't a simple firmware update correct any potential problems with compatibility? __________________ Evil genius for a better tomorrow

09-22-2007, 01:37 PM	#40
daleb High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Clovis, CA Posts: 7,351	One has to wonder how much thought (as in engineering) went into the the first BD players. So far, Toshiba has been able to correct AND improve specific areas in their players since day one through firmware updates. And the side comments from some BD proponents about how Toshiba was "still building their players after they sold them" ... are not heard much any more. Toshiba, either by accident (unlikely), or careful planning scheduled improvements and refinements from day one to be easily handled by firmware upgrades. Naturally, correcting some minor problems along the way with updates. This again supports my theory Sony's arrogance had them rushing into market with a player they deemed superior (of course, more storage space on the disk!!!) figuring they can take care of other problems later. HD DVD will not be around long enough to worry about. After all, we are SONY!! I don't know if all of these things are facts. They are only based on observations. If someone has a better idea why things have happened they way they did, I am all ears! __________________ Samsung PN50A650 plasma, Arcam AVR350, Dali Ikon6 (Vokal2&OnWalls), Outlaw Audio LFM-1EX sub, Anti-Mode 8033B, Oppo Digital BDP-83, Polk XM Tuner, Furman Elite power conditioner