Whose more to blame for not avoiding this HD war, Toshiba or Sony.

brian451 · 10-18-2007, 02:01 PM

Clearly both sides couldn't come to an agreement because one or both were being stubborn. Who made the greater mistake in not making an offer the other couldn't refuse? It obviously comes down to money.

My first thought is that Sony got greedy and thought that their product was so superior that they wouldn't have to pay any attention to Toshiba, much less buy them out of the game. Of course Toshiba might have been greedy in asking for too much money to abandon their product. Whichever the case, it seems to me that they both made a bad decision at some point but at first glance I think Sony deserves more of the blame because they had more to lose and couldnt afford to abandon bluray at any cost.

paulc · 10-19-2007, 10:14 AM

I assign 100% of the blame to... both of them equally. AND to their respective rabid fanbois who do nothing more than encourage each side to prolong the "war."

Loves2Watch · 10-19-2007, 01:08 PM

I blame Sony for their very restrictive, control issues codecs and their inability to work with Toshiba who was at the table many times to try to come to some sort of agreement. It seems that these two leaders of their respective HD camps can never seem to work things out. Sony always wants to be the patent holder of technology along with their partner Philips. Just look at compact cassette, CD's and yes even beta. They are the patent holders of these technologies and as such have affected the way consumers watch and listen to most media today. So I say a big boo to Sony and am not pleased with Toshiba as well. But it seems to me that Sony just wants to stop any other companies technological innovations.

anythingwt · 10-19-2007, 01:18 PM

I love the war, and whoever it is to blame I would like to thank them. If it wasn't for the war I highly doubt prices for HD content would have been driven down as fast as they have so far. Both camps are getting more affordable with announcements all the time of more affordable players and sales for one format or the other. I just hope the war doesn't end in a stalemate phasing out both formats. That would be the only negative to all of this if that ends up the case.

Loves2Watch · 10-19-2007, 03:15 PM

And if that new HD video technology (VMD I believe) takes hold, it may drop prices even further.

Lee Stewart · 10-19-2007, 03:26 PM

The DVD Forum selected HD DVD as the official next generation High Definition DVD.

So you tell me. . .

Quote:

The HD DVD standard was jointly developed by Toshiba and NEC.[3] On 19 November 2003, the DVD Forum voted to support HD DVD as the high definition successor of the standard DVD. At this meeting, they also renamed it HD DVD. The format had previously been called the "Advanced Optical Disc" (AOD).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD

Chris Gerhard · 10-22-2007, 04:09 AM

I am certainly not benefitting from the format war and certainly neither is anybody else that has purchased both formats. Based on the simple fact that a majority of hardware manufacturers and software providers are exclusively Blu-ray and the fact Blu-ray is dominating the tiny market that resulted because there is a format war, Toshiba deserves the blame for the mess that we have. It will be funny to see if HD VMD confuses consumers more and things get worse. Most consumers that see HD VMD won't know there are two HD disc formats starting with HD and followed by three letters and will think they are the same. The tiny online group that is gung ho for HD DVD is all the market that exists for the product. It is a complete and total bomb in the marketplace otherwise and that group isn't enough to overcome the reluctance and confusion that has resulted from having two formats.

Chris

Loves2Watch · 10-22-2007, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard

Based on the simple fact that a majority of hardware manufacturers and software providers are exclusively Blu-ray and the fact Blu-ray is dominating the tiny market that resulted because there is a format war, Toshiba deserves the blame for the mess that we have. Chris

Really? Since Microsoft, HP and many others have adopted HD-DVD, I don't know where you get this incorrect information.

BobY · 10-22-2007, 08:14 PM

*Sigh*

Hey, I'll paraphrase myself:

If HD DVD is bombing out, then Blu-Ray is bombing out and if Blu-Ray is doing acceptably, then HD DVD is doing acceptably.

I'm really intrigued regarding the sales of "Transformers". More than any HD movie before it, this could clearly demonstrate to the studios that with the incredibly high attach rate of HD DVD you can sell a lot of a single HD DVD disc and even if BD manages as an aggregate to outsell Transformers for the week, it will just show that even when BD total sales are stong, sales of individual BD titles are pathetic.

Oh, and once again Chris, you ignore the fact that there are over two million BD (PS3) owner's who are not reluctant, not confused and obviously not buying BD discs...When are you going to give up this ludicrous notion that the format "war" is holding BD back from major success? Millions more players already in consumers hands and BD is still stuck a year later "dominating" the market with 1.5 times the sales of HD DVD

360kid · 10-22-2007, 09:01 PM

Here is a perspective. Sony was the first one in developement. Sony along with affiliates began in 2002. Toshiba was a part of this. Toshiba along with several others were doubting the need for a blue laser and split from the project. Once Toshiba realized that the standard DVD was not good enough, they began their own blue laser project.

Sooo... by that bit of history, it seems Toshiba is the defector and instigator of the war.

Here is another way of looking at it. Sony was the first to developement, but, Toshiba was the first to market.

So who is to blame.... I say who cares.

Mike in Philly · 10-24-2007, 08:32 PM

There is no one to "blame". Both companies developed their "own" format/technology. Probably because they were proud of their work and thankfully we have a free market. Should Apple and the Linux groups stop coming out with new versions of their respective operating systems because Microsoft(R) currently (and I do stress currently) owns the majority of desktops?? It is also interesting to me that JVC (the inventor of the now obsolete vhs family) seems to be lost in the shuffle...I could not tell you the last time I saw a JVC product in the major retail stores. Both Toshiba and Sony think they saw the future with the higher capacity plastic disc and they want "their" version to be exclusive. It's simple business and pride. Looking at the hardware support and studio support for blu-ray, it's hard for me to have any great expectations for HD-DVD as it currently stands. I have nothing against Toshiba. I just question whether they "alone" can be the only hardware vendor for that format. I really have to question that....

oblioman · 10-25-2007, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 360kid

Here is a perspective. Sony was the first one in developement. Sony along with affiliates began in 2002. Toshiba was a part of this. Toshiba along with several others were doubting the need for a blue laser and split from the project. Once Toshiba realized that the standard DVD was not good enough, they began their own blue laser project.

Sooo... by that bit of history, it seems Toshiba is the defector and instigator of the war.

Here is another way of looking at it. Sony was the first to developement, but, Toshiba was the first to market.

So who is to blame.... I say who cares.

Thank You 360kid - me has been blasted on this fine forum for stating such. Sony was first in development with the blue laser, Toshiba merely followed suit. Sony opted not to go with the DVD consortium for a variety of reasons. Number one reason - which we are see'ing today, is that Toshiba wants to hang on to their DVD rights as long as possible. That is their cash cow. If the DVd consortium had opted to be the BD consortium, Toshiba would be defunct as a company, or at least, relegated to making hardware, nothing more. The only way Toshiba is or has been kept viable in this format war is in the HD DVD SA market. Movies only. Sony has HD irons in the fire that Toshiba cannot compete with. Can we say a "TOTAL" HD experience encompassing all aspects of HD!!

SLedford · 10-25-2007, 07:49 AM

It would have been nice if the two parties had worked out their differences on the front end - but they didn't. The reality is that we have a format war (or skirmish, if you throw SD-DVDs into the picture). Assigning blame at this point is pointless.

We don't know how this is all going to turn out.
- BD has not helped themselves with the "evolving standards", particularly when some of the players are not upgradable.
- HD-DVD should get a big boost this Christmas season with the release of sub-$199 players.
- When BD does finally get the standards nailed down (2008 with 2.0?) I will buy a player and have both formats in my house. Something I swore in earlier posts I would never do - was holding out for a DF player.
- If BD had its act together, the war could have been over by now. A sloppy start, expensive players, evolving / changing standards, possible DRM problems with disks that may require regular upgrades (to the machines that can be upgraded), problems with disk production and so on have hurt. The window they had to crush HD-DVD is probably now closed. I think college students will study this "war" in business classes in the future to see how to (and not to) complete in business.

We have two formats now and will probably have two formats till the replacement product comes along in 10 - 20 years. Lets accept this and work on the greater goal, getting Joe Six Pack to buy into high def television. This will benefit all of us as HD television programming and movie releases will accelerate when HD television becomes the norm instead of the exception.

brian451 · 10-25-2007, 08:07 AM

i think the company with the most to loose should have simply bought out the other...plain and simple, everyone wins...at least more than now.

BobY · 10-25-2007, 10:13 AM

They never would have agreed to that.

Sony *could* have submitted Blu-Ray to the DVD Forum as the HD replacement for DVD, but they chose not to. I'm not saying the DVD Forum would necessarily have voted for it (many members were very concerned about the cost, producability and reliability of BD media and it's production incompatibilities with current DVD manufacturing lines), but since they didn't submit it for consideration, we'll never know.

Sony's attitude was Blu-Ray is an entirely unrelated technology that has nothing to do with DVD and there was no reason for the DVD Forum to be involved (or get any of the royalties from the licensing).

Considering Blu-Ray is an optical disc which looks like a DVD, plays videos like a DVD and that Blu-Ray players also play DVD's, I'll leave it to your judgment how "entirely unrelated" it is to DVD--especially from the viewpoint of the consumer.

Both sides want their format to ultimately replace DVD. If that were to happen, the licensing royalties are extraordinary, and pure, unadulterated profit. Nobody could afford to buy out that potential for profit.

BD fans think the DVD Forum should have acknowledged Blu-Ray was the greatest thing since sliced bread and just sat back and let the BDA try to take an enormously profitable business away from them. Right.

The way this could have gone down to the *benefit* of consumers if both formats were realistic about their goals is, HD DVD would be the "CD" of video (mass consumer acceptance through a balance of quality, features and price) and Blu-Ray would be the "SACD" of video (a high-end niche format for those who can only be satisfied by the best specs on paper and the potential for better performance, no matter how small the improvement).

Unfortunately, the BDA's effort to enlist *exclusive* studio support in an effort to shut out competition breaks that model and leaves us with what we have now.

10-18-2007, 02:01 PM	#1
brian451 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 163	Whose more to blame for not avoiding this HD war, Toshiba or Sony. Clearly both sides couldn't come to an agreement because one or both were being stubborn. Who made the greater mistake in not making an offer the other couldn't refuse? It obviously comes down to money. My first thought is that Sony got greedy and thought that their product was so superior that they wouldn't have to pay any attention to Toshiba, much less buy them out of the game. Of course Toshiba might have been greedy in asking for too much money to abandon their product. Whichever the case, it seems to me that they both made a bad decision at some point but at first glance I think Sony deserves more of the blame because they had more to lose and couldnt afford to abandon bluray at any cost.

10-19-2007, 01:08 PM	#3
Loves2Watch SPAM Police Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: AZ, NM, TX, MX Posts: 13,967	I blame Sony for their very restrictive, control issues codecs and their inability to work with Toshiba who was at the table many times to try to come to some sort of agreement. It seems that these two leaders of their respective HD camps can never seem to work things out. Sony always wants to be the patent holder of technology along with their partner Philips. Just look at compact cassette, CD's and yes even beta. They are the patent holders of these technologies and as such have affected the way consumers watch and listen to most media today. So I say a big boo to Sony and am not pleased with Toshiba as well. But it seems to me that Sony just wants to stop any other companies technological innovations. __________________ Theater 1 - Panasonic TH-85PF12U Plasma TV, 6 Conrad Johnson LP275M Amps, Anthem Statement D-2 Pre/Pro, 6 Thiel SCS4 Speakers, 2 REL T-1 Subs, Infinity Interlude 120S Sub, Simaudio MOON Orbiter Universal Disc Player, ELP Laser Turntable, 2 Dish Network ViP 622 DVR's, Oppo BDP-83 Blu-ray Player, Onkyo DV-HD805 HD DVD Player. Friends don't let friends buy Korean brand TV's.

10-19-2007, 01:18 PM	#4
anythingwt one love Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 4,408	I love the war, and whoever it is to blame I would like to thank them. If it wasn't for the war I highly doubt prices for HD content would have been driven down as fast as they have so far. Both camps are getting more affordable with announcements all the time of more affordable players and sales for one format or the other. I just hope the war doesn't end in a stalemate phasing out both formats. That would be the only negative to all of this if that ends up the case. __________________ "your dreams, minus your doubts, equal your reality"

10-19-2007, 03:15 PM	#5
Loves2Watch SPAM Police Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: AZ, NM, TX, MX Posts: 13,967	And if that new HD video technology (VMD I believe) takes hold, it may drop prices even further. __________________ Theater 1 - Panasonic TH-85PF12U Plasma TV, 6 Conrad Johnson LP275M Amps, Anthem Statement D-2 Pre/Pro, 6 Thiel SCS4 Speakers, 2 REL T-1 Subs, Infinity Interlude 120S Sub, Simaudio MOON Orbiter Universal Disc Player, ELP Laser Turntable, 2 Dish Network ViP 622 DVR's, Oppo BDP-83 Blu-ray Player, Onkyo DV-HD805 HD DVD Player. Friends don't let friends buy Korean brand TV's.

10-22-2007, 08:14 PM	#9
BobY What's all this, then?... Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,197	Sigh Hey, I'll paraphrase myself: If HD DVD is bombing out, then Blu-Ray is bombing out and if Blu-Ray is doing acceptably, then HD DVD is doing acceptably. I'm really intrigued regarding the sales of "Transformers". More than any HD movie before it, this could clearly demonstrate to the studios that with the incredibly high attach rate of HD DVD you can sell a lot of a single HD DVD disc and even if BD manages as an aggregate to outsell Transformers for the week, it will just show that even when BD total sales are stong, sales of individual BD titles are pathetic. Oh, and once again Chris, you ignore the fact that there are over two million BD (PS3) owner's who are not reluctant, not confused and obviously not buying BD discs...When are you going to give up this ludicrous notion that the format "war" is holding BD back from major success? Millions more players already in consumers hands and BD is still stuck a year later "dominating" the market with 1.5 times the sales of HD DVD Last edited by BobY; 10-22-2007 at 08:20 PM.

10-19-2007, 10:14 AM	#2
paulc Very Grizzled Vet of 1 yr Join Date: May 2006 Location: New York City Posts: 1,764	I assign 100% of the blame to... both of them equally. AND to their respective rabid fanbois who do nothing more than encourage each side to prolong the "war."

10-22-2007, 04:09 AM	#7
Chris Gerhard High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 8,209	I am certainly not benefitting from the format war and certainly neither is anybody else that has purchased both formats. Based on the simple fact that a majority of hardware manufacturers and software providers are exclusively Blu-ray and the fact Blu-ray is dominating the tiny market that resulted because there is a format war, Toshiba deserves the blame for the mess that we have. It will be funny to see if HD VMD confuses consumers more and things get worse. Most consumers that see HD VMD won't know there are two HD disc formats starting with HD and followed by three letters and will think they are the same. The tiny online group that is gung ho for HD DVD is all the market that exists for the product. It is a complete and total bomb in the marketplace otherwise and that group isn't enough to overcome the reluctance and confusion that has resulted from having two formats. Chris

10-22-2007, 09:01 PM	#10
360kid Life Is Expensive Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 838	Here is a perspective. Sony was the first one in developement. Sony along with affiliates began in 2002. Toshiba was a part of this. Toshiba along with several others were doubting the need for a blue laser and split from the project. Once Toshiba realized that the standard DVD was not good enough, they began their own blue laser project. Sooo... by that bit of history, it seems Toshiba is the defector and instigator of the war. Here is another way of looking at it. Sony was the first to developement, but, Toshiba was the first to market. So who is to blame.... I say who cares. __________________ Hitachi 50" Plasma 1080HD Sharp 32" LCD Toshiba HD-A2 Playstation 3 Xbox 360 Pioneer HTiB Directv HD

10-24-2007, 08:32 PM	#11
Mike in Philly High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 100	There is no one to "blame". Both companies developed their "own" format/technology. Probably because they were proud of their work and thankfully we have a free market. Should Apple and the Linux groups stop coming out with new versions of their respective operating systems because Microsoft(R) currently (and I do stress currently) owns the majority of desktops?? It is also interesting to me that JVC (the inventor of the now obsolete vhs family) seems to be lost in the shuffle...I could not tell you the last time I saw a JVC product in the major retail stores. Both Toshiba and Sony think they saw the future with the higher capacity plastic disc and they want "their" version to be exclusive. It's simple business and pride. Looking at the hardware support and studio support for blu-ray, it's hard for me to have any great expectations for HD-DVD as it currently stands. I have nothing against Toshiba. I just question whether they "alone" can be the only hardware vendor for that format. I really have to question that....

10-25-2007, 07:49 AM	#13
SLedford HD Fan Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Little Rock, Arkansas Posts: 1,023	Facing reality It would have been nice if the two parties had worked out their differences on the front end - but they didn't. The reality is that we have a format war (or skirmish, if you throw SD-DVDs into the picture). Assigning blame at this point is pointless. We don't know how this is all going to turn out. - BD has not helped themselves with the "evolving standards", particularly when some of the players are not upgradable. - HD-DVD should get a big boost this Christmas season with the release of sub-$199 players. - When BD does finally get the standards nailed down (2008 with 2.0?) I will buy a player and have both formats in my house. Something I swore in earlier posts I would never do - was holding out for a DF player. - If BD had its act together, the war could have been over by now. A sloppy start, expensive players, evolving / changing standards, possible DRM problems with disks that may require regular upgrades (to the machines that can be upgraded), problems with disk production and so on have hurt. The window they had to crush HD-DVD is probably now closed. I think college students will study this "war" in business classes in the future to see how to (and not to) complete in business. We have two formats now and will probably have two formats till the replacement product comes along in 10 - 20 years. Lets accept this and work on the greater goal, getting Joe Six Pack to buy into high def television. This will benefit all of us as HD television programming and movie releases will accelerate when HD television becomes the norm instead of the exception. __________________ Toshiba 57H83 television, Paradigm Monitor 5 front speakers, Paradigm CC370 center speaker, Paradigm Mini Monitor surround speakers, Sony subwoofer, Yamaha HRT-5590 receiver, Denon DVD-2800 II, Toshiba HD-DVD A2, Play Station 3 - 40 Gig, Comcast HD Cable

10-25-2007, 08:07 AM	#14
brian451 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 163	i think the company with the most to loose should have simply bought out the other...plain and simple, everyone wins...at least more than now.

10-25-2007, 10:13 AM	#15
BobY What's all this, then?... Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,197	They never would have agreed to that. Sony could have submitted Blu-Ray to the DVD Forum as the HD replacement for DVD, but they chose not to. I'm not saying the DVD Forum would necessarily have voted for it (many members were very concerned about the cost, producability and reliability of BD media and it's production incompatibilities with current DVD manufacturing lines), but since they didn't submit it for consideration, we'll never know. Sony's attitude was Blu-Ray is an entirely unrelated technology that has nothing to do with DVD and there was no reason for the DVD Forum to be involved (or get any of the royalties from the licensing). Considering Blu-Ray is an optical disc which looks like a DVD, plays videos like a DVD and that Blu-Ray players also play DVD's, I'll leave it to your judgment how "entirely unrelated" it is to DVD--especially from the viewpoint of the consumer. Both sides want their format to ultimately replace DVD. If that were to happen, the licensing royalties are extraordinary, and pure, unadulterated profit. Nobody could afford to buy out that potential for profit. BD fans think the DVD Forum should have acknowledged Blu-Ray was the greatest thing since sliced bread and just sat back and let the BDA try to take an enormously profitable business away from them. Right. The way this could have gone down to the benefit of consumers if both formats were realistic about their goals is, HD DVD would be the "CD" of video (mass consumer acceptance through a balance of quality, features and price) and Blu-Ray would be the "SACD" of video (a high-end niche format for those who can only be satisfied by the best specs on paper and the potential for better performance, no matter how small the improvement). Unfortunately, the BDA's effort to enlist exclusive studio support in an effort to shut out competition breaks that model and leaves us with what we have now. Last edited by BobY; 10-25-2007 at 10:31 AM.

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