Amir M. weighs in on Blockbuster decision

Chris Gerhard · 06-28-2007, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobyblue

If you'd like me to list all the titles one by one I can, but instead I'll just show you the last 30 reviews from each studio and you can make your own mind up - after all without proof both of us can just waffle on, but with it FUD is defeated by FACT.

Universal

Weinstein

Warner

Paramount

Fox

Sony

Lions Gate

Disney

So to wrap up and bust the FUD and show what dramatically really means:

PICTURE QUALITY

PQ Studio
4.32 Buena Vista
4.18 Sony
4.18 Paramount
3.92 Warner
3.87 Fox
3.67 Weinstein
3.55 Lionsgate
3.35 Universal

And just in case anyone is wondering, the Sound Quality is as follows.

SQ Studio
4.50 Buena Vista
4.18 Sony
3.82 Fox
3.73 Lionsgate
3.68 Warner
3.63 Weinstein
3.55 Paramount
3.53 Universal

Universal, over the last 30 scored reviews from High Def Digest, Upcoming Discs, DVD Talk, Home Theater Spot and Home Theater Forum, have average a whole star less than Buena Vista when it comes to PQ.

Why? I don't know. Is it attention to detail? If it was VC-1 then why isn't Warner lower? If it was the age of the movies...again...why isn't Warner lower? Look at how many reviews of their OLD movies from the 60's are in those last 30 reviews.

No I'd stand by my statement, Universal's PQ is pretty poor right now and has slipped dramatically.

Here's the FIRST 30 Universal reviews from those sites.

First 30 - 3.85
Last 30 - 3.35

You tell me which average you'd rather have your discs getting.

NO FUD HERE.

Nice summary of the independent testing site evidence. Maybe we won't have to endure the HD DVD is better in terms of picture quality nonsense any longer and maybe an admission that Universal isn't doing a very good job right now will be forthcoming.

Chris

Stew4HD · 06-28-2007, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard

Nice summary of the independent testing site evidence. Maybe we won't have to endure the HD DVD is better in terms of picture quality nonsense any longer and maybe an admission that Universal isn't doing a very good job right now will be forthcoming.

Chris

Dream on! You will certainly have to endure it because we disagree with you beloved "evidence". Quality is in the eyes of the beholder. Numbers can be skewed any way you want to see them skewed.

Chris, you are a real gem, damn I am glad you are here for us.

dobyblue · 06-28-2007, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stew4HD

LOL, you went to a lot of trouble for what? Whose reviews/ratings are these? You can pull out all the quotes you want to and I am sure you can find a review that states things differently. MY EYES and those of others on here do not see what you and your source do.

It's kinda of funny that Sony has the best ratings according to you source...

Anyhow, I only objected to your use of "dramatically" and I still object to that as it is overly harsh with no REAL proof. I buy HD DVDs regularily and many from Uni... I don't see this dramatic loss in PQ.

Did you not read the post?

High Def Digest
Home Theater Spot
Upcoming Discs
Home Theater Forum
DVD Talk

All scored reviews from those five sites are tracked and current as of June 18th, 2007.

The reason they are tracked from 5 sites instead of 1 is to even out subjectivity. If one sites reviews King Kong as 3.5 and the other 4 review it as a 5 then the average is 4.7 and a much better reflection of the excellent PQ we know is on King Kong than the 3.5 it hypothetically might have gotten from one site, which I hardly think it did.

In fact a quick check reveals the following.

King Kong 5.00 4.50 4.75
King Kong 5.00 5.00 5.00
King Kong 4.50 5.00 4.75
King Kong 4.50 5.00 4.75

So one site doesn't have a scored review of it and the average PQ is 4.75

Also it doesn't look to me like Sony has the best ratings, it looks like Disney does, but you be sure to go to any of those five sites and check their reviews. It's pretty obvious to anyone following this format war that's not living in a cave that Sony is the most improved studio of the last 4 months when it comes to consistency.

dobyblue · 06-28-2007, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stew4HD

Dream on! You will certainly have to endure it because we disagree with you beloved "evidence". Quality is in the eyes of the beholder. Numbers can be skewed any way you want to see them skewed.

Not in this case they can't.
You can't take these numbers and have them show HD DVD having more consistent PQ than Blu-ray so far this year no matter what you do.
You can pick one specific title and show it having better PQ than another, but you cannot take the reviews as a whole and do it.
That's simple fact.

dobyblue · 06-28-2007, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruceames

Actually, there's a few inconsistencies in those two before-after Universal lists. For one thing in the after list there's many multiple reviews of the same movies, while in the early movies they are all unique. Apples to oranges. Additionally Superman Returns, a WB movie, is in the early Universal list, which might cause some to raise accuracy concerns.

Lucky for Uni they have a 4.50 review in there accidentally.
I started tracking only High Def Digest late last year.
Then I added Home Theater Spot and DVD Talk and soon after that added Upcoming Discs and Home Theater Forum.
If I added another site.....my spouse will cut off my nads.
(but we'll see)

I was tracking just the reviews by site but then after a lot of insistence and questions I was being asked to track by studio which I eventually did.
So when I started the studio section I went to each worksheet and copied and pasted. The worksheets go in this order - HDD, HTS, DVD Talk, UD, HTF, hence the top part of each sheet will represent one review site, so you're right it is a little inconsistent.
If anything that does NOT bode well for Universal.

When you look at the difference between their overall PQ for everything that's been reviewed on HD DVD since day 1 you see it's somewhere in the 3.6x region. The last 30 reviews drop it to 3.35.
That is NOT good.

So the reason why obviously there are numerous reviews for titles in EVERY studio for the last 30 reviews is they now get put in from each of the five sites as they happen and I update every fortnight.

dobyblue · 06-28-2007, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruceames

accuracy concerns.

I'm pretty sure you've seen the entire list by site posted at High Def Digest in this thread.

High Def Digest's HD DVD reviews
http:///showpost.php?p=117355&postcount=4

Home Theater Spot's HD DVD reviews
http:///showpost.php?p=117357&postcount=5

DVD Talk's HD DVD reviews
http:///showpost.php?p=117358&postcount=6

Upcoming Discs's HD DVD reviews
http:///showpost.php?p=117359&postcount=7

Home Theater Forum's HD DVD reviews
http:///showpost.php?p=117360&postcount=8

MikeRox · 06-28-2007, 06:33 AM

Is it that the picture quality is getting worse? Or that expectations from HD releases is increasing?

PFC5 · 06-28-2007, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colt45

http://www./avs-vb/showthread.php?t=864116

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobyblue
You account for reviewer bias by including several sites in your reviews.

I track High Def Digest, Home THeater Spot, DVD Talk, Upcoming Discs and Home Theater Forum. Every review that has a score is included, none are excluded.

As of June 18th, 2007 there are 836 Blu-ray reviews and 731 HD DVD reviews with scores from those 5 sites.

HDD 172HD/212BD, HTS 171HD/201BD, HTF 55HD/76BD, UD 118HD/106BD, Talk 215HD/241BD
06.18.07
Code:
HD DVD PQ SQ TOTAL Blu-ray PQ SQ TOTAL
HighDef 3.96 3.64 3.80 HighDef 3.99 3.83 3.91
HTSpot 3.99 3.86 3.93 HTSpot 4.02 4.25 4.14
DVDTalk 3.66 3.51 3.58 DVDTalk 3.64 3.68 3.66
HTForum 4.04 3.80 3.92 HTForum 4.28 4.10 4.19
UpDisc 4.03 3.83 3.93 UpDisc 4.05 4.14 4.10
Totals 3.90 3.69 3.79 Totals 3.93 3.95 3.94

Of course some people might prefer to live in the past

I can tell you as a member of HTS that the main reviewer for BD movies (Chad) is a complete BD fan and hates HD DVD. Almost every movie he rates on BD gets 4.5-5.0 stars, and HAS done this since sometime last year when BD movies WERE inferior to HD with PQ.

Now David at HTS, who is now reviewing both formats has taken the (correct IMO) approach of almost never giving out a perfect score except very rarely, leaving room in his ratings for the inevitable improvements both formats will make like SD DVD did. The problem was for a while he did not have a BD player to do his reviews and had the avid BD fan Chad doing them until recently. Chad's a smart guy & a good guy, but NO ONE would say he is unbiased. He slams HD DVD with almost every post even when it is not any part of the topic.

The fact that the PQ scores at HTS are so close tells me something that I already know as a owner of both formats. That is that HD DVD still has the edge in PQ with all the movies I have seen on both formats. I think the big improvement that BD has made in PQ is great, but make no mistake, if it wasn't for HD DVD beating it in PQ and a competitive format around, I doubt Sony Studio releases would look this good this fast given the poor care they took early on. They HAD to improve BECAUSE of HD DVD kicking their butt with PQ. At this point, PQ is a moot issue for either format and is about the studios level of care in doing transfers and NOT about the format specs AT ALL.

What will happen IF HD DVD goes away? Will Sony Studios go back to making inferior initial HD transfers so they, as the KING of double/triple dipping (reselling multiple better PQ versions of the same movie) can make money offering incremental improvements with each re-release of the same movie like they have done with SD DVD?

I think at this point the best way to NOT have either/both formats become niche products/formats is to use the TWIN format that is possible with HD DVD but not possible with BD. BobY did an excellent job of explaining the plan for changing EVERYONE to HD with the TWIN discs, so I won't repeat it. Remember, SD DVDs are HALF the price now compared to what they were in the first 1-2 years of SD DVD being released. Prices for movies WILL come down or else the formats WILL be niche and the studios all know this. They recognized it with SD DVD and they will with HD too. If they do not, people WILL hack in great numbers like they did in the music industry.

Maybe THAT is why some studios like BD better. They figure that with BD+, they can keep HD movie prices higher without fear of copying rentals becoming more prevalent. Also consider that IF Sony is still subsidizing the BD disc mfg, that they would have no need to do this IF HD DVD went away.

As some BD fans have always said, 'You have to look to the future when you look at the formats'. What would happen if the defacto movie format standard goes from a hardware maker lead group to a studio AND hardware maker lead group? Especially when this new "leader" has shown us a history of double/triple dipping in the SD DVD format.

Without this format war, I wouldn't even be a early adopter because if SD DVD player price history is any indication, HD players would cost around $750.00 now. Remember, Sony, Pioneer, & Panasonic (all BD mfg), all said that prices would not come down anytime soon on player prices because the BD play component costs were higher AND that they were competing with supply of cell phone mfg components no less.

**bruceames** · 06-28-2007, 08:01 PM

I'm really sick of Blu-ray fanboys dumping on Universal. I know they have a hard on for the studio but that's too bad. If they are format exclusive to Blu-ray, I don't see why they care so much about Universal's PQ other than to take shots at them. Sounds pretty desperate to me.

Universal is in this for the long term. As long as Sony has their own studio to threaten them (and WB, Paramount) with a vertical monopoly, Blu-ray will never have all the studios. If it weren't for Sony Pictures, this format war would probably already be over, but this threat lingers and HD DVD leverage gives them a way out. For this reason, I will never buy Blu-ray if HD DVD loses (only if they coexist and HD DVD's future is assured)

**bruceames** · 06-28-2007, 08:08 PM

Well said, PFC5. I really like the twin format idea, and Boby, you and I seem to see eye to eye on the concept. Integration, rather than competition with DVD, is what the average consumer will want...and will choose in the end. HD DVD in this respect is the best format for the consumer and Blu-ray has already made it clear more than once that they aim to wipe out DVD. Somehow I don't see that in the consumer's best interests.

Lee Stewart · 06-28-2007, 08:22 PM

Does everyone remember this from April - the Sony report that showed sales by title:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/files/...port031807.zip

Well The Fifth Element was supposed to be a bad transfer yet according to this chart it was in the top 10 of sales, selling almost 22,000 copies at the time.

So this whole PQ thing - how objective is it? If "everyone" knew TFE was bad - and Sony even admitted it by making history by replacing, on a free exchange (never been done before with a non-defect movie) yet all those people bought it.

So is there some "fanboy" reviewing going on as has been suggested?

Chris Gerhard · 06-29-2007, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruceames

I'm really sick of Blu-ray fanboys dumping on Universal. I know they have a hard on for the studio but that's too bad. If they are format exclusive to Blu-ray, I don't see why they care so much about Universal's PQ other than to take shots at them. Sounds pretty desperate to me.

Universal is in this for the long term. As long as Sony has their own studio to threaten them (and WB, Paramount) with a vertical monopoly, Blu-ray will never have all the studios. If it weren't for Sony Pictures, this format war would probably already be over, but this threat lingers and HD DVD leverage gives them a way out. For this reason, I will never buy Blu-ray if HD DVD loses (only if they coexist and HD DVD's future is assured)

Another HD DVD enthusiasts claiming the Blu-ray group is desparate. That idea is so funny, the first place runner being desparate and the second place runner in a two runner race is just delighted. So Universal is the only major studio that believes this? Why not Warner, Fox, Paramount, LionsGate, and Disney? I can tell you why not, you are wrong. I don't know the reason behind Universal's strategy, but I do know I have never seen an announcement from Universal stating that reason. I have seen speculation that Universal is mad at Sony because of the Betamax case where the right of consumers recording and owning home (time shifting) video was won in court.

Universal has stated repeatedly that the company is committed to HD DVD because of the lower price to manufacture players and software. Of course that makes no sense now that it has to be clear that the only thing keeping HD DVD alive is the Universal exclusivity so the lower price advantage has turned out to be meaningless or at least not very meaningful.

If it is really fear of Sony that has Universal doing this, the company is lying to stockholders and consumers so I can't believe it is true.

Chris

Buford_Pusser · 06-29-2007, 04:19 AM

The Sony

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE21Bb4tWS4

LOL

Stew4HD · 06-29-2007, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard

Another HD DVD enthusiasts claiming the Blu-ray group is desparate. That idea is so funny, the first place runner being desparate and the second place runner in a two runner race is just delighted. So Universal is the only major studio that believes this? Why not Warner, Fox, Paramount, LionsGate, and Disney? I can tell you why not, you are wrong. I don't know the reason behind Universal's strategy, but I do know I have never seen an announcement from Universal stating that reason. I have seen speculation that Universal is mad at Sony because of the Betamax case where the right of consumers recording and owning home (time shifting) video was won in court.

Universal has stated repeatedly that the company is committed to HD DVD because of the lower price to manufacture players and software. Of course that makes no sense now that it has to be clear that the only thing keeping HD DVD alive is the Universal exclusivity so the lower price advantage has turned out to be meaningless or at least not very meaningful.

If it is really fear of Sony that has Universal doing this, the company is lying to stockholders and consumers so I can't believe it is true.

Chris

More mud/fud slinging from our local hero. It is easy to see that the BD camp will say and do anything to make HD DVD look bad, even to go so far as to claim outright victory. I doubt that Uni has any fear of Sony. I am guessing it is probaly more like loathing.

So, Uni is the ONLY thing keeping HD DVD afloat? Nah, player pricing, Warner bros and others are helping to do that. We supporters buying their players are a huge factor in keeping this a 2 format war. I will continue to do my part.

How can lower prices not have an impact? Man, you just don't get it.

brianh · 06-29-2007, 04:31 AM

I just saw on CNBC that Blockbuster is going to close 282 stores this year.

I put this in another thread and I apologize for that, moderators.

06-28-2007, 08:01 PM	#129
bruceames Super Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Novato, CA Posts: 15,524	I'm really sick of Blu-ray fanboys dumping on Universal. I know they have a hard on for the studio but that's too bad. If they are format exclusive to Blu-ray, I don't see why they care so much about Universal's PQ other than to take shots at them. Sounds pretty desperate to me. Universal is in this for the long term. As long as Sony has their own studio to threaten them (and WB, Paramount) with a vertical monopoly, Blu-ray will never have all the studios. If it weren't for Sony Pictures, this format war would probably already be over, but this threat lingers and HD DVD leverage gives them a way out. For this reason, I will never buy Blu-ray if HD DVD loses (only if they coexist and HD DVD's future is assured) __________________ RIP Kosty. Last edited by bruceames; 06-28-2007 at 08:10 PM.

06-28-2007, 08:08 PM	#130
bruceames Super Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: Novato, CA Posts: 15,524	Well said, PFC5. I really like the twin format idea, and Boby, you and I seem to see eye to eye on the concept. Integration, rather than competition with DVD, is what the average consumer will want...and will choose in the end. HD DVD in this respect is the best format for the consumer and Blu-ray has already made it clear more than once that they aim to wipe out DVD. Somehow I don't see that in the consumer's best interests. __________________ RIP Kosty.

06-29-2007, 04:19 AM	#133
Buford_Pusser Authentic DVD below! Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 198	The Sony http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE21Bb4tWS4 LOL __________________ & IN THE END..... Anamorphic 16.9 Mastered in HD IS THE WINNER! Plays on all players! Last edited by Buford_Pusser; 06-29-2007 at 04:40 AM.

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06-28-2007, 06:33 AM	#127
MikeRox Connoisseur of Fine Games Join Date: May 2007 Location: Huddersfield, United Kingdom Posts: 15,756	Is it that the picture quality is getting worse? Or that expectations from HD releases is increasing?

06-28-2007, 08:22 PM	#131
Lee Stewart Muscle Cars Forever! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 35,092	Does everyone remember this from April - the Sony report that showed sales by title: http://www.thedigitalbits.com/files/...port031807.zip Well The Fifth Element was supposed to be a bad transfer yet according to this chart it was in the top 10 of sales, selling almost 22,000 copies at the time. So this whole PQ thing - how objective is it? If "everyone" knew TFE was bad - and Sony even admitted it by making history by replacing, on a free exchange (never been done before with a non-defect movie) yet all those people bought it. So is there some "fanboy" reviewing going on as has been suggested?

06-29-2007, 04:31 AM	#135
brianh High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,023	I just saw on CNBC that Blockbuster is going to close 282 stores this year. I put this in another thread and I apologize for that, moderators.