A Discussion On Poor SD On HDTVs

numbskully · 04-08-2005, 10:20 PM

Just wondering why you would subscribe to DN without getting the HD pkg. The 522 will show nothing but SD. No HD from that receiver. If you wanted to have DVR capability with HD you should have opted for the 942. More upfront cost but, would have brought the best of both worlds to your TV. And no company can say that their SD is as good as someone elses HD.

**rbinck** · 04-09-2005, 09:57 AM

Besides, they make their digital claims with no larger than a 36" TV in mind. Put SD on a 50"+ HDTV and it's gonna look bad, particularly from a SD receiver with all of the decompression artifacts in the signal.

rickbbb · 04-24-2005, 01:59 PM

My current Tv's tube on Standard Definition..not digital definition looks so so.I have a Sony 34 HS420.The digital picture on this looks just as sharp or sharper than high definition.

SolidMGSnake · 07-10-2005, 04:01 PM

gargh.. so that explains why my channels look so damn crappy on my Viera TH-50PX25U/P 50-inch Plasma Display. Its digital cables fault! But maybe were just sitting too close.. but artifacts are still noticable anyways just not as much..
Could I maybe use component video cables to reduce the artifacts? Im currently using an s-video between the cable box and TV.

SolidMGSnake · 07-12-2005, 02:33 PM

Maybe even use HDMI?

Blue_Tech · 07-13-2005, 01:09 AM

Both Component and HDMI will offer an improvement over S-Video.

RSawdey · 07-13-2005, 11:54 PM

SVideo is limited to 480i NTSC, it can't even carry progressive 480p. You need HDMI/DVI, or Component, or VGA to carry an HD res signal.

**rbinck** · 07-14-2005, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SolidMGSnake

gargh.. so that explains why my channels look so damn crappy on my Viera TH-50PX25U/P 50-inch Plasma Display. Its digital cables fault! But maybe were just sitting too close.. but artifacts are still noticable anyways just not as much..
Could I maybe use component video cables to reduce the artifacts? Im currently using an s-video between the cable box and TV.

Hi neighbor,
You should use either component cables, DVI or HDMI to get the HD display. I'd leave the s-video hooked up and add the HD connection as the s-video can actually look better on SD than the HD connection sometimes.

Yes it is digital cable that is causing the poor picture. The original material is compressed at the source and then decompressed by the cable box. HD material with its greater data will show decompression artifacts much less than the SD material due to the greater bandwidth alloted to HD channels. Here is an example of decompression artifacts on the left.

When blown up on a 50" display the noise of decompression as shown on the left between the SAT-L and DVD-L graphics will be exagerated on your display as opposed to the uncompressed example on the right. If you view an OTA digital signal from one of our local channels, they do the upscaling at the station and then merge it into the 16:9 frame and you will see the SD is about as good as a DVD. You need OTA unfortunately as the cable HD local channels are not quite as good due to compression and decompression of the cable signals, but they will be better than the other SD only channels.

Bottom line is there is very little you will be able to do about the poor picture. I have a 27" TV to watch SD myself.

Stevencc · 08-04-2005, 05:11 PM

This is a great article that has stopped me from running around in circles, having already contacted my TV salesman and manufacturer, cable company, and cable box manufacturer. No one could tell me anything. You already answered most of my questions, but now I'm wondering if it would help to have a separate cable box for SD. My HD box is definitely not doing a good job of it. I'm using it's component output to send to my TV. What if I used a separate SD cable box to send an RF signal to my HD tv and put it into the analog RF input. Would that solve the problem??? Thanks! (I currently have a Scientific Atlanta 8300 PVR cable box and a Sharp Aquos 45" LCD TV. The HD channels are really great. The SD channels have varying degrees ghosting, pixelation, hot muddy reds, and all the other artifact you've mentioned. The worst effect is on images made up of small elements like blades of grass, leaves of trees, or, in I Robot, a close-up of sugar in a bowl.)

ja2935 · 08-04-2005, 08:37 PM

Try lowering the SVM (Scan Velocity Modulation) if it is switcheable on your set. Also reduce the Sharpness. These adjustments will certainly be good for your HD pictures and may help with the SD ones.

iserum · 08-04-2005, 09:02 PM

thhree years ago i had hitachi hdtv (36 CRT) with DN service, the SD PQ was very bad and i always wondered at that time that i spend so much money on HDTV but PQ is not so good, it all changed when i got the HD box from DN, the HD PQ was amazing on the same tv, SD got worse specially with DN 811 receiver (SD PQ was better with DN 311 receiver).
Now i have PAnny 37 inch plams the PQ of SD is very good specially all new programs (some old reruns prgrams are bad in PQ eg, Cheers, MASH or some old episodes of Sienfeld). Childrens programs are very new so if you look at those channels you will find PQ lot better as they are recoreded in last year or so (most of them). I am using Moto 6412 DVR.
PQ is lot depend on what program you are watching, some of the TNTHD are far poor quality as compared to HDnet movies or HBO HD.

ja2935 · 08-04-2005, 11:06 PM

Yes SD picture quality is very variable, even different material on the same channel. Being from the old country I watch BBC America and some of the newer productions are quite reasonable (not as good as the better digital cable SD channels) but I am puzzled why the live news always seems so poor - sometimes the scrolling news bar at the bottom is almost illegible. It was the same when I had DirectTV and an analog 27" Wega.

All in all I think my 34"CRT is a good compromise - big enough for HD to be impressive - small enough to make SD acceptable - and a good contrast picture that you can see from all angles.

travis1080 · 08-16-2005, 10:55 AM

I've got the Sharp aquos 37d5u and my sd with cox digital cable is grainy. Any recommendations on how to clear this up would be appreciated. I receive hd ota and it is great. I have the cable company coming out to look at it, but since I have read these threads I now realize that this is normal. I have a analog hookup, digital air hookup, and digital hookup. Currently the digital cable box is hooked to analog. I tried to run it directly to the digital hookup but did not work. Any advice.........

maclarenjc · 09-07-2005, 09:44 AM

Having recently upgraded to a high def capable widescreen TV I found the SD quality even with a digital cable box very poor. As mentioned in earlier posts it degrades at higher screen sizes and especially with home theater projectors. My first attempt at high definition TV involved a Samsung 4674 DLP TV. The filters and upconversion in that TV made even standard definition channels look fantastic, much sharper and noise free than I had ever seen. Unfortunately for me I suffered headaches and vision issues from the rainbow artifacts so I had to return the TV. After that I am now using a Hitatchi 51S715. The high def channels looked great and most digital channels (i.e. above 100) but below 100 most SD channels looked consistently terrible. I tried various "typical" signal amplifiers from Radio Shack, Best Buy but nothing helped.

Then I came across several websites discussing the Electroline line of cable signal amplifiers and in particular the Cable TV amps seller on EBay. I recently received the 4-port version made by PDI in this case but with the same specs as the Electrolines. They also make 2 up to 8 port versions. The company recommends installing the amplifier before the first splits of signal but just to try it out right away I installed it directly on the line going into my Hitachi and the difference blew me away, it completely removed the bluriness, ghosting, and noise, in fact some of the major network feeds look almost as good as their high def counterparts (clearly the resolution and detail are not there but as far as clear picture they become very close). The 4-port version was only $60 and well worth every penny.

After that I installed the amplifier outside at the junction box before any cable company supplied splits attaching it right as the line comes into the junction box. I also removed an extra splitter the cable company had put in there to separate a line for my cable modem. This particular model also amplifies the return path back to the cable company making for a stronger connection back to the cable company for the return signal. By placing this at the top of the signal path it improves the signal to all cable runs in the house and the cable modem.

http://cgi.ebay.com/PDI-4-PORT-ACTI...Qcmd ZViewItem

BigBluu · 10-04-2005, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maclarenjc

Having recently upgraded to a high def capable widescreen TV I found the SD quality even with a digital cable box very poor. As mentioned in earlier posts it degrades at higher screen sizes and especially with home theater projectors. My first attempt at high definition TV involved a Samsung 4674 DLP TV. The filters and upconversion in that TV made even standard definition channels look fantastic, much sharper and noise free than I had ever seen. Unfortunately for me I suffered headaches and vision issues from the rainbow artifacts so I had to return the TV. After that I am now using a Hitatchi 51S715. The high def channels looked great and most digital channels (i.e. above 100) but below 100 most SD channels looked consistently terrible. I tried various "typical" signal amplifiers from Radio Shack, Best Buy but nothing helped.

Then I came across several websites discussing the Electroline line of cable signal amplifiers and in particular the Cable TV amps seller on EBay. I recently received the 4-port version made by PDI in this case but with the same specs as the Electrolines. They also make 2 up to 8 port versions. The company recommends installing the amplifier before the first splits of signal but just to try it out right away I installed it directly on the line going into my Hitachi and the difference blew me away, it completely removed the bluriness, ghosting, and noise, in fact some of the major network feeds look almost as good as their high def counterparts (clearly the resolution and detail are not there but as far as clear picture they become very close). The 4-port version was only $60 and well worth every penny.

After that I installed the amplifier outside at the junction box before any cable company supplied splits attaching it right as the line comes into the junction box. I also removed an extra splitter the cable company had put in there to separate a line for my cable modem. This particular model also amplifies the return path back to the cable company making for a stronger connection back to the cable company for the return signal. By placing this at the top of the signal path it improves the signal to all cable runs in the house and the cable modem.

http://cgi.ebay.com/PDI-4-PORT-ACTI...Qcmd ZViewItem

How do you hook up the power supply for the amplifier if it's connected at the junction box? Mine is outside the house...not sure about others. Has anyone else tried this? Does it really help?

04-24-2005, 01:59 PM	#33
rickbbb High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,985	The Picture On My Sony In Standard Definition My current Tv's tube on Standard Definition..not digital definition looks so so.I have a Sony 34 HS420.The digital picture on this looks just as sharp or sharper than high definition.

07-10-2005, 04:01 PM	#34
SolidMGSnake Panasonic TH-50PX50U Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sugar Land, TX Age: 21 Posts: 36	gargh.. so that explains why my channels look so damn crappy on my Viera TH-50PX25U/P 50-inch Plasma Display. Its digital cables fault! But maybe were just sitting too close.. but artifacts are still noticable anyways just not as much.. Could I maybe use component video cables to reduce the artifacts? Im currently using an s-video between the cable box and TV. __________________ "There is no good,there is no bad.Just perspective and opinion."-Squall Leonhart "Hand to hand. It is the basis of all combat. Only a fool trusts his life to a weapon."-Grey Fox "Love.. it is just an illusion which weakens and imprisons us."- me and others

07-12-2005, 02:33 PM	#35
SolidMGSnake Panasonic TH-50PX50U Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sugar Land, TX Age: 21 Posts: 36	Maybe even use HDMI? __________________ "There is no good,there is no bad.Just perspective and opinion."-Squall Leonhart "Hand to hand. It is the basis of all combat. Only a fool trusts his life to a weapon."-Grey Fox "Love.. it is just an illusion which weakens and imprisons us."- me and others

07-13-2005, 01:09 AM	#36
Blue_Tech Who needs reality? Join Date: May 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 436	Both Component and HDMI will offer an improvement over S-Video. __________________ Blue_Tech Sony KV32XBR400 Sony DVD Dream 5.1 system Sony PS2 DishNet 522 Dual Tuner DVR

08-04-2005, 08:37 PM	#40
ja2935 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1,034	Try lowering the SVM (Scan Velocity Modulation) if it is switcheable on your set. Also reduce the Sharpness. These adjustments will certainly be good for your HD pictures and may help with the SD ones. __________________ Toshiba 34HF84 Comcast Motorola DCT 3416 (all digital), Component/Fiber Optic Toshiba SD4900 (Region Free), Component/Digital Coax Toshiba HD-A2, HDMI/Fiber Optic Yamaha YHT-160 Home Theater System

04-08-2005, 10:20 PM	#31
numbskully Gimme Dave in HD!! Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Illinois Age: 43 Posts: 209	Just wondering why you would subscribe to DN without getting the HD pkg. The 522 will show nothing but SD. No HD from that receiver. If you wanted to have DVR capability with HD you should have opted for the 942. More upfront cost but, would have brought the best of both worlds to your TV. And no company can say that their SD is as good as someone elses HD.

04-09-2005, 09:57 AM	#32
rbinck Super Moderator Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 10,612	Besides, they make their digital claims with no larger than a 36" TV in mind. Put SD on a 50"+ HDTV and it's gonna look bad, particularly from a SD receiver with all of the decompression artifacts in the signal.

07-13-2005, 11:54 PM	#37
RSawdey Mr. Wizard Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ferndale, Michigan Age: 60 Posts: 5,981	SVideo is limited to 480i NTSC, it can't even carry progressive 480p. You need HDMI/DVI, or Component, or VGA to carry an HD res signal.

08-04-2005, 05:11 PM	#39
Stevencc What is HD? Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1	This is a great article that has stopped me from running around in circles, having already contacted my TV salesman and manufacturer, cable company, and cable box manufacturer. No one could tell me anything. You already answered most of my questions, but now I'm wondering if it would help to have a separate cable box for SD. My HD box is definitely not doing a good job of it. I'm using it's component output to send to my TV. What if I used a separate SD cable box to send an RF signal to my HD tv and put it into the analog RF input. Would that solve the problem??? Thanks! (I currently have a Scientific Atlanta 8300 PVR cable box and a Sharp Aquos 45" LCD TV. The HD channels are really great. The SD channels have varying degrees ghosting, pixelation, hot muddy reds, and all the other artifact you've mentioned. The worst effect is on images made up of small elements like blades of grass, leaves of trees, or, in I Robot, a close-up of sugar in a bowl.)

08-04-2005, 09:02 PM	#41
iserum High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,758	thhree years ago i had hitachi hdtv (36 CRT) with DN service, the SD PQ was very bad and i always wondered at that time that i spend so much money on HDTV but PQ is not so good, it all changed when i got the HD box from DN, the HD PQ was amazing on the same tv, SD got worse specially with DN 811 receiver (SD PQ was better with DN 311 receiver). Now i have PAnny 37 inch plams the PQ of SD is very good specially all new programs (some old reruns prgrams are bad in PQ eg, Cheers, MASH or some old episodes of Sienfeld). Childrens programs are very new so if you look at those channels you will find PQ lot better as they are recoreded in last year or so (most of them). I am using Moto 6412 DVR. PQ is lot depend on what program you are watching, some of the TNTHD are far poor quality as compared to HDnet movies or HBO HD. __________________ Panasonic 50PX80U/Toshiba HD A1/40 GB PS3 SONY BRAVIA 40V2500/SONY BDP S350 Yamaha RXV1700 Def. Tech. Mythos III, V & Gems, Super Cube III Tivo HD Harmony Remote One Power Conditioner: Belkin PF40

08-04-2005, 11:06 PM	#42
ja2935 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1,034	Yes SD picture quality is very variable, even different material on the same channel. Being from the old country I watch BBC America and some of the newer productions are quite reasonable (not as good as the better digital cable SD channels) but I am puzzled why the live news always seems so poor - sometimes the scrolling news bar at the bottom is almost illegible. It was the same when I had DirectTV and an analog 27" Wega. All in all I think my 34"CRT is a good compromise - big enough for HD to be impressive - small enough to make SD acceptable - and a good contrast picture that you can see from all angles. __________________ Toshiba 34HF84 Comcast Motorola DCT 3416 (all digital), Component/Fiber Optic Toshiba SD4900 (Region Free), Component/Digital Coax Toshiba HD-A2, HDMI/Fiber Optic Yamaha YHT-160 Home Theater System

08-16-2005, 10:55 AM	#43
travis1080 What is HD? Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 3	Sd Help???? I've got the Sharp aquos 37d5u and my sd with cox digital cable is grainy. Any recommendations on how to clear this up would be appreciated. I receive hd ota and it is great. I have the cable company coming out to look at it, but since I have read these threads I now realize that this is normal. I have a analog hookup, digital air hookup, and digital hookup. Currently the digital cable box is hooked to analog. I tried to run it directly to the digital hookup but did not work. Any advice.........

09-07-2005, 09:44 AM	#44
maclarenjc What is HD? Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3	Sd Help???? Having recently upgraded to a high def capable widescreen TV I found the SD quality even with a digital cable box very poor. As mentioned in earlier posts it degrades at higher screen sizes and especially with home theater projectors. My first attempt at high definition TV involved a Samsung 4674 DLP TV. The filters and upconversion in that TV made even standard definition channels look fantastic, much sharper and noise free than I had ever seen. Unfortunately for me I suffered headaches and vision issues from the rainbow artifacts so I had to return the TV. After that I am now using a Hitatchi 51S715. The high def channels looked great and most digital channels (i.e. above 100) but below 100 most SD channels looked consistently terrible. I tried various "typical" signal amplifiers from Radio Shack, Best Buy but nothing helped. Then I came across several websites discussing the Electroline line of cable signal amplifiers and in particular the Cable TV amps seller on EBay. I recently received the 4-port version made by PDI in this case but with the same specs as the Electrolines. They also make 2 up to 8 port versions. The company recommends installing the amplifier before the first splits of signal but just to try it out right away I installed it directly on the line going into my Hitachi and the difference blew me away, it completely removed the bluriness, ghosting, and noise, in fact some of the major network feeds look almost as good as their high def counterparts (clearly the resolution and detail are not there but as far as clear picture they become very close). The 4-port version was only $60 and well worth every penny. After that I installed the amplifier outside at the junction box before any cable company supplied splits attaching it right as the line comes into the junction box. I also removed an extra splitter the cable company had put in there to separate a line for my cable modem. This particular model also amplifies the return path back to the cable company making for a stronger connection back to the cable company for the return signal. By placing this at the top of the signal path it improves the signal to all cable runs in the house and the cable modem. http://cgi.ebay.com/PDI-4-PORT-ACTI...Qcmd ZViewItem

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