Why Did We Complicate HD Disc So Much?

Lee Stewart · 08-02-2007, 09:05 PM

DVD - bring it up - plug a S-video cable and an audio cable in - presto - images with sound in DD5.1 or DTS5.1

HD Disc:

Component or HDMI? Wait! Which version of HDMI?

Why are we still having problems with the HD DVD Combo (see the HD DVD 300 thread for my last post)?

Why do you have to be a rocket scientist (or an audio engineer) to understand the Advanced Audio Codec's?

Why do we resort to a old system left over from DVD-A/SACD to hear them (Analog Out)?

What was wrong with DD5.1 or DD6.1? Why is 7.1 important when there are no movies made in this format?

Why is 24P so important when there are probably less than 200,000 HDTV's (if that much) out of 50 million that can take advantage of it?

Why are we splintering the marketplace into smaller and smaller groups (above issues)? Just off the top of my head it will take about $5000 to get all the features listed above and that doesn't include speakers - just the HDTV, the Receiver and the HDD player.

And with all the time I have spent recently doing research - I still can't figure out DTS-MA!

?

Dare · 08-02-2007, 09:54 PM

Maybe it's because HDTV is still in its infancy. Yeah yeah, I know HDTV was invented in 1969, but the current, commercialized implementation is pretty new. DVD isn't really any more complicated than VHS, and plugged in nicely to existing systems. Now we want to do all these fancy schmancy things with our discs, and we and our equipment haven't gotten accustomed to the new technologies yet. It'll settle down and standardize over time.

Television was just as much of a mess in the '30s and '40s before the NTSC settled the dust. That must have been the very first format war.

oblioman · 08-03-2007, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

DVD - bring it up - plug a S-video cable and an audio cable in - presto - images with sound in DD5.1 or DTS5.1

HD Disc:

Component or HDMI? Wait! Which version of HDMI?

Why are we still having problems with the HD DVD Combo (see the HD DVD 300 thread for my last post)?

Why do you have to be a rocket scientist (or an audio engineer) to understand the Advanced Audio Codec's?

Why do we resort to a old system left over from DVD-A/SACD to hear them (Analog Out)?

What was wrong with DD5.1 or DD6.1? Why is 7.1 important when there are no movies made in this format?

Why is 24P so important when there are probably less than 200,000 HDTV's (if that much) out of 50 million that can take advantage of it?

Why are we splintering the marketplace into smaller and smaller groups (above issues)? Just off the top of my head it will take about $5000 to get all the features listed above and that doesn't include speakers - just the HDTV, the Receiver and the HDD player.

And with all the time I have spent recently doing research - I still can't figure out DTS-MA!

?

Me loves your post Lee!!

Somedays be a whole lot more refreshing if we just "simple down". But alas, me also be a culprit of high tech and simply enjoy when something works. Me won't tell you how many vid cards or processors me has fried trying to "tweak" things. Me garage is full of failed experiments - some good -some bad - some during a drunken stupor - some being almost sober. All the acronyms tossed our way have surely got the consumer confused. HD DVD BD HDMI DVI HDCP HTIB VGA RIAA MPAA DVD+R DVD-R BD+R. About the only nomer people understand is UFO. Thank mother nature for a retreat. A camera and a hike peaks me attitude more than anything else. Tidbits -

The older we get, the fewer things seem worth waiting in line for.
Some people try to turn back their odometers. Not me, I want people to know why I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved.
When you are dissatisfied and would like to go back to youth, think of Algebra.
I don't know how I got over the hill without getting to the top.
One of the many things no one tells you about aging is that it is such a nice change from being young.
Ah, being young is beautiful, but being old is comfortable.
Old age is when former classmates are so gray and wrinkled and bald, they don't recognize you.
If you don't learn to laugh at trouble, you won't have anything to laugh at when you are old

Rick-F · 08-03-2007, 09:44 AM

Complicated . . . many, many years ago I had a device called a cellular phone. It made and recieved phone calls and was quite simple and easy to use. Now, I have this tiny little device with about 30 buttons and a seemingly endless branching menu system-- and I just want to make and get phone calls-- I don't shoot video with my phone, take pictures, navigate the byways, use as a PDA, surf the web, text message, see a picture of who is calling, etc., etc. Heck, I think an HD-DVD set up is much simpler than my phone. . .

MikeRox · 08-03-2007, 10:11 AM

Why not buy a simpler mobile phone then? There are still basic models in production, and the best bit is you're not faced to pay the extra cost incurred by the extra features you didn't want.

Basic colour phones that make and receive calls, send txt messages and thats about it will set you back about £15 brand new over here

brenner · 08-03-2007, 11:20 AM

Lee,
The 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1 scenario:
5.1 needs no explanation.
6.1- Yes, there are some movies that use it. In your home theater system it uses a rear phantom center speaker. And I believe it mixes the info from the rear surrounds.
7.1- not sure about all receivers. But some Yamaha's use six and seven as front left and right placed between the main left and main right and the center. And also placed near the ceiling pointing downward. The information is the same as the mains.
A salesman can explain why it is a fuller sound. But I have yet to hear it set up to warrant doing it.
If I'm wrong about all this feel free to let me know.

GLOW · 08-03-2007, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

DVD - bring it up - plug a S-video cable and an audio cable in - presto - images with sound in DD5.1 or DTS5.1

HD Disc:

Component or HDMI? Wait! Which version of HDMI?

Why are we still having problems with the HD DVD Combo (see the HD DVD 300 thread for my last post)?

Why do you have to be a rocket scientist (or an audio engineer) to understand the Advanced Audio Codec's?

Why do we resort to a old system left over from DVD-A/SACD to hear them (Analog Out)?

What was wrong with DD5.1 or DD6.1? Why is 7.1 important when there are no movies made in this format?

Why is 24P so important when there are probably less than 200,000 HDTV's (if that much) out of 50 million that can take advantage of it?

Why are we splintering the marketplace into smaller and smaller groups (above issues)? Just off the top of my head it will take about $5000 to get all the features listed above and that doesn't include speakers - just the HDTV, the Receiver and the HDD player.

And with all the time I have spent recently doing research - I still can't figure out DTS-MA!

?

Lee... you just blew my mind.

Now I'm questioning EVERYTHING.

Nah seriously, though, you listed the main reasons why "Joe 3 Fingers o' Whiskey" and "Jane Wine Cooler" will never understand how to fully use their HD set-ups and/or see/hear what is so great about our beloved formats. Eventually everything will get easier, we are all just early adopters running to keep up with tech so we have to deal with all the problems. These things CAN be important to some people. Me, for example.

Lee Stewart · 08-03-2007, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GLOW

Lee... you just blew my mind.

Now I'm questioning EVERYTHING.

Nah seriously, though, you listed the main reasons why "Joe 3 Fingers o' Whiskey" and "Jane Wine Cooler" will never understand how to fully use their HD set-ups and/or see/hear what is so great about our beloved formats. Eventually everything will get easier, we are all just early adopters running to keep up with tech so we have to deal with all the problems. These things CAN be important to some people. Me, for example.

Well what do you know? We are in 100% agreement. Your post speaks volumes of what is going on. Kudo's to you.

Lee Stewart · 08-03-2007, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brenner

Lee,
The 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1 scenario:
5.1 needs no explanation.
6.1- Yes, there are some movies that use it. In your home theater system it uses a rear phantom center speaker. And I believe it mixes the info from the rear surrounds.
7.1- not sure about all receivers. But some Yamaha's use six and seven as front left and right placed between the main left and main right and the center. And also placed near the ceiling pointing downward. The information is the same as the mains.
A salesman can explain why it is a fuller sound. But I have yet to hear it set up to warrant doing it.
If I'm wrong about all this feel free to let me know.

Please list a movie title that played in a commerical movie theater that was mixed for 7.1 surround with 4 discrete surround channels.

brenner · 08-03-2007, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

Please list a movie title that played in a commerical movie theater that was mixed for 7.1 surround with 4 discrete surround channels.

There is none. I was trying to clarify what 7.1 was. Might not of explained it properly though. In a 7.1 setup you have less information coming from your speakers than you do with 6.1. What it really is is another way for manufacturers to sell receivers.
I agree the new audio codecs being used with BD and HD-DVD is quite confusing. And I may not be able to tell the difference from one to the other. I know I want the one that is the best though. Which one that is has yet to be determined.

Lee Stewart · 08-03-2007, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brenner

There is none. I was trying to clarify what 7.1 was. Might not of explained it properly though. In a 7.1 setup you have less information coming from your speakers than you do with 6.1. What it really is is another way for manufacturers to sell receivers.
I agree the new audio codecs being used with BD and HD-DVD is quite confusing. And I may not be able to tell the difference from one to the other. I know I want the one that is the best though. Which one that is has yet to be determined.

I know what 7.1 is. It is a semi-successful "buzz word" that CE manufacturers are using to sell more speakers and more expensive receivers

It is NOT a consumer version of a commerical cinema audio format which are only 5.1 and 6.1.

Just on a trivia note . . . The highest channels count for commerical movie theaters (read at least 100) was 8 channels. 5 screen channels and 3 surround. 6 movies were made. The process was changed a few years later to 6 channels removing the 2 extra surround channels and making the surround track mono in the theater.

1952. The original process: Cinerama. Replaced in 1961 by Todd AO - the mother of 70mm 6 Track Mag presentation.

I am a purest when it comes to Aspect Ratio (except IMAX) and Sound Track. I know I am not alone in this thinking. I want to hear what the sound engineers heard when they watched the movie for the first time. . . their baby.

7.1 to me is like colorization of B & W films. A marketing attempt to sell a product to people whose interest is small in the original and said interests may be peaked by changing a film to make it more to their likes and tastes.

If you were born after 1965 - you have never seen a B & W TV show broadcast live. Just a stated fact

So guess what? There is a 7.1 BD available - from Lions Gate. . . . An Avengers Cartoon. . . .

brenner · 08-03-2007, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

I know what 7.1 is. It is a semi-successful "buzz word" that CE manufacturers are using to sell more speakers and more expensive receivers

It is NOT a consumer version of a commerical cinema audio format which are only 5.1 and 6.1.

Just on a trivia note . . . The highest channels count for commerical movie theaters (read at least 100) was 8 channels. 5 screen channels and 3 surround. 6 movies were made. The process was changed a few years later to 6 channels removing the 2 extra surround channels and making the surround track mono in the theater.

1952. The original process: Cinerama. Replaced in 1961 by Todd AO - the mother of 70mm 6 Track Mag presentation.

I am a purest when it comes to Aspect Ratio (except IMAX) and Sound Track. I know I am not alone in this thinking. I want to hear what the sound engineers heard when they watched the movie for the first time. . . their baby.

7.1 to me is like colorization of B & W films. A marketing attempt to sell a product to people whose interest is small in the original and said interests may be peaked by changing a film to make it more to their likes and tastes.

If you were born after 1965 - you have never seen a B & W TV show broadcast live. Just a stated fact

So guess what? There is a 7.1 BD available - from Lions Gate. . . . An Avengers Cartoon. . . .

I never bought in to the 7.1 scenario. Just like I never bought in to the 6.1 scenario. There are better ways to spend my money. As it stands now I need a new receiver anyway. The Denon 3808CI. Hopefully this is all I will need for the new audio codecs coming out.

A 7.1 BD? Man, I didn't want to hear that.

Previously Glow mentioned

Quote:

Eventually everything will get easier.

That would be nice. But I have reservations.

**PFC5** · 08-03-2007, 04:24 PM

That is a sweeeeet receiver!

Lee Stewart · 08-03-2007, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brenner

I never bought in to the 7.1 scenario. Just like I never bought in to the 6.1 scenario. There are better ways to spend my money. As it stands now I need a new receiver anyway. The Denon 3808CI. Hopefully this is all I will need for the new audio codecs coming out.

A 7.1 BD? Man, I didn't want to hear that.

Previously Glow mentioned That would be nice. But I have reservations.

Very nice reveiver. Seems to have it all. I wish you the best with it.

Reservations? - they wouldn't pertain to how J6P is going to deal with all this is it?

Joe: "Firmware? I know what Software is. What is Firmware?"

The more questions Joe has . . the more turned off to the format(s) he will be. Joe LOVES the KISS principal as applied to CE products. He always has.

He never did figure out how to make his VCR clock stop blinking "12:00" did he?

brenner · 08-03-2007, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

That is a sweeeeet receiver!

I haven't got an exact price yet. But I have a dealer that will wholesale it to me. I thinking (hoping) 8 bills.

08-02-2007, 09:05 PM	#1
Lee Stewart Behold - the future! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Albuquerque, NM Age: 58 Posts: 25,193	Why Did We Complicate HD Disc So Much? DVD - bring it up - plug a S-video cable and an audio cable in - presto - images with sound in DD5.1 or DTS5.1 HD Disc: Component or HDMI? Wait! Which version of HDMI? Why are we still having problems with the HD DVD Combo (see the HD DVD 300 thread for my last post)? Why do you have to be a rocket scientist (or an audio engineer) to understand the Advanced Audio Codec's? Why do we resort to a old system left over from DVD-A/SACD to hear them (Analog Out)? What was wrong with DD5.1 or DD6.1? Why is 7.1 important when there are no movies made in this format? Why is 24P so important when there are probably less than 200,000 HDTV's (if that much) out of 50 million that can take advantage of it? Why are we splintering the marketplace into smaller and smaller groups (above issues)? Just off the top of my head it will take about $5000 to get all the features listed above and that doesn't include speakers - just the HDTV, the Receiver and the HDD player. And with all the time I have spent recently doing research - I still can't figure out DTS-MA! ? Last edited by Lee Stewart; 08-02-2007 at 09:08 PM.

08-02-2007, 09:54 PM	#2
Dare I moon you. Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Phoenix, Arizona Posts: 4,436	Maybe it's because HDTV is still in its infancy. Yeah yeah, I know HDTV was invented in 1969, but the current, commercialized implementation is pretty new. DVD isn't really any more complicated than VHS, and plugged in nicely to existing systems. Now we want to do all these fancy schmancy things with our discs, and we and our equipment haven't gotten accustomed to the new technologies yet. It'll settle down and standardize over time. Television was just as much of a mess in the '30s and '40s before the NTSC settled the dust. That must have been the very first format war. __________________ LG GGC-H20L Super Multi Blue Blu-ray & HD DVD ROM Drive 58 31

08-03-2007, 11:20 AM	#6
brenner HD Rules Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Vancouver, USA Age: 58 Posts: 2,006	Lee, The 5.1, 6.1 and 7.1 scenario: 5.1 needs no explanation. 6.1- Yes, there are some movies that use it. In your home theater system it uses a rear phantom center speaker. And I believe it mixes the info from the rear surrounds. 7.1- not sure about all receivers. But some Yamaha's use six and seven as front left and right placed between the main left and main right and the center. And also placed near the ceiling pointing downward. The information is the same as the mains. A salesman can explain why it is a fuller sound. But I have yet to hear it set up to warrant doing it. If I'm wrong about all this feel free to let me know. __________________ Pioneer Elite Pro FHD-1 LG LSS-3200A Satellite Box Pioneer CLD-97 LD Player w/AC-3 mod Toshiba HD-XA2 HD DVD player Onkyo DV-HD805 HD DVD player Monitor S series speakers Velodyne Mini-Vee Yamaha RX-V1800 receiver MX-850 Aeros Remote

08-03-2007, 04:24 PM	#13
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 28,385	That is a sweeeeet receiver! __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier

Similar Threads to Why Did We Complicate HD Disc So Much?
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
HD DVD with 70% of stand alones. Can Sony win?	Buford_Pusser	High Definition Media	86	12-05-2007 10:18 PM
Universal to deliver 100 exclusive HD DVD movies in 2007	hmurchison	High Definition Media	102	12-03-2007 11:55 AM
DISH/VOOM pathetic HD lineup	hitdog042	DirecTV Forum	2	06-19-2007 03:48 PM
DTV Announces 1st 12 Markets to Get Local Channels In HD	Sivad	DirecTV Forum	23	03-11-2005 11:42 AM

08-03-2007, 09:44 AM	#4
Rick-F 58" & 50" PDP / 2 32" LCD Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 1,560	Complicated . . . many, many years ago I had a device called a cellular phone. It made and recieved phone calls and was quite simple and easy to use. Now, I have this tiny little device with about 30 buttons and a seemingly endless branching menu system-- and I just want to make and get phone calls-- I don't shoot video with my phone, take pictures, navigate the byways, use as a PDA, surf the web, text message, see a picture of who is calling, etc., etc. Heck, I think an HD-DVD set up is much simpler than my phone. . .

08-03-2007, 10:11 AM	#5
MikeRox Blu Blu Skies! :D Join Date: May 2007 Location: Huddersfield, United Kingdom Posts: 12,416	Why not buy a simpler mobile phone then? There are still basic models in production, and the best bit is you're not faced to pay the extra cost incurred by the extra features you didn't want. Basic colour phones that make and receive calls, send txt messages and thats about it will set you back about £15 brand new over here