Would you purchase an ISF calibrated display?

d6500k · 08-02-2007, 05:49 PM

If it were made available, would you buy a factory fresh display with all warranties intact that had been calibrated to ISF/SMPTE specs for a darkened room?

Here is why I ask.

I was "headhunted" to become a consultant with a good sized, medium high volume, first tier CE dealership. During the negotiation process, I tossed the idea out to the principles that it would be completely possible for me to set up a small on site studio where I could simulate most viewing environments found in semi to serious HT situations.

It would be possible for me to "preset" any number of user "modes" to fit different in home scenarios. The client would then have the option of choice between a well calibrated "cinema mode" as well as others for less critical viewing. Those "others" would allow all range necessary to overcome less than ideal environmental settings/input discrepancies.

The "base cost" would be on par with the MAP price* and below. Of course, shipping would be added to the price.

The actual cost for the calibration would be an additional $200. This amount would cover the R&R from the original carton and the full calibration of an HDMI input and a component input.

A signal generator would be used to input necessary patterns so the display would be normalized for consumer input gear.

The caveats are as follows.

I personally like to have the display "run-in" for a min. of 50 hours. We are not seeing the drastic changes with the digital displays that we used to see with analog gear although. This may make the "run-in" issue moot. In reality today, I just like to know that the display is not prone to a failure of internal components, which normally happens in the first few days. It could be possible to allow this “run-in” with a slight increase in the cost and a few more days between purchase and the shipping/pick-up date.

Another big issue is that I'm trained to calibrate to the clients environment. Then I can take into consideration the room’s light and display placement etc. If the client knows that the "cinema" setting is to be used when the lights are low, and the other presets are for increased amounts of ambient light, this point also becomes less of a factor than with low output analog sets.

Finally, the data stream issue. In days past there were major output variances from input sources such as DVD players and other gear. Today those variances are very small as the production runs are of higher quality even in budget consumer gear.

So, I'm asking you....

If you could have your new (place manufacturer here) display calibrated to ISF/SMPTE standards, sent to you or picked up all neatly boxed, would it be something you would consider? Again, the basic price of the unit would be comparable to your best deal available, with the addition of the calibration.

Documentation would be with the display in the form of graphical before/after analysis and a calibration report containing the absolute user/service settings adjusted to the calibrated state.

Thanks for any and all input/suggestions.

Doug k

*MAP price is the minimum advertised price allowed by first tier manufacturers.

DSNY FN · 08-02-2007, 09:24 PM

I would certainly consider this but I would almost certainly want both HDMI port calibrated one for my HD DVD player and one for my HD PVR sat reciever.

d6500k · 08-03-2007, 12:36 AM

Quote:

I would almost certainly want both HDMI port (s) calibrated one for my HD DVD player and one for my HD PVR sat reciever.

Since each case could be customized, calibration of two or more inputs would never be a problem.

It may not be necessary for two reasons although.

1. Almost all digital displays from all manufacturers have global controls for the HDMI inputs. In other words, if one is calibrated, they all are. In the rare instance where that is not the case, both or more inputs could be preset in the manner described in my first post.

2. Most new AVR's (audio video recievers) double as switchers. Many even output any/all input sources via a single HDMI to display interconnect. This would negate the need for multiple display inputs requiring additional calibration.

Again, each display/owners needs could be addressed if necessary.

Doug k

brenner · 08-03-2007, 11:42 AM

I would rather have it done in my home theater room. One of the main reasons is I enjoy watching the calibrator work on my set and explaining what he is doing. But that's just me. Someone else might not want to go through this.
Another thing I wonder about-
I was told it should be calibrated using the cables I plan on using. Now there may not be a lot of difference between cables. But then again not all cables are created equal.
I still think it is a good idea though. I think a lot of people buy a TV and that is as far as it goes. Take it home, plug it in and live with a red push for the rest of the life of the TV.

d6500k · 08-03-2007, 11:16 PM

Quote:

One of the main reasons is I enjoy watching the calibrator work on my set and explaining what he is doing. But that's just me

It is not "just you". It is one of the things I really enjoy about my job, the being able to chat with the client and to answer any questions that arise. Also, it is just plain better to use your datastream, although the cables are a very minor reason as measurements quantify. It is also important, as I noted above, to calibrate to "the room".

The reason for a pre-calibrated display it to indeed address the

Quote:

a lot of people buy a TV and that is as far as it goes. Take it home, plug it in and live with (it)

Now that I'm seeing a store full of displays that are sold with stock/vivid settings, it actually pains me to know that 90+% of folks will just "live with it". I can only hope they will stumble onto the "cinema/movie" settings by chance and then give that setting a chance , even though it will still be only marginally closer to accuracy.

My point is that for those that do not wish to be a part of the calibration, they would still be able to procure an accurate display with the least hassle on their part.

Doug k

anythingwt · 08-04-2007, 12:00 AM

It should have been this way all along in my opinion. I don't understand why these new HDTV sets nowadays still come completely uncalibrated out of the box. The sad part, is that i'm sure the average J6P purchasing an HDTV, would not even think to change ANY of the video settings out of the box. And as we all know, a brand new HDTV out of the box has pretty ridiculous pre-sets. I would absolutely purchase a pre-calibrated set. The only thing that would make it tough though, as you mentioned, is that you don't know what the lighting will be in this particular HT, and what they will be hooking up to the HDMI and components. Regardless, the average HT enthusiast would more than likely grab the pre-ISFed set over the standard set any day.

pappylap · 08-04-2007, 06:20 PM

I think it could be a great service......however,the biggest drawback I see is that the average consumer is so used to torch mode that they often mistake a properly calibrated set as being too dark, not enough contrast...and if the calibrator is not there to point out the benefits of properly balanced color and light dark settings...to show details they were not getting before I'm afraid they are going to be disappointed...

Lee Stewart · 08-04-2007, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pappylap

I think it could be a great service......however,the biggest drawback I see is that the average consumer is so used to torch mode that they often mistake a properly calibrated set as being too dark, not enough contrast...and if the calibrator is not there to point out the benefits of properly balanced color and light dark settings...to show details they were not getting before I'm afraid they are going to be disappointed...

This would be done at the time of sale in the showroom. Lighting is controled. All is explained to the potential buyer. If he doesn't think it has value - no sale and he buys a normal set - not a calibrated one.

But at least he is given an opportunity to see what the max performance of a mass produced HDTV would look like, when calibrated by a professional, as opposed to himself and his $25 calibration disc. . . .with 5 adjustments.

pappylap · 08-04-2007, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d6500k

It would be possible for me to "preset" any number of user "modes" to fit different in home scenarios. The client would then have the option of choice between a well calibrated "cinema mode" as well as others for less critical viewing. Those "others" would allow all range necessary to overcome less than ideal environmental settings/input discrepancies.

So, I'm asking you....

If you could have your new (place manufacturer here) display calibrated to ISF/SMPTE standards, sent to you or picked up all neatly boxed, would it be something you would consider? Again, the basic price of the unit would be comparable to your best deal available, with the addition of the calibration.

Am I missing something Lee? I think he said preset and shipped to you...

I'm all for it by the way, may give calibration a big boost...

d6500k · 08-04-2007, 10:26 PM

Quote:

I can only hope they will stumble onto the "cinema/movie" settings by chance and then give that setting a chance, even though it will still be only marginally closer to accuracy.

Quote:

I don't understand why these new HDTV sets nowadays still come completely un-calibrated out of the box. The sad part, is that I’m sure the average J6P purchasing an HDTV, would not even think to change ANY of the video settings out of the box

The cinema/movie/warm one or two, generally are a bunch closer than OOB and this is from the factory.

They are not (manufacturers) predisposed to calibrate them in their factories, as it would increase the cost to the consumer significantly. They do not look at costs as we do. If something costs them $2, they have margins that mandate an approximate wholesale price increase to $10. Thus, a $200 end of line calibration may cost you, the consumer, $1000 and you can add the dealership margin to that!

An ISF calibrator working at the end of the supply chain, and not having the travel time, interconnect check time, chit-chat time, set-up time etc., could reduce the cost to the end consumer of an in home calibration by 30% or more. He'd be happy, you'd be happy, the dealership should be happy and the manufacturer should be happy. A possible win-win-win-win.

We must not let the Gov’t become involved!

Quote:

This would be done at the time of sale in the showroom. Lighting is controlled. All is explained to the potential buyer. If he doesn't think it has value - no sale and he buys a normal set - not a calibrated one

I know that dealerships will not do this, as much as it seems the ideal solution. J6P, a perfect description btw, would never ever pick the calibrated display. Never. To become an enthusiast requires some effort, study and desire. J6P may get to that point with luck. If he does, the chances of getting a "pre-calibrated" display will increase exponentially form manufacturers.

Quote:

The only thing that would make it tough though, as you mentioned, is that you don't know what the lighting will be in this particular HT, and what they will be hooking up to the HDMI and components

This is my biggest concern. As few as two years ago I would have been livid at the very thought of "pre calibration". Impossible would have been a term I'd probably have used.

Here is what has changed...

1. The displays. They almost all can now make very decent blacks, the most critical base parameter upon which all other settings will be built. Add to this that most displays have CT (Color Temperature) controls as well as color management controls in the open or easily accessible by ISF techs. (Thanks again to the ISF for staying on top of the situation with manufacturers that drift from time to time).

2. The general public. What used to be an esoteric minority of consumers (HT Enthusiasts) are becoming better informed and demanding more from each iteration of displays. Forums such as this one, AVS, HT Theater, HT Forum etc, are learning centers where J6P is becoming an informed consumer. Well on the way towards being an enthusiast.

I really truly appreciate your input fellas. Sure, I'm one who might benefit if a plan such as this survives. More work is usually better than less work. On the other hand, the possibility of an Ht guy being able to order a calibrated display (plug and play style) seems possible given he knows that the display would need to be viewed in a controlled room and connected properly. I see less than 3 paragraphs of additional instructions added to the Owners manual. Followed, these instructions would lead to very nearly perfect images from film and HD content.

Thanks again for the input,

Doug k

brenner · 08-06-2007, 05:23 PM

Doug,
This statement has me curious:

Quote:

They are not (manufacturers) predisposed to calibrate them in their factories, as it would increase the cost to the consumer significantly.

I was told that Runco LCD TV's are calibrated from the factory. If true, it is certainly reflected in the price.
Are there any other manufacturers that pre-calibrate?

Allin4greeN · 08-06-2007, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brenner

...I was told that Runco LCD TV's are calibrated from the factory. If true, it is certainly reflected in the price.
Are there any other manufacturers that pre-calibrate?

I think Olevia's doing it on their 7 series (models w/HQV)...?

d6500k · 08-07-2007, 01:33 AM

Runco indeed calibrates to standards in much the same fashion fashion as I'm proposing. Their (Runco's) prices are due to excellent components and R&D surpassing all mass production display manufacturers.

Olevia, if memorys serves, has teamed with Brillian/Syntax. While there are ISF memories available for calibration in service, the displays are not accurately calibrated before shipment.

Many displays now do have color temperature presets that approximate the 6500k color temperature standard. The issue with these sets is that while attainment of 6500k is approached, the displays are far from color alignment at D65, the actual color point where the primary colors (red, green and blue) are "even" from black to white. When there is little or no deviation from from this D65 point, the color of grey, from black to white will have no tint whatsoever.

That is the rub. Deviation from D65 produces delta errors that can be numerically quantified and visually seen in greyscale ramps and patternsn not to mention actual media. A display can measure 6500k with a delta e of 25 or more/less (error factor from D65) This will produce images biased towards any of the primary colors even though the ct may be 6500k.

I'll try to post a graphical analysis illustrating this here...

This is a recent upper tier Pioneer plasma.

The first is before calibration and the display was tested in the movie mode that measured to within 400k of the optimum 6500k standard. Delta e's varied from 11 to 19, 20 to 100 IRE. Pretty close and far better than some.

The second graph is illustrating the RGB alignment "dialed in". Delta errors averaging >2.

This accuracy can be attained along with proper black and white levels for a display shipped "new".

Doug k

Chris Gerhard · 08-07-2007, 07:18 AM

Nice thread and discussion of the value of ISF calibration. I think the business you suggest is certainly viable. I can do better than most with DVE or Avia after years of trying, but I can't match what the professionals with the right equipment can accomplish.

Chris

08-02-2007, 05:49 PM	#1
d6500k ISF Technician Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Oregon Age: 56 Posts: 1,038	Would you purchase an ISF calibrated display? If it were made available, would you buy a factory fresh display with all warranties intact that had been calibrated to ISF/SMPTE specs for a darkened room? Here is why I ask. I was "headhunted" to become a consultant with a good sized, medium high volume, first tier CE dealership. During the negotiation process, I tossed the idea out to the principles that it would be completely possible for me to set up a small on site studio where I could simulate most viewing environments found in semi to serious HT situations. It would be possible for me to "preset" any number of user "modes" to fit different in home scenarios. The client would then have the option of choice between a well calibrated "cinema mode" as well as others for less critical viewing. Those "others" would allow all range necessary to overcome less than ideal environmental settings/input discrepancies. The "base cost" would be on par with the MAP price* and below. Of course, shipping would be added to the price. The actual cost for the calibration would be an additional $200. This amount would cover the R&R from the original carton and the full calibration of an HDMI input and a component input. A signal generator would be used to input necessary patterns so the display would be normalized for consumer input gear. The caveats are as follows. I personally like to have the display "run-in" for a min. of 50 hours. We are not seeing the drastic changes with the digital displays that we used to see with analog gear although. This may make the "run-in" issue moot. In reality today, I just like to know that the display is not prone to a failure of internal components, which normally happens in the first few days. It could be possible to allow this “run-in” with a slight increase in the cost and a few more days between purchase and the shipping/pick-up date. Another big issue is that I'm trained to calibrate to the clients environment. Then I can take into consideration the room’s light and display placement etc. If the client knows that the "cinema" setting is to be used when the lights are low, and the other presets are for increased amounts of ambient light, this point also becomes less of a factor than with low output analog sets. Finally, the data stream issue. In days past there were major output variances from input sources such as DVD players and other gear. Today those variances are very small as the production runs are of higher quality even in budget consumer gear. So, I'm asking you.... If you could have your new (place manufacturer here) display calibrated to ISF/SMPTE standards, sent to you or picked up all neatly boxed, would it be something you would consider? Again, the basic price of the unit would be comparable to your best deal available, with the addition of the calibration. Documentation would be with the display in the form of graphical before/after analysis and a calibration report containing the absolute user/service settings adjusted to the calibrated state. Thanks for any and all input/suggestions. Doug k *MAP price is the minimum advertised price allowed by first tier manufacturers. __________________ Website: www.6500kcalibrations.com Serving Oregon, Washington and Idaho. Twice yearly tours to St. Petersburg/Tampa Fla. & Southernmost Texas.

08-02-2007, 09:24 PM	#2
DSNY FN High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: London Ont Canada Age: 40 Posts: 2,273	I would certainly consider this but I would almost certainly want both HDMI port calibrated one for my HD DVD player and one for my HD PVR sat reciever. __________________ HD IS THE ONLY WAY Bedroom setup Viewsonic N2752w Xpressvue 6100 Toshiba HD A2 Harmony 520 Livingroom setup Samsung HL-S5687WX Toshiba HD-DVD XA2 Xpressvue HD PVR Denon 3801 PSB Full surround Harmony 880 Nintendo GC Nintendo Wii (this console rocks) Mario Kart Wii friend code 4768-8283-5991

08-03-2007, 11:42 AM	#4
brenner HD Rules Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Vancouver, USA Age: 58 Posts: 2,006	I would rather have it done in my home theater room. One of the main reasons is I enjoy watching the calibrator work on my set and explaining what he is doing. But that's just me. Someone else might not want to go through this. Another thing I wonder about- I was told it should be calibrated using the cables I plan on using. Now there may not be a lot of difference between cables. But then again not all cables are created equal. I still think it is a good idea though. I think a lot of people buy a TV and that is as far as it goes. Take it home, plug it in and live with a red push for the rest of the life of the TV. __________________ Pioneer Elite Pro FHD-1 LG LSS-3200A Satellite Box Pioneer CLD-97 LD Player w/AC-3 mod Toshiba HD-XA2 HD DVD player Onkyo DV-HD805 HD DVD player Monitor S series speakers Velodyne Mini-Vee Yamaha RX-V1800 receiver MX-850 Aeros Remote

08-04-2007, 12:00 AM	#6
anythingwt one love Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 4,408	It should have been this way all along in my opinion. I don't understand why these new HDTV sets nowadays still come completely uncalibrated out of the box. The sad part, is that i'm sure the average J6P purchasing an HDTV, would not even think to change ANY of the video settings out of the box. And as we all know, a brand new HDTV out of the box has pretty ridiculous pre-sets. I would absolutely purchase a pre-calibrated set. The only thing that would make it tough though, as you mentioned, is that you don't know what the lighting will be in this particular HT, and what they will be hooking up to the HDMI and components. Regardless, the average HT enthusiast would more than likely grab the pre-ISFed set over the standard set any day. __________________ "your dreams, minus your doubts, equal your reality"

08-04-2007, 06:20 PM	#7
pappylap Poopmaster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Way over Yonder Age: 4 Posts: 2,876	I think it could be a great service......however,the biggest drawback I see is that the average consumer is so used to torch mode that they often mistake a properly calibrated set as being too dark, not enough contrast...and if the calibrator is not there to point out the benefits of properly balanced color and light dark settings...to show details they were not getting before I'm afraid they are going to be disappointed... __________________ Bar Wench...Where's my Waffle! You can checkout anytime you like but you can never leave.." 50"Pioneer KURO 111FD Pro Elite Pioneer BD320 Blu-ray player Pioneer VSX-919AH A/V Receiver 32" & 37" Olevia LCDs Sony DHG HDD 500 gig DVR Samsung DTBH260 Digital Tuner One Roll of Charmin Quilted Plus in each Bathroom...

08-07-2007, 07:18 AM	#14
Chris Gerhard High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 8,207	Nice thread and discussion of the value of ISF calibration. I think the business you suggest is certainly viable. I can do better than most with DVE or Avia after years of trying, but I can't match what the professionals with the right equipment can accomplish. Chris

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