Bars, Bars and More Bars

redsoxfan · 04-27-2006, 06:45 PM

Great stuff -- I have a Panny TH50PX60U - and I have been using the zoom feature and it seems to do okay for most applications when it's needed. When watching an SD picture, I have black bars (by default) on full aspect and if I set the aspect to 4:3 , the sidebars are white. To prevent the "burn in"/ phosphor mismatch-aging, I run the set in zoom mode.

When watching a widescreen film, yes, the top/bottom bars concern me, so I flip between zoom and full, works ok.

Just curious though, if 80-90 percent of my viewing is actually done with true HDTV pix, and I occasionally flip between WS/full for a 480i DVD and zoon during the movie, do I really have to worry all that much about phosphor aging?

stchman · 05-17-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cannonball

I think I'll chime in here. I'm a new hdtv plasma owner. I've learned alot on this site. thanks

Anyways, my plasma has a 'wide' or 'Full' (can't remember witch)setting and when I get black bars in viewing SD material, I set it to one of these settings and the bars are removed and the picture looks great (my sd comes in 480p). One of these setting do make people fat but the other does not. For HD, I only have 2 settings full and wide. Full will remove any black bars from some HD channels but the wide will not. Then the zoom which I don't use.

Gosh, you know I love technology but sometimes it can make life more difficult. Sometimes you just want to sit down, turn the TV on and forget about burn in, zoom, hd, sd , burning bars, wide, full, ISF cal, is it in 480i or 480p or 1080i or is there a 1080p yet? Cable box set up right? I wonder if I can get 720p. What about a splitter? ... no might hurt the signal. DVD in 480i! darn I don't have progressive scan. Is this an hd channel? no wait it's sd ... whew I thought my plasma was broken. why is there a buzz sound, is it the fan? I'm at sea level, must be the fan. HDMI to DVI, no I'll use component but wait they say DVI is better. It can drive you mad, ha ha ho ho he he, they're coming to take me away! Hold on, I'm going to the kitchen to watch TV on the 13" CRT on the counter.

Just a little humor

.
Cannonball

480p is not SD. It is called ED. 480i is SD.

BrianO · 05-17-2006, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stchman

480p is not SD. It is called ED. 480i is SD.

Not according to the ATSC which developed the standard and defines both 480i and 480p as SD. ED is a self-serving term devised by the equipment manufacturers. It's the ATSC's standard, not the equipment manufacturers'.

oskidunker · 05-30-2006, 09:51 AM

My 16 x9 Toshiba does not show full screen on this channel though it does on AMC. Tv is set for Theater one stretch. If I go tho theater 2 on TMC, more of the screen is filled.You would think I would see more picture on my TV than an old style tv but on this channel not so.Very frustrating

maicaw · 05-30-2006, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oskidunker

My 16 x9 Toshiba does not show full screen on this channel though it does on AMC.

If you are talking about a digital MPEG2 signal - the aspect ratio is encoded as a variable parameter into the TS stream --so it can be different for similar material - and different during the same program depending on the encoding - This is probably covered earlier in this thread - I know it has been explained on other threads here. - do a search. - here's one from a simple google search -- http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...2+aspect+ratio

click on this

Quote:

Each MPEG-2 Video stream has a DAR (Display Aspect Ratio) flag. The flag tells the player for what kind of target display the stream has been encoded. There's 4 values: 1:1, 4:3, 16:9 and 2.11:1

that last 2.11:1 probably does get used - a lot

sreich10 · 06-10-2006, 08:06 AM

I still don't understand why, when I watch a "Wide Screen" DVD black bars appear on top. I thought WS format eliminated that. Doesn't anything in WS fill the entire screen.

**rbinck** · 06-10-2006, 09:15 AM

They name the DVD "wide screen" after the projected image not the type display you have. Wide screen films are more like 2.35:1 aspect ratio rather than the 1.78:1 aspect ration of your 16:9 widescreen TV. Ultra Panavision films like Mutiny on The Bounty are filmed in a 2.76:1 aspect ratio. Many films (not widescreen) these days are filmed in 1.85:1 which will fit a 1.78:1 screen without bars with minimum cropping or stretching.

Edit: I have added a new essay on my blog on this subject with illustrations. Click here for: DVD Pictures

BrianO · 06-10-2006, 06:57 PM

In DVD movie terminology, "Widescreen" means any movie made with an aspect ratio wider than the old Academy Standard of 1.37:1. So, although 1.85:1 is no longer considered to be widescreen in the movie business, it is still widescreen in the DVD world. The term "Widescreen" is used to distinguish these DVD's from "Fullscreen" which means that the image has an aspect ratio of 4:3 so that it fills the screen on a conventional 4:3 TV. Fullscreen DVD's are either cropped widescreen movies or older movies that were made using the 1.37:1 Academy standard ratio.

Any movie with an aspect ratio greater than 1.78:1 (16:9) will be shown in a letterboxed* form (bars at the top and bottom of the screen) on a 16:9 widescreen TV. On many TV's a 1.85:1 movie will fill the screen without bars due to overscan. On other TV's the 1.85:1 movies will show very thin, barely notceable black bars.

Besides 1.85:1, the most common aspect ratios are 2.35:1, 2.39:1 and 2.40:1. The 2.39:1 and 2.40:1 movies are all movies filmed with a 2.35:1 aspect ratio, but shown in theatres with with projector apertures that have been reduced in height to eliminate flashing at the top and/or bottom of the screen whenever a splice is encountered in the print of the film.

DVD's of CinemaScope movies made from 1953 to 1957 can have an aspect ratio of 2.55:1 rather than the newer 2.35:1 standard introduced in 1955 to accomodate optical mono soundtracks for exhibition in theatres that could not afford the stereophonic sound systems required to show the 2.55:1 movies.

Ultra Panavison (or Ultra Panavision 70) is Panvision's name for MGM's Camera 65. It was developed by Panavision to meet specifications provided to them by MGM. It used a 65 mm negative but a 70mm print with the extra width of the print being used to accomodate an extra 2 channels in the soundtrack. Only a few movies were made using this process. In addition to "Mutiny on the Bounty", MGM also filmed "Ben Hur" using this system and 70 mm prints had an aspect ratio of 2.76:1. 35mm CinemaScope compatible prints were also made with smaller aspect ratios. "Raintree County" was also filmed in Camera 65 but no 70 mm prints were made for exhibition; only 35mm CinemaScope prints were made.

* The term "letterboxed" refers to both movies that stored anamorphically and those stored in a non-anamorphic form.

paulc · 06-11-2006, 09:57 AM

Ah Brain, that's some good info. So I got some questions...

Isn't the current "academy standard" 2.35:1? And isn't that just a suggestion with filmmakers pretty much free to do what they want?

Somehow I have this impression that most features are shot and projected at 2.35:1. I kinda take that as a given; know of any significant percentage that are not?

Here's something that I'm curious about; I saw the final SW in a theater, so I'm sure it's 2.35:1. Shown last weekend on cable, yup, letterboxed. But I watched War of the World's (Spielbarg) from a DVD this week and it played 16:9 on a 16:9 TV (full frame if you would<g>). I.e. no letter boxing. Guess what it made me think? They are doing pan & scan to go from 2.35:1 to 1.78:1!

Of course, that assumes that film was 2.35:1 to start with. Never saw it in theaters... anyone know the scoop?

Lastly, I'm not 100% sure I completely understand "anamorphic." What I THINK is that it means a anamorphic lens is used in shooting that creates a film frame that is NOT the intended aspect ratio by itself. So on the film, the image would look "thin & tall." It then gets projected (or transferred) through another anamorphic lens that restores the originally intended aspect ratio. That the driving force is money... as in you use less square footage of film by squeezing and unsqueezing. Do I have all that right?

**rbinck** · 06-11-2006, 10:49 AM

Here is a very good site that explains anamorphic:
http://www.dvdweb.co.uk/information/anamorphic.htm

Once reviewed it should be clear that anamorphic does not have much, if anything, to do with aspect ratios.

tvine2000 · 06-11-2006, 12:54 PM

but also because of overscan movies in 2.35 on 16x9 tvs are missing image on the left and right sides. if you put a 2.35 dvd movie in a computer there will be very thin black bars on the sides of the montor,so if you watch a movie with people on the far right a left,they get cut off on a 16x9 tv. not so on a computer ive talked to people who know about such things and they tried it and cant give me a answer startrek nemasis is a good movie to try this with. to me this is again a rip off. besides most tv shows are shot in 1.85 but i see alot of movies shot in 2.35. why cant 16x9 tvs display the 2.35 image correct computers can!

**rbinck** · 06-11-2006, 03:48 PM

You said it: Overscan.

maicaw · 06-19-2006, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbinck

You said it: Overscan.

Does overscan mean that a 1920x1080 broadcast being viewed on a 1920x1080 display will have just a large portion say 1853x1027 pixels scaled to the 1920x1080 display pixels?
- If that be the case - why does the native resolution matter except that more is better - any format would be scaled by some odd factor because of overscan - no matter what the actual pixel counts are

**rbinck** · 06-19-2006, 09:03 PM

Usually overscan is associated with CRTs where the width and height of the picture is adjusted to be behind the bezel, but in the case of a fixed pixel panel like a plasma or LCD the scaling you describe would be done. Reason is since the broadcasters use the overscan areas for various other things they are not very picky about what may end up there and without overscan you could have video noise showing up on the screen. Many fixed rear projection sets will have "pixels behind the bezel" so to speak. And you are correct in the odd scaling.

Jkb26mi · 08-02-2006, 04:59 PM

I may have a new border problem.

I purchased a Dell 31" LCD w/HD this Fall and was watching OTA broadcasts for several months. Got hooked up to a Comcast HD-DVR. At first, everything was Ok, and reception of local stations the same as OTA. The first Comcast "box" was permanently freezing on a regular basis and they put a new one in, which was slightly different.
The first thing I noticed, was horizontal bars appearing on all digital stations, HD broadcasts or not. I was used to the vertical bars of non-HD digital stations, but this was new. So, I discovered the "Zoom" feature on my Dell remote. Never had to use this before. "Zoom" eliminated the horizontal bars on HD broadcasts, although it messed up regular TV baseball games, as the score was out of view unless I switched back to standard. There is still a problem with non-HD digital broadcasts, however. Non-HD broadcasts of NBC show a dotted border at the very top which doesn't quite disappear with Zoom. It's not as bad with CBS, but there's something similar at the top.

I am having other problems as well (not on the border topic). Very recently, I've started to notice vibrations in the background on HD broadcasts. For instance, with Letterman or Leno shows, Dave or Jay come in clear, while there is distinctive motion in the background. In baseball games (INHD2), the foul line seems to be vibrating. Anyway, do you think I should call Comcast, or Dell?

05-30-2006, 09:51 AM	#34
oskidunker High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 131	Turner Movie classics My 16 x9 Toshiba does not show full screen on this channel though it does on AMC. Tv is set for Theater one stretch. If I go tho theater 2 on TMC, more of the screen is filled.You would think I would see more picture on my TV than an old style tv but on this channel not so.Very frustrating

06-10-2006, 08:06 AM	#36
sreich10 My plasma is High Def. Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 8	Still confused I still don't understand why, when I watch a "Wide Screen" DVD black bars appear on top. I thought WS format eliminated that. Doesn't anything in WS fill the entire screen.

06-10-2006, 09:15 AM	#37
rbinck Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 10,612	They name the DVD "wide screen" after the projected image not the type display you have. Wide screen films are more like 2.35:1 aspect ratio rather than the 1.78:1 aspect ration of your 16:9 widescreen TV. Ultra Panavision films like Mutiny on The Bounty are filmed in a 2.76:1 aspect ratio. Many films (not widescreen) these days are filmed in 1.85:1 which will fit a 1.78:1 screen without bars with minimum cropping or stretching. Edit: I have added a new essay on my blog on this subject with illustrations. Click here for: DVD Pictures __________________ www.highdefinitionblog.com www.BlogOfHawaii.com Last edited by rbinck; 06-11-2006 at 10:55 AM.

06-10-2006, 06:57 PM	#38
BrianO Sony KD34XS955 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Pointe-Claire QC Posts: 1,989	In DVD movie terminology, "Widescreen" means any movie made with an aspect ratio wider than the old Academy Standard of 1.37:1. So, although 1.85:1 is no longer considered to be widescreen in the movie business, it is still widescreen in the DVD world. The term "Widescreen" is used to distinguish these DVD's from "Fullscreen" which means that the image has an aspect ratio of 4:3 so that it fills the screen on a conventional 4:3 TV. Fullscreen DVD's are either cropped widescreen movies or older movies that were made using the 1.37:1 Academy standard ratio. Any movie with an aspect ratio greater than 1.78:1 (16:9) will be shown in a letterboxed* form (bars at the top and bottom of the screen) on a 16:9 widescreen TV. On many TV's a 1.85:1 movie will fill the screen without bars due to overscan. On other TV's the 1.85:1 movies will show very thin, barely notceable black bars. Besides 1.85:1, the most common aspect ratios are 2.35:1, 2.39:1 and 2.40:1. The 2.39:1 and 2.40:1 movies are all movies filmed with a 2.35:1 aspect ratio, but shown in theatres with with projector apertures that have been reduced in height to eliminate flashing at the top and/or bottom of the screen whenever a splice is encountered in the print of the film. DVD's of CinemaScope movies made from 1953 to 1957 can have an aspect ratio of 2.55:1 rather than the newer 2.35:1 standard introduced in 1955 to accomodate optical mono soundtracks for exhibition in theatres that could not afford the stereophonic sound systems required to show the 2.55:1 movies. Ultra Panavison (or Ultra Panavision 70) is Panvision's name for MGM's Camera 65. It was developed by Panavision to meet specifications provided to them by MGM. It used a 65 mm negative but a 70mm print with the extra width of the print being used to accomodate an extra 2 channels in the soundtrack. Only a few movies were made using this process. In addition to "Mutiny on the Bounty", MGM also filmed "Ben Hur" using this system and 70 mm prints had an aspect ratio of 2.76:1. 35mm CinemaScope compatible prints were also made with smaller aspect ratios. "Raintree County" was also filmed in Camera 65 but no 70 mm prints were made for exhibition; only 35mm CinemaScope prints were made. * The term "letterboxed" refers to both movies that stored anamorphically and those stored in a non-anamorphic form. Last edited by BrianO; 06-10-2006 at 06:59 PM.

06-11-2006, 10:49 AM	#40
rbinck Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 10,612	Here is a very good site that explains anamorphic: http://www.dvdweb.co.uk/information/anamorphic.htm Once reviewed it should be clear that anamorphic does not have much, if anything, to do with aspect ratios. __________________ www.highdefinitionblog.com www.BlogOfHawaii.com Last edited by rbinck; 06-11-2006 at 10:52 AM.

04-27-2006, 06:45 PM	#31
redsoxfan A couch and an HDTV to go please. Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 10	Great stuff -- I have a Panny TH50PX60U - and I have been using the zoom feature and it seems to do okay for most applications when it's needed. When watching an SD picture, I have black bars (by default) on full aspect and if I set the aspect to 4:3 , the sidebars are white. To prevent the "burn in"/ phosphor mismatch-aging, I run the set in zoom mode. When watching a widescreen film, yes, the top/bottom bars concern me, so I flip between zoom and full, works ok. Just curious though, if 80-90 percent of my viewing is actually done with true HDTV pix, and I occasionally flip between WS/full for a 480i DVD and zoon during the movie, do I really have to worry all that much about phosphor aging?

06-11-2006, 09:57 AM	#39
paulc Very Grizzled Vet of 1 yr Join Date: May 2006 Location: New York City Posts: 1,764	Ah Brain, that's some good info. So I got some questions... Isn't the current "academy standard" 2.35:1? And isn't that just a suggestion with filmmakers pretty much free to do what they want? Somehow I have this impression that most features are shot and projected at 2.35:1. I kinda take that as a given; know of any significant percentage that are not? Here's something that I'm curious about; I saw the final SW in a theater, so I'm sure it's 2.35:1. Shown last weekend on cable, yup, letterboxed. But I watched War of the World's (Spielbarg) from a DVD this week and it played 16:9 on a 16:9 TV (full frame if you would<g>). I.e. no letter boxing. Guess what it made me think? They are doing pan & scan to go from 2.35:1 to 1.78:1! Of course, that assumes that film was 2.35:1 to start with. Never saw it in theaters... anyone know the scoop? Lastly, I'm not 100% sure I completely understand "anamorphic." What I THINK is that it means a anamorphic lens is used in shooting that creates a film frame that is NOT the intended aspect ratio by itself. So on the film, the image would look "thin & tall." It then gets projected (or transferred) through another anamorphic lens that restores the originally intended aspect ratio. That the driving force is money... as in you use less square footage of film by squeezing and unsqueezing. Do I have all that right?

06-11-2006, 12:54 PM	#41
tvine2000 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 599	but also because of overscan movies in 2.35 on 16x9 tvs are missing image on the left and right sides. if you put a 2.35 dvd movie in a computer there will be very thin black bars on the sides of the montor,so if you watch a movie with people on the far right a left,they get cut off on a 16x9 tv. not so on a computer ive talked to people who know about such things and they tried it and cant give me a answer startrek nemasis is a good movie to try this with. to me this is again a rip off. besides most tv shows are shot in 1.85 but i see alot of movies shot in 2.35. why cant 16x9 tvs display the 2.35 image correct computers can!

06-11-2006, 03:48 PM	#42
rbinck Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 10,612	You said it: Overscan. __________________ www.highdefinitionblog.com www.BlogOfHawaii.com

06-19-2006, 09:03 PM	#44
rbinck Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 10,612	Usually overscan is associated with CRTs where the width and height of the picture is adjusted to be behind the bezel, but in the case of a fixed pixel panel like a plasma or LCD the scaling you describe would be done. Reason is since the broadcasters use the overscan areas for various other things they are not very picky about what may end up there and without overscan you could have video noise showing up on the screen. Many fixed rear projection sets will have "pixels behind the bezel" so to speak. And you are correct in the odd scaling. __________________ www.highdefinitionblog.com www.BlogOfHawaii.com Last edited by rbinck; 06-19-2006 at 09:06 PM.

08-02-2006, 04:59 PM	#45
Jkb26mi My plasma is High Def. Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 8	I may have a new border problem. I purchased a Dell 31" LCD w/HD this Fall and was watching OTA broadcasts for several months. Got hooked up to a Comcast HD-DVR. At first, everything was Ok, and reception of local stations the same as OTA. The first Comcast "box" was permanently freezing on a regular basis and they put a new one in, which was slightly different. The first thing I noticed, was horizontal bars appearing on all digital stations, HD broadcasts or not. I was used to the vertical bars of non-HD digital stations, but this was new. So, I discovered the "Zoom" feature on my Dell remote. Never had to use this before. "Zoom" eliminated the horizontal bars on HD broadcasts, although it messed up regular TV baseball games, as the score was out of view unless I switched back to standard. There is still a problem with non-HD digital broadcasts, however. Non-HD broadcasts of NBC show a dotted border at the very top which doesn't quite disappear with Zoom. It's not as bad with CBS, but there's something similar at the top. I am having other problems as well (not on the border topic). Very recently, I've started to notice vibrations in the background on HD broadcasts. For instance, with Letterman or Leno shows, Dave or Jay come in clear, while there is distinctive motion in the background. In baseball games (INHD2), the foul line seems to be vibrating. Anyway, do you think I should call Comcast, or Dell?

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode