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The movie Red on Blu-ray question

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Old 01-30-2011, 06:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard View Post
I haven't heard of this being done before. It is obviously a cost cutting measure to make the barebones version as inexpensive as possible. It should be clearly stated on the case when this is done although just correctly listing audio codecs on the back cover meets the buyer beware caviat. The lower video bitrate needed to fit the encode on a 25GB disc if true is more troubling than using lossy audio in my opinion.

Could this be the shortage of BD50 discs I often read about here a few years ago instead of cost cutting? I would certainly rent this version rather than the DVD regardless.
The problem is that Amazon is not very good about properly listing the audio codecs used on BD movies and most times I have checked they just seem to copy over the SD DVD audio specs to the BD listing. It would cause me to buy fewer BD movies if this becomes the "norm". Who the hell wants to research audio tracks for each version of a movie before you buy it online? sure do not want to do that.
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:39 PM   #17
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Watched this today, very disappointed in the AQ situation being only D 5.1 vs HDMA as the sound track had some great passages on it. the PQ was good and it was a Fun type of movie, especially if your a John Malkovich fan. I'm pissed that I bought this movie without the knowledge of it's "sound" discrepancy.
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Old 02-03-2011, 09:10 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by PFC5 View Post
The problem is that Amazon is not very good about properly listing the audio codecs used on BD movies and most times I have checked they just seem to copy over the SD DVD audio specs to the BD listing. It would cause me to buy fewer BD movies if this becomes the "norm". Who the hell wants to research audio tracks for each version of a movie before you buy it online? sure do not want to do that.
I find this very funny, for years you advocated a format that didn't use lossless audio very often for the very reason this release didn't, disc capacity and/or bitrate couldn't accomodate it. It was my choice to assume with HD DVD that the audio would not be lossless since lossy was far more common and then be pleasantly surprised when lossless was used.

I expect lossless from all of the major Blu-ray studios now but know to research Summit and the lesser studios. If that is too difficult, there really isn't a solution but we can be certain lossless audio will be used a big majority of the time with Blu-ray.
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Old 02-03-2011, 06:39 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard View Post
I find this very funny, for years you advocated a format that didn't use lossless audio very often for the very reason this release didn't, disc capacity and/or bitrate couldn't accomodate it. It was my choice to assume with HD DVD that the audio would not be lossless since lossy was far more common and then be pleasantly surprised when lossless was used.

I expect lossless from all of the major Blu-ray studios now but know to research Summit and the lesser studios. If that is too difficult, there really isn't a solution but we can be certain lossless audio will be used a big majority of the time with Blu-ray.
Your assumption that HD DVD didn't use lossless because of space issues is false. AFAIK, the only title that perhaps DD+ 1500 kbps was used instead of Dolby True HD, was Transformers. And Transformers HD DVD, with its DD+ at 1500 kpbs, is transparent to the master. You're not going to hear any difference between it and the lossless BD.

I have detailed disc specs of hundreds of HD DVD titles that I researched myself, and very few of them come even close to capacity. And in case you forget, a large percentage of Blu-ray movies back then didn't have lossless either.

It was a studio decision whether to include it or not, and nothing more.

Last edited by bruceames; 02-03-2011 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 02-04-2011, 09:15 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard View Post
I find this very funny, for years you advocated a format that didn't use lossless audio very often for the very reason this release didn't, disc capacity and/or bitrate couldn't accomodate it. It was my choice to assume with HD DVD that the audio would not be lossless since lossy was far more common and then be pleasantly surprised when lossless was used.

I expect lossless from all of the major Blu-ray studios now but know to research Summit and the lesser studios. If that is too difficult, there really isn't a solution but we can be certain lossless audio will be used a big majority of the time with Blu-ray.
See what Bruce said below. Also I might add that DD+ @ 1500kbps is so much better than standard DD 5.1 which is limited to only 448kbps. We are talking about a huge difference going from standard DD5.1 to the high bit-rate DD+, and a much smaller and likely not heard difference going from DD+ to lossless.

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Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
Your assumption that HD DVD didn't use lossless because of space issues is false. AFAIK, the only title that perhaps DD+ 1500 kbps was used instead of Dolby True HD, was Transformers. And Transformers HD DVD, with its DD+ at 1500 kpbs, is transparent to the master. You're not going to hear any difference between it and the lossless BD.

I have detailed disc specs of hundreds of HD DVD titles that I researched myself, and very few of them come even close to capacity. And in case you forget, a large percentage of Blu-ray movies back then didn't have lossless either.

It was a studio decision whether to include it or not, and nothing more.
Exactly Bruce! If we are going to talk about a lot of early HD DVD titles only using DD+ then the early BD titles looked like crap for video using mpeg2 highly compressed and also didn't have great audio all the time either. Both formats evolved as the studios adjusted for the new formats and near the end HD DVD had most with lossless audio as well. It was a studio decision on a space decision. We also have to remember that BD as a format has continued to evolve and improve and because HD DVD died, it never continued to improve like BD has. So comparing BD now to HD DVD back then is not a fair comparison.

Heck in some respects it appears BD is moving backwards recently with the forced trailers (lets blame the format instead of the studios for that as well ), and now lately it seems they are mixing the dialog too low on the DTS-HD MA soundtracks so you have to turn the center channel up to hear the dialog in proper proportion to the rest of the soundtrack. The earlier DTS MA tracks were not like this, so lets blame the format for that instead of the studios who are making these decisions.

Now we have them going back to low bit-rate DD5.1 on some and whereas Amazon doesn't properly list the correct soundtracks for BD titles and mostly just copies over the SD DVD info we are buying blind.
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Old 02-04-2011, 09:32 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by bruceames View Post
Your assumption that HD DVD didn't use lossless because of space issues is false. AFAIK, the only title that perhaps DD+ 1500 kbps was used instead of Dolby True HD, was Transformers. And Transformers HD DVD, with its DD+ at 1500 kpbs, is transparent to the master. You're not going to hear any difference between it and the lossless BD.

I have detailed disc specs of hundreds of HD DVD titles that I researched myself, and very few of them come even close to capacity. And in case you forget, a large percentage of Blu-ray movies back then didn't have lossless either.

It was a studio decision whether to include it or not, and nothing more.
Capacity isn't the only consideration, the maximum bitrate of 30Mbps prevented using lossless audio with HD DVD. Blu-ray encodes with lossless audio usually peak above 40Mbps. Before the format war ended Blu-ray was at about 70% of releases using lossless audio and HD DVD at about 30%. Blu-ray has gone up from there despite companies like Echo Bridge and Summit and a couple of others releasing budget titles without lossless audio.

My assumption didn't include the reason that it was solely because of space so no, my assumption was not incorrect. You can choose to believe that HD DVD releases didn't use lossless audio despite no specification constraints if you want, but that is pretty silly.
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Old 02-04-2011, 09:35 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by PFC5 View Post
See what Bruce said below. Also I might add that DD+ @ 1500kbps is so much better than standard DD 5.1 which is limited to only 448kbps. We are talking about a huge difference going from standard DD5.1 to the high bit-rate DD+, and a much smaller and likely not heard difference going from DD+ to lossless.



Exactly Bruce! If we are going to talk about a lot of early HD DVD titles only using DD+ then the early BD titles looked like crap for video using mpeg2 highly compressed and also didn't have great audio all the time either. Both formats evolved as the studios adjusted for the new formats and near the end HD DVD had most with lossless audio as well. It was a studio decision on a space decision. We also have to remember that BD as a format has continued to evolve and improve and because HD DVD died, it never continued to improve like BD has. So comparing BD now to HD DVD back then is not a fair comparison.

Heck in some respects it appears BD is moving backwards recently with the forced trailers (lets blame the format instead of the studios for that as well ), and now lately it seems they are mixing the dialog too low on the DTS-HD MA soundtracks so you have to turn the center channel up to hear the dialog in proper proportion to the rest of the soundtrack. The earlier DTS MA tracks were not like this, so lets blame the format for that instead of the studios who are making these decisions.

Now we have them going back to low bit-rate DD5.1 on some and whereas Amazon doesn't properly list the correct soundtracks for BD titles and mostly just copies over the SD DVD info we are buying blind.
Exactly wrong, read my response to Bruce for something that is based on the reality, not more nonsense.
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Old 02-04-2011, 06:00 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard View Post
Capacity isn't the only consideration, the maximum bitrate of 30Mbps prevented using lossless audio with HD DVD. Blu-ray encodes with lossless audio usually peak above 40Mbps. Before the format war ended Blu-ray was at about 70% of releases using lossless audio and HD DVD at about 30%. Blu-ray has gone up from there despite companies like Echo Bridge and Summit and a couple of others releasing budget titles without lossless audio.

My assumption didn't include the reason that it was solely because of space so no, my assumption was not incorrect. You can choose to believe that HD DVD releases didn't use lossless audio despite no specification constraints if you want, but that is pretty silly.
Wrong again. Where you are getting these falsehoods is beyond me. The very first HD DVD released (Phantom of the Opera) was lossless. There are all told over 200 lossless HD DVD titles all told, so that bitrate restriction obviously didn't affect them.

And just so others who read this know: lossless is lossless. There is no such thing as grades of lossless. 40mbps lossless is the same as 30mbps lossless. True Hd lossless is the same as Master audio lossless. That's why they call it "lossless".

I am still clueless as to why you even decided to bring up HD DVD in the first place. PFC5's concern was with consistency in video/audio specs among like Blu-ray titles. It had nothing to do with HD DVD whatsoever. Could you please explain where you are going with this?
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Old 02-05-2011, 11:10 AM   #24
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Nothing I have said is a falsehood. Check peak bitrates for HD DVD releases and you will often see peaks too high to permit lossless audio, so the choice is a lesser quality video encode or no lossless audio. My statement didn't claim that no HD DVD release could use lossless audio, only that the bitrate constraint did cause it. If it happened once, my statement is correct.

His inconsistent complaint that Blu-ray might not use lossless audio after years of advocating HD DVD which rarely used it was the basis of my post, which is what I stated. I just stated facts, HD DVD was constrained by capacity and maximum bitrate from using lossless audio on many releases, to believe otherwise is rather silly. Just look at the extremely high percentage of releases that use it on Blu-ray, and a majority couldn't be encoded in the same manner on HD DVD, not even close, the releases go beyond 30 GB and/or 30 Mbps almost everytime.

You might consider changing your signature indicating number of blueray dvds owned to number of Blu-ray discs owned or something actually correct. As is, it appears to be a deliberate misstatement, maybe not unlike the rest of misstatements you have made here.

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blueray DVDs owned: 115
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Old 02-05-2011, 02:32 PM   #25
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Nothing I have said is a falsehood. Check peak bitrates for HD DVD releases and you will often see peaks too high to permit lossless audio, so the choice is a lesser quality video encode or no lossless audio. My statement didn't claim that no HD DVD release could use lossless audio, only that the bitrate constraint did cause it. If it happened once, my statement is correct.

His inconsistent complaint that Blu-ray might not use lossless audio after years of advocating HD DVD which rarely used it was the basis of my post, which is what I stated. I just stated facts, HD DVD was constrained by capacity and maximum bitrate from using lossless audio on many releases, to believe otherwise is rather silly. Just look at the extremely high percentage of releases that use it on Blu-ray, and a majority couldn't be encoded in the same manner on HD DVD, not even close, the releases go beyond 30 GB and/or 30 Mbps almost everytime.

You might consider changing your signature indicating number of blueray dvds owned to number of Blu-ray discs owned or something actually correct. As is, it appears to be a deliberate misstatement, maybe not unlike the rest of misstatements you have made here.
That is completely false. Any HD DVD can have lossless if they choose to encode it as such. Saying that it's not possible on many releases because of bitrate limitations is ridiculous and since you made the claim, I call you on your BS.

Show us a reputable link that backs up your claim.
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