Anyone else hearing Blu Ray is worse than HD DVD?

hidefman30 · 06-23-2006, 09:03 PM

Ok I have read a few posts now saying that Blu Ray is not as good as HD DVD in image quality. Can anyone verify that? Frankly I am very surprised as much money and quality as I have seen in Sony technologies. I have heard that HD DVD movies generally surpass broadcast satellite in image quality. Which is good news and makes it worth while. However now, with news of Blu Ray being below par with HD DVD, yet players are more expensive make me start to doubt it's future. Even though I had once thouth that PS3 would make Blu Ray outlast HD DVD. I was actually holding out for a PS3 and not buying an HD DVD player, as I thought it would be the better looking format, plus a next gen game console. Perhpas I should consider the Toshiba HD DVD now.

tvine2000 · 06-23-2006, 10:28 PM

the video quality of bd is the same as hddvd,the issue with the samsung player is the hdmi output which when connected there the video shows scaleing. so the picture is crap.so for now you hook up with compont and the picture looks great.the other issue is the discs ,they suck.i dont know why you guys cry the blues,these formats are new so issues will come up.i agree bluray is blowing it . both formats are not getting any help from retailers!,bb put the hd display away being replaced with the bd display and the bb i went to didnt even have player on and working. nobody seems interested. i said all along both formats could die off in the end. thats im saving my money and enjoy sddvd for now. some people on this site must have money to burn. if i was to bet on a format hddvd would do it for me,besides microsoft is more powerful then you might thing and bill gates doesnt like to lose and gets his way. hd will prevail bd i dont know. the main thing is the studios,if theres no interest out here you can kiss both formats goodbye and if lets say hd wins out all the studios that back bd will jump ship. its about money mates and noting else. if i was bd and hd id be doing anything to get retailers promoteing my products.there may be a fomat war going on but i dont hear any guns shots.

rockaway1836 · 06-24-2006, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hidefman30

Ok I have read a few posts now saying that Blu Ray is not as good as HD DVD in image quality. Can anyone verify that? Frankly I am very surprised as much money and quality as I have seen in Sony technologies. I have heard that HD DVD movies generally surpass broadcast satellite in image quality. Which is good news and makes it worth while. However now, with news of Blu Ray being below par with HD DVD, yet players are more expensive make me start to doubt it's future. Even though I had once thouth that PS3 would make Blu Ray outlast HD DVD. I was actually holding out for a PS3 and not buying an HD DVD player, as I thought it would be the better looking format, plus a next gen game console. Perhpas I should consider the Toshiba HD DVD now.

Here's my short history with the Sammy. Keep in mind we are just over a week since it hit the shelves. The introduction of HD-DVD at the same time frame was not exactly flawless either. If or when they get it fixed I will buy another. It's just at this point I figure the $1000 is better off back in my pocket than CC's or Sammy's

nyboy11 · 06-24-2006, 11:08 PM

yea

mfabien · 06-26-2006, 05:51 AM

Those of you considering buying a BD player or have one and are hoping for picture quality improvements to match an HD DVD player, read the following:

http://tv-technology.com/features/Me...02.02.05.shtml

With VC-1, HD DVD player saves 3.8:1 in compression vs MPEG-2.

Whether Sony will make an about turn and one day enable VC-1 encoding is unclear. What appears to be quite certain, if we can trust people who have both players side by side, is that the BD player does not match the HD DVD quality for HD images most of the time.

Will Sony introduce their player in October with VC-1 enabled? If so, in the meantime, Samsung is getting shafted big time.

rockaway1836 · 06-26-2006, 07:06 AM

The Samsung player already specs out for VC-1 It's the movies (so far) that are using MPEG2.
http://www.samsung.com/Products/Blu_...D_P1000XAA.asp

mfabien · 06-26-2006, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockaway1836

The Samsung player already specs out for VC-1 It's the movies (so far) that are using MPEG2.
http://www.samsung.com/Products/Blu_...D_P1000XAA.asp

With the present single layer BR disc, I guess MPEG-2 is the only choice for the studios. However, one movie producer was stating that MPEG-2 was a good choice because it enables to reproduce noise from film...

It is said, elsewhere (AVS threads), that Sony doesn't like to idea of using Microsoft's VC-1 technology (Microsoft now in the Toshiba camp). I have trouble believing that Sony would place pride over self interest and give little credence to that argument.

Therefore, will the use of VC-1 come about with dual layer disc's? I understand Sony has trouble manufacturing the dual layer disc's. But is that the reason for the holdup on the use of VC-1?

No matter the reasons, above, I think Samsung is getting a rough deal. They have invested in the BD machines and they will more than likely stay on the shelves (not saying it's their fault).

rockaway1836 · 06-26-2006, 09:02 AM

I have been reading what's going on at AVS. It's a bloody feeding fenzy!

Samsung added a link for software upgrades (when available) I hope it's just a question of an upgrade to solve the problems. I have been seeing reports that it plays better using Component than HDMI. I didn't keep mine long enough to confirm this though. I know for a fact that they have handshake issues with some 1080P sets.

**PFC5** · 06-26-2006, 12:13 PM

Sony has been publically stating that MPEG2 is better than VC1 and the tools are better. I think Sony counted on getting DL BD discs working by now, but even if they did, their 50GB capacity would about equal the 30GB capacity of HD-DVD DL discs since HD-DVD is using VC1.

I doubt Sony will change to VC1, and they will probably continue using MPEG2 even while still using SL BD discs. Why do you think BB stopped using the actual movies to show off the Sasmung player? The demo still looks bad IMO, but they are most likely using bitrates higher than what REAL WORLD bitrates can be with actual movies.

stchman · 06-26-2006, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tvine2000

the video quality of bd is the same as hddvd,the issue with the samsung player is the hdmi output which when connected there the video shows scaleing. so the picture is crap.so for now you hook up with compont and the picture looks great.the other issue is the discs ,they suck.i dont know why you guys cry the blues,these formats are new so issues will come up.i agree bluray is blowing it . both formats are not getting any help from retailers!,bb put the hd display away being replaced with the bd display and the bb i went to didnt even have player on and working. nobody seems interested. i said all along both formats could die off in the end. thats im saving my money and enjoy sddvd for now. some people on this site must have money to burn. if i was to bet on a format hddvd would do it for me,besides microsoft is more powerful then you might thing and bill gates doesnt like to lose and gets his way. hd will prevail bd i dont know. the main thing is the studios,if theres no interest out here you can kiss both formats goodbye and if lets say hd wins out all the studios that back bd will jump ship. its about money mates and noting else. if i was bd and hd id be doing anything to get retailers promoteing my products.there may be a fomat war going on but i dont hear any guns shots.

If you hook up a BluRay player via component you wont get HD. The player scales down the image to 576p instead of 720p or 1080p over component. This is because of the HDCP.

BigDaddyKev79 · 06-26-2006, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stchman

If you hook up a BluRay player via component you wont get HD. The player scales down the image to 576p instead of 720p or 1080p over component. This is because of the HDCP.

Not true at all......

the only time an HD disc from either camp will be downsampled is if the ICT flag is operable, and it will be 2010-2012 before we see any discs with ICT enabled, this applies to Blu-ray and HD-DVD....

Hmerly · 06-26-2006, 06:33 PM

Sadly, it is true. Sony's PR department once again promised something their technical department could not match. Blu-Ray PQ is so far easily outclassed by HD-DVD. Some people think the movies out so far are only marginally better than upconverted regular DVDs. It is sad that something twice as much can't produce an image nearly as good. Some feel its Sony's use of MPEG2, which is a much older codec, whereas HD-DVDs have all been released using the much newer VC1 codec from Microsoft. Some point to the fact that Blu-Ray discs are only single layered (25gig) as Sony is having problems manufacturing double layered (50gig) discs. The single reason everyone's been saying BD is superior to HD-DVD has so far, been shown to be another PR gamble on the part of Sony. Others think its just the Samsung player, and maybe firmware updates could help (unlikely). However, it really doesn't matter to me as no amount of apologizing from BD fans can convince me what my eyes tell. HD-DVD looks much nicer than BD so far. Promises that BD will improve in the future is just getting so old now. First it was WAIT TIL BD IS RELEASED, now its WAIT TIL BD USES VC1 or WAIT TIL DOUBLE LAYERED BD DISCS ARE OUT. Anyways, I'm tired of waiting, and tired of Sony.

**PFC5** · 06-26-2006, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stchman

If you hook up a BluRay player via component you wont get HD. The player scales down the image to 576p instead of 720p or 1080p over component. This is because of the HDCP.

The reason that he stated this about using the Component output is because Bill Hunt of The Digitalbits (seems to be a BD supporter) has taken back his poor review of the Samsung. We can all speculate WHY, but he says it is because most of the problems are with the HDMI output. None of the indepth reviewers/testers that are well know (from Secrets Benchmark, etc) has seen the miraculous improvement using component that Bill Hunt has seen.

But the Samsung can actually it can go as high as 1080i (not p) over Samsung's component output with a BD movie, but it will only do 480p using component with a SD DVD movie. There is no upscaling over component output with SD DVDs per the DVD Forum specs. Some Chinese mfg of SD DVD players have ignored this, but Samsung is following the SD DVD spec.

I think what you are talking about is AACS (not HDCP only used on digital connections), which allows (per the studio's demands) something called ICT, which COULD cut the resolution to 960x540 IF the studio implements it on any movie discs. None have so far but they could without notice.

One of the problems with the Samsung BD player is it was originally a 1080i maximum output device, but when BDA started the "1080p is 'true HD'" campaign to cloud the issue with this proven red herring, Samsung decided to add it into their "after the design fact".

This is causing the Samsung to take the 1080p/24Fps data on the movie discs and the original design converts it to 1080i, then the Mickey Mouse after thought design (using the after thought Faroudja chip) brings it back 1080p.

The Samsung is broken on many levels, but the most noticable problem is the BD movie discs currently released themselves. Samsung is falling on the sword for Sony since Sony delayed their own BD player release AGAIN to "On or about 10/25/06". Funny how the inventor of the technology will not even have a player out until 4 months AFTER the format debuts.

**PFC5** · 06-26-2006, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDaddyKev79

Not true at all......

the only time an HD disc from either camp will be downsampled is if the ICT flag is operable, and it will be 2010-2012 before we see any discs with ICT enabled, this applies to Blu-ray and HD-DVD....

Actually, the studios can implement ICT anytime they want. Sony has something to the effect that they will not implement it in the "foreseeable future", but that means little right now. There have been rumors of some backroom deal between the studios and the CE mfg, to not implement it until 2010, 2011, or 2012.

Even the date it will be implemented in the rumors vary, so I wouldn't count on it to be true. I think the studios would be fools to implement it EVER, but we already know them to be fools don't we? That is why I call them collectively as follywood.

rockaway1836 · 06-26-2006, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

The reason that he stated this about using the Component output is because Bill Hunt of The Digitalbits (seems to be a BD supporter) has taken back his poor review of the Samsung. We can all speculate WHY, but he says it is because most of the problems are with the HDMI output. None of the indepth reviewers/testers that are well know (from Secrets Benchmark, etc) has seen the miraculous improvement using component that Bill Hunt has seen.

But the Samsung can actually it can go as high as 1080i (not p) over Samsung's component output with a BD movie, but it will only do 480p using component with a SD DVD movie. There is no upscaling over component output with SD DVDs per the DVD Forum specs. Some Chinese mfg of SD DVD players have ignored this, but Samsung is following the SD DVD spec.

I think what you are talking about is AACS (not HDCP only used on digital connections), which allows (per the studio's demands) something called ICT, which COULD cut the resolution to 960x540 IF the studio implements it on any movie discs. None have so far but they could without notice.

One of the problems with the Samsung BD player is it was originally a 1080i maximum output device, but when BDA started the "1080p is 'true HD'" campaign to cloud the issue with this proven red herring, Samsung decided to add it into their "after the design fact".

This is causing the Samsung to take the 1080p/24Fps data on the movie discs and the original design converts it to 1080i, then the Mickey Mouse after thought design (using the after thought Faroudja chip) brings it back 1080p.

The Samsung is broken on many levels, but the most noticable problem is the BD movie discs currently released themselves. Samsung is falling on the sword for Sony since Sony delayed their own BD player release AGAIN to "On or about 10/25/06". Funny how the inventor of the technology will not even have a player out until 4 months AFTER the format debuts.

No doubt about it, this debut is not helping Sony, Samsung, or Blu-Ray in general. I just wish they didn't rush these things to market before they were ready for prime time. I'm not just talking abut Samsung and Sony here. Toshiba was a bit quick on the trigger with their's as well. The good thing is we have forums like this to share info on what's going on. Although sometimes I wonder what motivates some to just slam whichever company they don't happen to like. Some people hate Sony others hate Microsoft. Why? I don't know. And I don't really care. It just makes it a bit harder to sift through the BS and get to the truth.
On a side note I do have a little info to pass on. I got a call today from Samsung. They were following up on the 1080P HDMI handshake issue that I reported to them late last week. The gentleman I spoke with told me thet were going to have a meeting today about this problem and try to figure out a solution. He could not however, give me a time frame for a fix.

06-23-2006, 09:03 PM	#1
hidefman30 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 733	Anyone else hearing Blu Ray is worse than HD DVD? Ok I have read a few posts now saying that Blu Ray is not as good as HD DVD in image quality. Can anyone verify that? Frankly I am very surprised as much money and quality as I have seen in Sony technologies. I have heard that HD DVD movies generally surpass broadcast satellite in image quality. Which is good news and makes it worth while. However now, with news of Blu Ray being below par with HD DVD, yet players are more expensive make me start to doubt it's future. Even though I had once thouth that PS3 would make Blu Ray outlast HD DVD. I was actually holding out for a PS3 and not buying an HD DVD player, as I thought it would be the better looking format, plus a next gen game console. Perhpas I should consider the Toshiba HD DVD now. __________________ 55" Hitachi Plasma Sony Dvd Carousel Sony Reciever JBL Speakers Velodyne Sub Xbox 360 PS3

06-26-2006, 05:51 AM	#5
mfabien High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,087	Those of you considering buying a BD player or have one and are hoping for picture quality improvements to match an HD DVD player, read the following: http://tv-technology.com/features/Me...02.02.05.shtml With VC-1, HD DVD player saves 3.8:1 in compression vs MPEG-2. Whether Sony will make an about turn and one day enable VC-1 encoding is unclear. What appears to be quite certain, if we can trust people who have both players side by side, is that the BD player does not match the HD DVD quality for HD images most of the time. Will Sony introduce their player in October with VC-1 enabled? If so, in the meantime, Samsung is getting shafted big time. __________________ Samsung LN52B750, SA8300HD, Energy speakers, Yamaha RX-V540, SVS PB12-ISD, Harmony 880, HD-A1, BDP-1400, Oppo DV-970HD, Zektor HDS4.1

06-26-2006, 12:13 PM	#9
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 28,331	Sony has been publically stating that MPEG2 is better than VC1 and the tools are better. I think Sony counted on getting DL BD discs working by now, but even if they did, their 50GB capacity would about equal the 30GB capacity of HD-DVD DL discs since HD-DVD is using VC1. I doubt Sony will change to VC1, and they will probably continue using MPEG2 even while still using SL BD discs. Why do you think BB stopped using the actual movies to show off the Sasmung player? The demo still looks bad IMO, but they are most likely using bitrates higher than what REAL WORLD bitrates can be with actual movies. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier

06-23-2006, 10:28 PM	#2
tvine2000 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: vermont Posts: 902	the video quality of bd is the same as hddvd,the issue with the samsung player is the hdmi output which when connected there the video shows scaleing. so the picture is crap.so for now you hook up with compont and the picture looks great.the other issue is the discs ,they suck.i dont know why you guys cry the blues,these formats are new so issues will come up.i agree bluray is blowing it . both formats are not getting any help from retailers!,bb put the hd display away being replaced with the bd display and the bb i went to didnt even have player on and working. nobody seems interested. i said all along both formats could die off in the end. thats im saving my money and enjoy sddvd for now. some people on this site must have money to burn. if i was to bet on a format hddvd would do it for me,besides microsoft is more powerful then you might thing and bill gates doesnt like to lose and gets his way. hd will prevail bd i dont know. the main thing is the studios,if theres no interest out here you can kiss both formats goodbye and if lets say hd wins out all the studios that back bd will jump ship. its about money mates and noting else. if i was bd and hd id be doing anything to get retailers promoteing my products.there may be a fomat war going on but i dont hear any guns shots.

06-24-2006, 11:08 PM	#4
nyboy11 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 363	yea

06-26-2006, 07:06 AM	#6
rockaway1836 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: May 2005 Location: Myrtle Beach SC Posts: 1,035	The Samsung player already specs out for VC-1 It's the movies (so far) that are using MPEG2. http://www.samsung.com/Products/Blu_...D_P1000XAA.asp

06-26-2006, 09:02 AM	#8
rockaway1836 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: May 2005 Location: Myrtle Beach SC Posts: 1,035	I have been reading what's going on at AVS. It's a bloody feeding fenzy! Samsung added a link for software upgrades (when available) I hope it's just a question of an upgrade to solve the problems. I have been seeing reports that it plays better using Component than HDMI. I didn't keep mine long enough to confirm this though. I know for a fact that they have handshake issues with some 1080P sets.

06-26-2006, 06:33 PM	#12
Hmerly My plasma is High Def. Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 9	Sadly, it is true. Sony's PR department once again promised something their technical department could not match. Blu-Ray PQ is so far easily outclassed by HD-DVD. Some people think the movies out so far are only marginally better than upconverted regular DVDs. It is sad that something twice as much can't produce an image nearly as good. Some feel its Sony's use of MPEG2, which is a much older codec, whereas HD-DVDs have all been released using the much newer VC1 codec from Microsoft. Some point to the fact that Blu-Ray discs are only single layered (25gig) as Sony is having problems manufacturing double layered (50gig) discs. The single reason everyone's been saying BD is superior to HD-DVD has so far, been shown to be another PR gamble on the part of Sony. Others think its just the Samsung player, and maybe firmware updates could help (unlikely). However, it really doesn't matter to me as no amount of apologizing from BD fans can convince me what my eyes tell. HD-DVD looks much nicer than BD so far. Promises that BD will improve in the future is just getting so old now. First it was WAIT TIL BD IS RELEASED, now its WAIT TIL BD USES VC1 or WAIT TIL DOUBLE LAYERED BD DISCS ARE OUT. Anyways, I'm tired of waiting, and tired of Sony.