Question about aspect ratios on HD channels

GaryMF

So I got my LCD 32" panasonic TV last week, got RCN HD STB with DVR (Motorola 6208)...... using Monster 1 Component cables for DVD to TV< and the component cables supplied by RCN for STB to TV.

I've been reading the forums so I kind of get hte idea that regular channels are going to look a bit worse on this new setup then they did before.... which seems to be ture (i.e. the LCD tv is so good it brings out imperfections in SD pictures).

What I'm curious about though is the following:

1. RCN provides HD channels or ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX and PBS for free, but they are on different channels (in the 100 range) than the regular versions.

So if I want to watch HD, I go to those channels. But except for PBS, I dont' think the networks broadcast in HD 24/7 right?

So even if I"m watching the HD Version of ABC, is it always an actual HD program? Or just in primetime when they say it's "in hd"?

2. Even if it is always in HD on these channels, it's clear that it is not always in widescreen 16:9. Does it make sense to Justify or Zoom on a HD but non-widescreen show?

3. When ABC or NBC is NOT in widescreen, is it better to watch on the HD channel or the regular version?

4. This is a bit moot for me, but if I had a HD tuner that could get OTA signals, would i get HD on the regular network channels 2, 4 and 7? SO it's just the cable companies that force you to go to another channel so they can charge you more?

slowmo

1. Keep in mind that all network affiliates, to the extent they broadcast in digital, will broadcast at least two versions of their programming. In fact, their call sign (ex. "WIAT") will have a "DT" suffix for the digital broadcast signal which will either be in SD or HD. Your cable company is picking up the HD digital broadcast (ex. WIAT-DT) and displaying it on the HD channels. The original analog broadcast is still displayed at the normal cable channel.

The networks do not broadcast in HD PROGRAMMING 24/7. PBS does for its HD broadcast channel. (Actually PBS broadcasts in "widescreen" programming - some of the programming is HD but some is only 480p.) The regular networks limit HD programming to certain sporting events, prime time dramas, certain sit-coms, etc. Typically, they'll advertise the HD simulcast at the beginning of the show.

When the national networks are showing 4:3 SD programming (ex. a reality show), the 4:3 image will be packaged with black bars on the side and the adjusted image will be broadcast on the HD SIGNAL as 16:9 1080i or 720p depending on the network. Thus, you're stuck with the black bars unless your monitor allows you to use "zoom" settings for HD content (which is a poor band-aid anyway).

2. Don't confuse the HD SIGNAL vs. PROGRAMMING. When the programming is SD, the HD signal will dress it up slightly (essentially a good digital image) but may present other problems with the permanent black bars added to create the full 16:9 image. Typically, you can only eliminate the black bars by a full "zoom" setting (assuming your monitor allows you to change aspect ratios when viewing HD component - mine doesn't) vs. just a normal "stretch or justify" setting. Personally, I'll either just watch it via normal "full" setting with bars or not watch the program at all (more the latter).

3. See above.

4. As noted above, the HD channels are truly separate channels. I don't think an ATSC OTA tuner will pick up and display the analog signals. It will, however, display both SD and HD digital signals for a given local network affiliate (ex. I get HD PBS on 10.1 and SD PBS on 10.2 - the SD PBS is the exact digital version of the analog programming carried by my local cable company).

GaryMF

Thanks for your reply.

Yeah my TV (Pansonic LCD Lx32) doesn't let you change picture setting in HD mode.

It's werid cuz it seems like unless you are watching an actual HD program, your picture isnt' as great as with the old version.

For network broadcats not in HD, it seems like the regular version of the channel is better. Last night, I was watching Seinfeld on Fox at 11pm, and I switche back and forth between regular Channel 5, and the FoxhD channel on RCN, and the HD version had the bars, but didnt' look as good IMO for some reason as the regular Fox channel.


Also, for some reason, NBC (or one of the big 3) uses light grey bars on their HD channel when not broadcasting in 16:9.

Thanks again to everyone on this forum.

One more question:

Would I get better regular channel reception if I hooked up an S-video or composite cable form my STB to the TV, and watch regular TV using that input rather than my component input for the HD channels?

slowmo

You're using a cable HD box right?

If so, check to see if your box allows you to vary the output settings. My first box (Sci Atl 3100HD) was fixed at 1080i. Thus, all channels (analog, sd digital and hd) were output at 16:9 1080, thus the non-hd channels had bars added by the box. I used an Svideo out simultaneously to view those channels so that I could stretch / justify the image.

My recent box (Sci Atl 3250HD and now 8000HD) allowed a lot of variation in the output settings (fixed at 480i, 480p,720p,1080i; upconvert, downconvert, pass thru at native). With that box, I could pass thru at native resolution and thus use my monitor's stretch setting for the 480 stuff and full setting for HD stuff - all thru the component cable input.

Prior to the 8000HD, I had a regular tivo hooked up via the Svideo. That image was not as good as the 480 stuff viewed via the component on the 3250HD box.

GaryMF

Well, when watching regular channels, I CAN use the TV's setting to justify or zoom so that's what I do. (I dont' know if it's upconverting or downconverting...t.hat's beyond my knowledge right now!).

ANd when watching the HD channels I can't change it, because my TV says HD signals can't be changed, they are always in full.

THe thing is I wonder if using an S video for the non HD regular channels would be less fuzy than the COmponent connection, or is that always going to be a factor when watching signals that are not as good as the tv.

borromini

You're never really going to know until you actually try it with your own equipment. A positive or negative result from one of us could be due to other variables.

__________________
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

slowmo

Go ahead and give it a try but I doubt you'll see a better picture with Svideo.

Otherwise it sounds like your HD STB has variable resolution settings and that it is currently set to output at "native resolution". Thus, when you change to a non-HD channel, the box outputs that signal at 480i. Your monitor must already be set to stretch / justify the picture for that input. Thus, when it reads a <720p signal, it stretches the image.

When you change to the HD channel, the box outputs that signal at 720 or 1080 depending on the network's format. Your monitor now reads a +720 signal and switches the aspect setting to "full".

That is all good and is probably the best compromise for switching between non-hd and hd channels all via one component connection. Count yourself lucky.

Of course, you can still experiment with S-video if you just like crawling around behind your components on the floor!

oskidunker

Change the input on the tv to "VCR". For some reason my TV will zoom the HD channels when I do this. Clarity is not great, however.I don't do this, but you could.

Next HD TV I get will have a Zoom the HD channels feature or I won't buy it.I usually just watch the analog channel when I encounter this

kinglm

I'm not familiar with your TV - it seems odd that you can't zoom any signal display using the resident TV settings.

On my Sony plasma I can zoom the digital broadcasts that you describe that have the black bars.

I'm coonected via HDMI from the cable box to the TV and I have checked the settings on my Comcast box to ensure it is set to 16:9 and 1080i.

Have you tried it with HDMI?

pcsgrp

I have FIOS with a DVR box. When I go into the menu, it only gives me the option of 480i,480p,720p,1080i,stretch or none for the 4:3overide. Does this mean that I can let the box pass native resolution?

billinprinceto

POINT OF INFORMATION:

If the screen does not display full screen 16:9, then it is not HD.

so when you see the networks or other stations (even on their HD broadcast channels) display a picture with black bars, it's not HD.
Good example of this is TNT HD channel; programs are great in HD, but the commercials, promos, leaders, and etc. are all over the map from 4:3, letterbox, stretched, etc. - really funny.

billinprinceto

I, too, have FIOS with the Moto box (QIP6416).
First (IMO) forget "stretch" completely!!!!
I have found that what works best for me is to set the the box for 720p and use the TV for any additional adjustments. My TV is 32" and I can't see any difference between 720p vs 1080i or between HDMI vs Component. If anything (and it is slight at best) I "perceive" the best results with 720p over Component.

Rick-F

Not being able to adjust aspect ratio - or use Zoom, Justify, etc. when and HD signal is present is common to MOST Panasonic fixed pixel displays. I assume they know that there is really nothing you can do to improve picture quality (you can only hurt it)-- so they do not let you manipulate it while in HD-- sometimes this irritating when you want to change size, even if it PQ is degraded a bit.

I have other HD TVs that permit a wide range of adjustments even while in HD--- trust me, Panasonic did the right thing. Others in the house can really get these pictures mucked up . . .

billinprinceto

Thanks for your comments. And yes, I don't doubt that there is nothing that can be done to improve (native) picture quality, and also that any manipulation will result in some degradation. However, it just seems that SD is going to be around for a while and those black bars are a real bummer. So, like looking for the fountain of youth, I would hope that my next set will provide "decent" ability "some", if not "most" of the time to scale the picture to more properly fit the 16:9 aspect ratio of the display with "minimal" degradation to PQ.

From your experience with any of your sets (or others that you may have seen) can you offer any advice on which sets or manufacturers have done the best job along these lines so far.

Lee Stewart

So if a program provider wants to show a pre 1953 movie that has been transfered from film to HD and the AR of all films prior to 1953 was 1.33 . . .it will be pillarboxed in HD . . . but that's not HD?

Everyone who owns The Adventures of Robin Hood (1933) on HD DVD say the picture is stunning.

Oh, by the way - about 50% of TNT-HD is SD upconverter to HD. Law and Order I believe is real HD.