Convert 60Hz to 50Hz?

Gilbert-Martin · 07-28-2007, 06:52 AM

For the new HDTV productions where the standart ist 1080 i or 1080 p, there is still this difference between the US and Europe of 50HZ and 60 HZ. Now, I do know, that the LCDs and players support both frequencies in the meantime, but still, is it necessary in order to have a correct running film in the USA to convert my 1080i50Hz first to 1080i or even p in 60Hz? Or does each version run just as good in Europe as on the other continent? Same question applies of course for US prod. in 60Hz that are to be going to Europe with its 50Hz. Any ideas
on that?

JMS · 07-28-2007, 08:05 AM

In countries that use the PAL or SECAM video standards, film destined for television is photographed at 25 frames per second. The PAL video standard broadcasts at 25 frames per second, so the transfer from film to video is simple; for every film frame, one video frame is captured. Theatrical features originally photographed at 24 frame/s are simply sped up by 4% to 25 frame/s...

...2^12:3, or 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 pulldown

This pulldown method is sometimes used in order to convert 24 frame/s material to 25 frame/s. Usually, this involves a film to PAL transfer without the aforementioned 4% speedup. For film at 24 frame/s, there are 24 frames of film for every 25 frames of PAL video. In order to accommodate this mismatch in frame rate, 24 frames of film have to be distributed over 50 PAL fields. This can be accomplished by inserting a pulldown field every 12 frames, thus effectively spreading 12 frames of film over 25 fields (or “12.5 frames”) of PAL video.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecin...te_differences

**************

Since this 3:2 pulldown problem doesn't apply to PAL, the only problem to be solved is interline flicker. And here PAL's one significant video weakness in comparison to NTSC has perversely lent a helping hand. Because PAL runs at 50 hertz, compared to NTSC's 60 hertz, both full screen and line flicker are more obvious in the PAL system. So for more than a decade various TV makers have been prompted to deal with this by the introduction of 100 hertz TV sets.

http://www.hifi-writer.com/he/progscan/progscan.htm

Gilbert-Martin · 07-28-2007, 10:03 AM

All these facts apply to Pal NTSC and 24p. But not to the question regarding 1080 i 50 versus 60 hz. It seems, one has to try it out in order to find out, cause no one really knows for sure.

Lee Stewart · 07-28-2007, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilbert-Martin

All these facts apply to Pal NTSC and 24p. But not to the question regarding 1080 i 50 versus 60 hz. It seems, one has to try it out in order to find out, cause no one really knows for sure.

The UK HD standard has to be compatible with PAL. Just like the USA HD standard has to be compatible with NTSC. PAL is NOT compatible with NTSC.

This is not a question of a toaster using 50 Hz power versus one using 60. Just convert 60 to 50 or visa versa.

IMO - won't work. USA TV standards are built around 60 - frame rates - interlace, etc. UK uses 50

You would have to convert the actual HD signal to 50 or upconvert it to 60. That may be done with a scaler - but that will be an expensive option if it exists.

**rbinck** · 07-28-2007, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilbert-Martin

All these facts apply to Pal NTSC and 24p. But not to the question regarding 1080 i 50 versus 60 hz. It seems, one has to try it out in order to find out, cause no one really knows for sure.

I'm not sure what is your question. If you are talking about 1080i video that is shot live or something, there is some expensive broadcast equipment available to convert to the PAL and vice versa. If you are talking about High Definition discs, the movies are all stored as 1080p/24 and the 60 Hz players will convert to 1080i/30 and the 50 Hz players will convert to 1080i/50.

Lee Stewart · 07-28-2007, 12:51 PM

Well I reread the OP and I missed the boat. The TV's are not interchangeable - but the movies are. Many here are buying Import HD DVD's from Europe where a movie is not available here in the USA due to the studio exclusives. The Prestige is only available as a BRD here but in EU it is a HD DVD.

They work fine - no problem.

Gilbert-Martin · 07-29-2007, 01:59 PM

For Europe I can say, that they (the players and the LCDs)accept HDTV in 60Hz, just like almost all DVD player accept an NTSC DVD and give out a PAL picture in Europe. But for the USA I am not that sure if they would run a 50 Hz HDTV smoothly.
Since I posted this thread I browsed the internet and to make sure all my clients will be happy with the result I will try the following: Save all my hdv 1080i with 1440 X 1080 lines and 50hz to a mpeg2 1080p 1920 X 1080 lines and 60hz that runs guaranteed on US players and most likely as well on european versions. 90 minutes are supposed to fit on a BD when done with 25 mbit/sec. compression rate.
On the way I found a product that seems to be able to even make Blue Ray DVD menues plus include copyprotections or regioncodes etc, called DVDit Pro HD. Sadely enough its not certain, if it runs under Vista, but what the heck, will try it or change back to XP if necessary. Thanx for Your help guys!

Gilbert-Martin · 07-29-2007, 02:00 PM

quick additition: will do the conversion from HDV mpeg to hdtv mpeg with canopus 2.

07-28-2007, 06:52 AM	#1
Gilbert-Martin How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 18	Convert 60Hz to 50Hz? For the new HDTV productions where the standart ist 1080 i or 1080 p, there is still this difference between the US and Europe of 50HZ and 60 HZ. Now, I do know, that the LCDs and players support both frequencies in the meantime, but still, is it necessary in order to have a correct running film in the USA to convert my 1080i50Hz first to 1080i or even p in 60Hz? Or does each version run just as good in Europe as on the other continent? Same question applies of course for US prod. in 60Hz that are to be going to Europe with its 50Hz. Any ideas on that?

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07-28-2007, 08:05 AM	#2
JMS I'm gettin' all pixelated Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Columbus,OH Posts: 713	In countries that use the PAL or SECAM video standards, film destined for television is photographed at 25 frames per second. The PAL video standard broadcasts at 25 frames per second, so the transfer from film to video is simple; for every film frame, one video frame is captured. Theatrical features originally photographed at 24 frame/s are simply sped up by 4% to 25 frame/s... ...2^12:3, or 2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:2:3 pulldown This pulldown method is sometimes used in order to convert 24 frame/s material to 25 frame/s. Usually, this involves a film to PAL transfer without the aforementioned 4% speedup. For film at 24 frame/s, there are 24 frames of film for every 25 frames of PAL video. In order to accommodate this mismatch in frame rate, 24 frames of film have to be distributed over 50 PAL fields. This can be accomplished by inserting a pulldown field every 12 frames, thus effectively spreading 12 frames of film over 25 fields (or “12.5 frames”) of PAL video. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecin...te_differences ************** Since this 3:2 pulldown problem doesn't apply to PAL, the only problem to be solved is interline flicker. And here PAL's one significant video weakness in comparison to NTSC has perversely lent a helping hand. Because PAL runs at 50 hertz, compared to NTSC's 60 hertz, both full screen and line flicker are more obvious in the PAL system. So for more than a decade various TV makers have been prompted to deal with this by the introduction of 100 hertz TV sets. http://www.hifi-writer.com/he/progscan/progscan.htm

07-28-2007, 10:03 AM	#3
Gilbert-Martin How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 18	All these facts apply to Pal NTSC and 24p. But not to the question regarding 1080 i 50 versus 60 hz. It seems, one has to try it out in order to find out, cause no one really knows for sure.

07-28-2007, 12:51 PM	#6
Lee Stewart Behold - the future! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Albuquerque, NM Age: 58 Posts: 26,397	Well I reread the OP and I missed the boat. The TV's are not interchangeable - but the movies are. Many here are buying Import HD DVD's from Europe where a movie is not available here in the USA due to the studio exclusives. The Prestige is only available as a BRD here but in EU it is a HD DVD. They work fine - no problem.

07-29-2007, 01:59 PM	#7
Gilbert-Martin How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 18	For Europe I can say, that they (the players and the LCDs)accept HDTV in 60Hz, just like almost all DVD player accept an NTSC DVD and give out a PAL picture in Europe. But for the USA I am not that sure if they would run a 50 Hz HDTV smoothly. Since I posted this thread I browsed the internet and to make sure all my clients will be happy with the result I will try the following: Save all my hdv 1080i with 1440 X 1080 lines and 50hz to a mpeg2 1080p 1920 X 1080 lines and 60hz that runs guaranteed on US players and most likely as well on european versions. 90 minutes are supposed to fit on a BD when done with 25 mbit/sec. compression rate. On the way I found a product that seems to be able to even make Blue Ray DVD menues plus include copyprotections or regioncodes etc, called DVDit Pro HD. Sadely enough its not certain, if it runs under Vista, but what the heck, will try it or change back to XP if necessary. Thanx for Your help guys!

07-29-2007, 02:00 PM	#8
Gilbert-Martin How can anyone watch standard def? Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 18	quick additition: will do the conversion from HDV mpeg to hdtv mpeg with canopus 2.