ISF: How much better is it than Avia?

mark2626 · 12-04-2007, 01:52 PM

If I were to have two identical tv sets, one calibrated by someone who knows what they're doing with Avia, and one calibrated by an ISF tech, how noticeable would the difference in picture be? Am I going to be more than happy with the picture quality after using Avia?

Scottnot · 12-04-2007, 06:11 PM

You're going to get lots of different answers to this; maybe even some debate. But my opinion is . . . .
1) Certainly not $400 better.
2) Quite likely not even noticeable.

daleb · 12-05-2007, 08:34 AM

Avia, etc. is almost essential in setting up the display menu as a baseline for your environment (ambient lighting).
Then you can decide.

Off course the differences will be in the internal service settings of the display.
Many newer displays have more ideal settings (ie; closer to a 6500K greyscale, etc.)

Lee Stewart · 12-05-2007, 10:10 AM

There is a BIG difference between what you can do with a test disc and 5 user adjustments as opposed to a professional with $10,000 worth of analyzer equipment, over 100 adjustments . . . and the experience to know what and how to adjust.

The difference is simple . . .

The best you can do versus the best your display can do. They are NOT the same.

daleb · 12-05-2007, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Stewart

There is a BIG difference between what you can do with a test disc and 5 user adjustments as opposed to a professional with $10,000 worth of analyzer equipment, over 100 adjustments . . . and the experience to know what and how to adjust.

The difference is simple . . .

The best you can do versus the best your display can do. They are NOT the same.

Very true, but naturally the amount of difference will vary between displays which was my only point.
That's not the same as saying Avia and an ISF cal will yield the same results which certainly is not true.

fr8mvr · 12-05-2007, 10:58 AM

What you can do with AVIA and what an experienced person who can enter service modes and adjust all the important things like geometry, color temp, gray scale, overscan etc, is huge.
http://www.lionav.com/services.php
Gregg is one of the best.

daleb · 12-05-2007, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr8mvr

What you can do with AVIA and what an experienced person who can enter service modes and adjust all the important things like geometry, color temp, gray scale, overscan etc, is huge.
http://www.lionav.com/services.php
Gregg is one of the best.

Many can not appreciate the difference without seeing it. Which is certainly understandable.
SyntaxBrillian is a mfg. selling displays basically pre-calibrated.

http://www.syntaxbrillian.com/produc...ian_hdtvs.html

At the more affordable end of the scale, they make Olevia displays which are highly regarded.
If you read the lab results in various published reviews, you will find more and more displays have been approaching this standard if not fully achieving it. There has been steady improvement over the last couple of years for some brands.
And then, of course, not all displays can be calibrated to full accuracy, but the cal process can certainly improve them.

fr8mvr · 12-05-2007, 11:40 AM

I agree with you

Quote:

Many can not appreciate the difference without seeing it. Which is certainly understandable.

So many people think they have a great picture with all settings maxed out too.
Not long ago some one was asking if you ordered a TV would you spend extra to have it properly calibrated at the sales place for extra money. General consensus the majority would not spend the extra.

daleb · 12-05-2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fr8mvr

I agree with you
So many people think they have a great picture with all settings maxed out too.
Not long ago some one was asking if you ordered a TV would you spend extra to have it properly calibrated at the sales place for extra money. General consensus the majority would not spend the extra.

I'm not surprised. There was a big discussion on Sound & Vision, Letters to the Editor, same subject. It was amazing how many said they should not have to spend more if the factory did not get it right, and who says they did not get it right...?

It's all about education. While it's true it would be a big help if sets were delivered calibrated, Avia might be enough to tweak it to your own ambient lighting situation in that case.
It would certainly be a lot better out of the box than most.

I can understand "I have it set the way I like it" but they fail to realize the settings they make are very limited by the adjustments made (or not made) internally at the factory.

shahmichael@co · 12-14-2007, 01:05 AM

I can say in my case that without a dought after ISF calibration my PG was fantastic,I had used Avia disc before and could get nowhere near the clarity of a good calibrator.I will from now on get every new set calibrated,after all if you pay all that money for a good display why not see it at it's best.

daleb · 12-18-2007, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shahmichael@co

I can say in my case that without a dought after ISF calibration my PG was fantastic,I had used Avia disc before and could get nowhere near the clarity of a good calibrator.I will from now on get every new set calibrated,after all if you pay all that money for a good display why not see it at it's best.

I like the analogy some use if they buy an automobile. "I don't have to have my stock car tuned by a specialist to get every ounce of performance out of it that was designed into it at the factory."

My answer is always....no if you plan to keep it stock, but if you had to, you likely would!

Apples & Oranges in any case. (nice 'Vette BTW!)

Hammer67 · 01-13-2008, 08:28 AM

I think the newer digital sets would not gain as much as the older analog RPTV's. I had my Toshiba 57H80 calibrated by an ISF tech (paid $250) and the difference was night and day. My greyscale was way off and there weren't any menu settings to help. My whites were cool and bluish but afterwards, they were quite creamy and ivory in color. Plus, my secondary colors just exploded off the screen (purples, yellows and oranges).

Your mileage will vary but I have read and seen that the newer digital sets are quite nice out of the gate. My buddy's 50" Sony LCoS was spot on from the factory.

fr8mvr · 01-13-2008, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammer67

Your mileage will vary but I have read and seen that the newer digital sets are quite nice out of the gate. My buddy's 50" Sony LCoS was spot on from the factory.

Yes they would and how do you your friends TV was spot on? What instrumentation was used to verify it?

Scottnot · 01-13-2008, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammer67

I had my Toshiba 57H80 calibrated by an ISF tech (paid $250) and the difference was night and day. My greyscale was way off and there weren't any menu settings to help. My whites were cool and bluish but afterwards, they were quite creamy and ivory in color.

That's odd . . . "cool and bluish" would imply color temp in the range of 7000K to 8000K, while on the other hand, "creamy and ivory" would imply color temp in the range of 4000K to 5000K.
The goal of 6500K should yield a white that looks neither cool nor warm, but clean white as you would expect to see reflected from a pure white piece of paper when iluminated by "average summer sunlight plus blue skylight".

Quote:

Plus, my secondary colors just exploded off the screen (purples, yellows and oranges).

Sounds like your saturation was simply set too low and the tech simply cranked it up a notch or two.

Oh well, glad that your happy with the results.

Hammer67 · 01-13-2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottnot

That's odd . . . "cool and bluish" would imply color temp in the range of 7000K to 8000K, while on the other hand, "creamy and ivory" would imply color temp in the range of 4000K to 5000K.

The goal of 6500K should yield a white that looks neither cool nor warm, but clean white as you would expect to see reflected from a pure white piece of paper when iluminated by "average summer sunlight plus blue skylight".

Sounds like your saturation was simply set too low and the tech simply cranked it up a notch or two.

Oh well, glad that your happy with the results.

Nope...tested out at 6500k. It probably looked creamy to me as I was used to it being so blueish. I couldn't tell you what the version or type of software the guy used but it was ISF certified and he had a laptop with a USB analyzer he attached to the screen. We also electronically and mechanically focused the lenses, shrouded the interior of the cabinet to reduce light and glints. My wife even noticed the difference and she was highly skeptical.

Believe me...I am not the average consumer...I knew what I had. I had tried the DVD calibrations before and even did the 56 point convergence. My geometry and overscan were good at default.

I would say it was definitely worth it.

12-04-2007, 01:52 PM	#1
mark2626 What is HD? Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4	ISF: How much better is it than Avia? If I were to have two identical tv sets, one calibrated by someone who knows what they're doing with Avia, and one calibrated by an ISF tech, how noticeable would the difference in picture be? Am I going to be more than happy with the picture quality after using Avia?

12-05-2007, 08:34 AM	#3
daleb High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Clovis, CA Posts: 7,585	Avia, etc. is almost essential in setting up the display menu as a baseline for your environment (ambient lighting). Then you can decide. Off course the differences will be in the internal service settings of the display. Many newer displays have more ideal settings (ie; closer to a 6500K greyscale, etc.) __________________ Samsung PN50A650 plasma, Arcam AVR350, Dali Ikon6 (Vokal2&OnWalls), Outlaw Audio LFM-1EX sub, Anti-Mode 8033B, Oppo Digital BDP-83SE, Roku Digital, Furman Elite power conditioner Last edited by daleb; 12-05-2007 at 08:43 AM.

12-05-2007, 10:58 AM	#6
fr8mvr High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: The ATL Age: 51 Posts: 456	What you can do with AVIA and what an experienced person who can enter service modes and adjust all the important things like geometry, color temp, gray scale, overscan etc, is huge. http://www.lionav.com/services.php Gregg is one of the best. __________________ Samsung HL-S5086W DLP, Dish 622 DVR, Belkin Pure Vision P31 power conditioner, Toshiba HD-A2,Panasonic DMP-BD55K, Onkyo 602, Polk R20 fronts, Polk R15 rears, Polk CSi25 center,Nintendo Wii,-- Family Room Vizio VX32L LCD -in the Bar Toshiba 50H81 CRT RP, Dish 622 DVR, Pioneer DV-563A, Xbox 360 - Oldest son's room Olevia 332H 32inch LCD-Dish 211, -Youngest son's room The Margarator and a pair of JBL's on the patio.

12-14-2007, 01:05 AM	#10
shahmichael@co schoolyard Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: NOVATO,CA. Age: 52 Posts: 27	I can say in my case that without a dought after ISF calibration my PG was fantastic,I had used Avia disc before and could get nowhere near the clarity of a good calibrator.I will from now on get every new set calibrated,after all if you pay all that money for a good display why not see it at it's best. __________________ AVR-PIONEER ELITE VSX-92THX,HDTV-SONY KP51WS510,HD-DVD PLAYER TOSHIBA-A2,CD-DENON DP-460 5 DISC PLAYER,VCR-JVC TS1U S-VIDEO PLAYER,HD-DVR DIRECT TV HR 21-700,AMP-PARASOUND HCA1000A-2 CHANNEL DRIVING MAINS,RACK-BELLO 5 TIER GLASS,SUB-POLK AUDIO PSW12,MAINS-CERWIN VEGA SERIES 327,SIDE SURROUNDS-POLK AUDIO FXI-30,REAR SURROUNDS-POLK AUDIO RTI4,TURNTABLE-LUXMAN PD270 DIRECT DRIVE,MONSTER WIRING,LOGITECH-HARMONY 676 UNIVERSAL REMOTE,MONSTER-2600II POWER CONDITIONER,PIONEER-BDP 95FD BLU-RAY

01-13-2008, 08:28 AM	#12
Hammer67 Format Wars suck. Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Currently Michigan Posts: 23	I think the newer digital sets would not gain as much as the older analog RPTV's. I had my Toshiba 57H80 calibrated by an ISF tech (paid $250) and the difference was night and day. My greyscale was way off and there weren't any menu settings to help. My whites were cool and bluish but afterwards, they were quite creamy and ivory in color. Plus, my secondary colors just exploded off the screen (purples, yellows and oranges). Your mileage will vary but I have read and seen that the newer digital sets are quite nice out of the gate. My buddy's 50" Sony LCoS was spot on from the factory. __________________ Why would anyone pay over $25 for an HDMI cable? Suckers....

12-04-2007, 06:11 PM	#2
Scottnot Progress Not Perfection Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,377	You're going to get lots of different answers to this; maybe even some debate. But my opinion is . . . . 1) Certainly not $400 better. 2) Quite likely not even noticeable.

12-05-2007, 10:10 AM	#4
Lee Stewart Behold - the future! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Albuquerque, NM Age: 58 Posts: 26,406	There is a BIG difference between what you can do with a test disc and 5 user adjustments as opposed to a professional with $10,000 worth of analyzer equipment, over 100 adjustments . . . and the experience to know what and how to adjust. The difference is simple . . . The best you can do versus the best your display can do. They are NOT the same.

Similar Threads to ISF: How much better is it than Avia?
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
ISF Calibrations worth it?	Bobby Crougar	HDTV Calibration	146	10-09-2008 11:31 AM
Don't the setting differ depending on the source?	Jeff Leites	HDTV Calibration	8	08-05-2008 11:37 AM
AVIA or VIDEO ESSENTIALS	jojojojo57	HDTV Calibration	12	01-31-2005 09:27 PM