Specifications for HD DVD

Lee Stewart · 09-21-2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoob

Lately there is a lot of buzz about 24p. What percentage of displays accept 24p? (Not being sarcastic, I really don't know)

Less than 1%

BobY · 09-21-2007, 10:13 AM

It's a "futures" thing.

There is no doubt in my mind that we are heading to a point where practically all HD displays will be 1080p, will accept 1080p/24 and 1080p/60 inputs and will offer screen refresh at a multiple of 24Hz.

Scoob · 09-21-2007, 10:15 AM

Thanks Lee. It is interesting there is so much talk about it when so few can actually take advantage of it. I was telling my bro inlaw about the new 24p firmware update for his HD-XA2 and that he needed to keep his eye out for his update. But I bet his TV doesn't even accept the 24p signal. (1080p Sharp Aquos)

Lee Stewart · 09-21-2007, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoob

Thanks Lee. It is interesting there is so much talk about it when so few can actually take advantage of it. I was telling my bro inlaw about the new 24p firmware update for his HD-XA2 and that he needed to keep his eye out for his update. But I bet his TV doesn't even accept the 24p signal. (1080p Sharp Aquos)

Nope - his TV can't do it.

BobY · 09-21-2007, 11:18 AM

Most of the HDTV's that are already in consumers homes won't accept 1080p at all.

And most of them aren't even 1080p displays.

Based on that, we shouldn't care about 1080p output or 1080p/24, but as I said, this is all about futures. If I'm buying a player now, I want to make sure it has the features I will want a few years down the road.

**PFC5** · 09-21-2007, 12:29 PM

I think the reason that 1080p/24Fps is getting so much "air time" is because a lot of people buying HD players now are "enthusiasts" and a few have Front Projectors that are more likely to have the ability to accept and properly display 1080p/24Fps.

For the average person it is mostly meaningless for a few more years I think. Unless you are willing to spend about twice the money for the same size display just to get this feature.

Stew4HD · 09-21-2007, 02:29 PM

Well said guys. IMO, 1080p and 1080p/24 have become buzz words that CE compaines have found that they can charge more for. Does it cost more to produce equipment that can play and display 1080p vs 1080i? My guess is that it isn't as much as they charge.

Lee Stewart · 09-21-2007, 03:10 PM

Keep in mind that the feature is worthless when watching video based content - only good for movies watching. Some claim to see a difference while others don't.

BobY · 09-21-2007, 04:12 PM

Not strictly true.

Most HD dramas on TV are captured at 1080p/24 and interlaced and pulled-down for transmission. If the display can properly detect frame cadence, it can convert the transmission back to 1080p/24 for display.

The big issue is, if your display does not have a refresh rate that is a multiple of 24Hz (say, 72Hz or 120Hz), it won't make any difference, as refreshing a screen at 60Hz with a 1080p/24 signal results in the same judder as if it was a 1080p/24 signal pulled down to 1080i/30.

**PFC5** · 09-21-2007, 06:30 PM

And just to add. AFAIK, NONE of the current 120Hz LCD panels being sold have a straight 120Hz frequency. They are just doubling the 60Hz frequency so that will STILL require the use of 3:2 pulldown, which defeats the purpose of sending 1080p/24Fps.

**PFC5** · 10-14-2007, 02:03 PM

He is a troll and is full of it. He knows (or should if he knows anything) that:

BD was designed with that extra storage space BECAUSE it originated as a recording tech before AVC (mpeg4) or VC-1 came along. It was designed for the space/bandwidth hog MPEG2. They also wanted to avoid licensing of the HD audio codecs and opted to use the space/bandwidth hog uncompressed LPCM too.

THIS is the reason it came with the higher space/bandwidth in the spec. It NEEDED it for how they planned to do video & sound with it.

By the way, when the TL HD51 disc comes and possibly the DL HD34 they will get an automatic bandwidth increase just because the data is closer together on the 17GB per layer. It has 13.33% more density so it will pick up a 13.33% increase in bandwidth just because of this.

I can copy/paste too troll! Stop posting the same BS in multiple places please. I know your sole purpose here is to annoy everyone, but please stop being such an ass.

BNCR · 11-21-2007, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

And just to add. AFAIK, NONE of the current 120Hz LCD panels being sold have a straight 120Hz frequency. They are just doubling the 60Hz frequency so that will STILL require the use of 3:2 pulldown, which defeats the purpose of sending 1080p/24Fps.

120 is a multiple of 24. No further processing should be required by the display. The projectors and other displays from different manufactures all use different methods to get you down to 24p including dividing down to 60hz and still doing 3:2 pulldown. 24p @ 120hz looses any filminess it had and looks like hyper-real HD originated video. Faster scan rates are great for sports though. (nothing to do with playing discs)

**PFC5** · 11-21-2007, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BNCR

120 is a multiple of 24. No further processing should be required by the display. The projectors and other displays from different manufactures all use different methods to get you down to 24p including dividing down to 60hz and still doing 3:2 pulldown. 24p @ 120hz looses any filminess it had and looks like hyper-real HD originated video. Faster scan rates are great for sports though. (nothing to do with playing discs)

I imagine there is some real truth to losing the "filminess" if you use the higher refresh/scan rates with 24Fps output from a player, but that is the only way to lose the judder. Many people think it is a fair trade off, but it is personal taste IMO.

My point was to state that most (some have now come out with true 120hz refresh rate), are basically cheating when they say it has 120hz refresh rate. It is important to make sure that any 120hz display you buy also can do 5:5 pull-down (24x5=120) or else it likely is NOT a true 120hz display, but rather just takes the 60hz and doubles it.

BNCR · 11-21-2007, 01:43 PM

You are correct that they are basically frame doubling 60hz to 120hz.

From Sony...Same thing on the new Samsungs that say they do 120hz.

"Motionflow™ 120 Hz with Full HD high frame rate capability

Taking motion performance to the next level requires innovation and expertise. Enter Sony's Motionflow™ High Frame Rate technology. Motionflow™ detects the incoming video signal and applies the appropriate processing for optimum motion reproduction. Taking full advantage of film sourced 24fps encoded content available on DVD and Blu-ray Disc, Motionflow™ eliminates the need for 3:2 pulldown and delivers smooth, judder free video, faithfully preserving the integrity of the original film. When 60fps content is detected, Motionflow™ doubles the amount of frames and uses real-time calculation to create a new level of natural motion reproduction. You'll experience movies and sports with a greater sense of realism than ever before."

Basically this is all a bunch of tricks. Remember that 24 FPS is the standard framerate that is used on all film originated movies.

IMHO all the players should output 24p (or24fps) natively and all displays should be able to display the film in 24p.

Most modern film projectors use a shutter that shows each frame twice, basically doing mechanical doubling while the frame of film is stopped in the projector gate.

In camera shutter angle is often variable to produce a more jittery effect through a shorter exposure. "Saving Private Ryan" beach landing scene is a great example of narrow shutter angle. I wonder what that looks like at "120hz"? LOL

"Jitter" and grain are part of film. You are only sampling the visual world 24 times per second.

Cheers.

BobY · 11-26-2007, 12:01 AM

All of the 120Hz refresh displays are, in fact, 120Hz refresh, they update the screen every 8.33mS versus every 16.67mS for a 60Hz refresh.

The question is where does the information come from for those extra refreshes?

Some 120Hz displays, blank the screen every other frame, essentially inserting a blank frame between each of the 60 video frames each second. This eliminates the blurring that occurs with LCD's when your eye detects the not-instantaneous transition from one frame to the next. By blanking between each real frame, each new video frame starts from "ground zero" and there is no interaction between the previous frame and the new frame. In effect this acts like a shutter on a film projector by hiding the transition between frames.

Some 120Hz displays interpolate a new frame between each of the 60 video frames each second. This smooths out the motion compared to a 60Hz refresh and simulates how the video would have looked had it been captured at 120 Frames-per-second. It cannot, however, violate sampling theory. If there are motion errors in a scene as a result of high-speed action not being captured properly at 60 Frames-per-second, those errors will still be there, whereas they may not have occurred if the video had been truly captured at 120 Frames-per-second.

The 120Hz displays we'd like for 24 Frames-per-second playback would take each of the 24 film frames each second and display it repeatedly, for 5 sequential screen refreshes (somewhat inaccurately referred to as 5:5 pull-down as there is no "pull-down" occurring at all in the historical sense, however it does convey what is actually happening relative to 3:2 pull-down). Refreshing the screen at a 5 times higher rate than the frame rate but repeatedly displaying each frame 5 times is the same as displaying each frame once at 1/5th the refresh rate, or 24 Frames-per-second in this case.

Unless the display supports 5:5 pull-down, it doesn't matter if it has a 120Hz refresh, it will still add judder to 24 Fps film content.

09-21-2007, 10:15 AM	#18
Scoob High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 331	Thanks Lee. It is interesting there is so much talk about it when so few can actually take advantage of it. I was telling my bro inlaw about the new 24p firmware update for his HD-XA2 and that he needed to keep his eye out for his update. But I bet his TV doesn't even accept the 24p signal. (1080p Sharp Aquos) __________________ Panasonic 50PZ80U 1080p Plasma Vizio 37 inch 720p LCD 20 GB PS3 Toshiba HD-A1 HD DVD player Philips BDP 7200 Blu-ray Player Onkyo TX-SR605 Audio reciever Canon Vixia HF100 HD camcorder

09-21-2007, 12:29 PM	#21
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 28,349	I think the reason that 1080p/24Fps is getting so much "air time" is because a lot of people buying HD players now are "enthusiasts" and a few have Front Projectors that are more likely to have the ability to accept and properly display 1080p/24Fps. For the average person it is mostly meaningless for a few more years I think. Unless you are willing to spend about twice the money for the same size display just to get this feature. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier

09-21-2007, 02:29 PM	#22
Stew4HD High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 9,068	Well said guys. IMO, 1080p and 1080p/24 have become buzz words that CE compaines have found that they can charge more for. Does it cost more to produce equipment that can play and display 1080p vs 1080i? My guess is that it isn't as much as they charge. __________________ ___________________________________

09-21-2007, 06:30 PM	#25
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 28,349	And just to add. AFAIK, NONE of the current 120Hz LCD panels being sold have a straight 120Hz frequency. They are just doubling the 60Hz frequency so that will STILL require the use of 3:2 pulldown, which defeats the purpose of sending 1080p/24Fps. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier

10-14-2007, 02:03 PM	#26
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 28,349	He is a troll and is full of it. He knows (or should if he knows anything) that: BD was designed with that extra storage space BECAUSE it originated as a recording tech before AVC (mpeg4) or VC-1 came along. It was designed for the space/bandwidth hog MPEG2. They also wanted to avoid licensing of the HD audio codecs and opted to use the space/bandwidth hog uncompressed LPCM too. THIS is the reason it came with the higher space/bandwidth in the spec. It NEEDED it for how they planned to do video & sound with it. By the way, when the TL HD51 disc comes and possibly the DL HD34 they will get an automatic bandwidth increase just because the data is closer together on the 17GB per layer. It has 13.33% more density so it will pick up a 13.33% increase in bandwidth just because of this. I can copy/paste too troll! Stop posting the same BS in multiple places please. I know your sole purpose here is to annoy everyone, but please stop being such an ass. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier

09-21-2007, 10:13 AM	#17
BobY What's all this, then?... Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,197	It's a "futures" thing. There is no doubt in my mind that we are heading to a point where practically all HD displays will be 1080p, will accept 1080p/24 and 1080p/60 inputs and will offer screen refresh at a multiple of 24Hz.

09-21-2007, 11:18 AM	#20
BobY What's all this, then?... Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,197	Most of the HDTV's that are already in consumers homes won't accept 1080p at all. And most of them aren't even 1080p displays. Based on that, we shouldn't care about 1080p output or 1080p/24, but as I said, this is all about futures. If I'm buying a player now, I want to make sure it has the features I will want a few years down the road.

09-21-2007, 03:10 PM	#23
Lee Stewart Behold - the future! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Albuquerque, NM Age: 58 Posts: 25,188	Keep in mind that the feature is worthless when watching video based content - only good for movies watching. Some claim to see a difference while others don't.

09-21-2007, 04:12 PM	#24
BobY What's all this, then?... Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,197	Not strictly true. Most HD dramas on TV are captured at 1080p/24 and interlaced and pulled-down for transmission. If the display can properly detect frame cadence, it can convert the transmission back to 1080p/24 for display. The big issue is, if your display does not have a refresh rate that is a multiple of 24Hz (say, 72Hz or 120Hz), it won't make any difference, as refreshing a screen at 60Hz with a 1080p/24 signal results in the same judder as if it was a 1080p/24 signal pulled down to 1080i/30.

11-21-2007, 01:43 PM	#29
BNCR High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 388	You are correct that they are basically frame doubling 60hz to 120hz. From Sony...Same thing on the new Samsungs that say they do 120hz. "Motionflow™ 120 Hz with Full HD high frame rate capability Taking motion performance to the next level requires innovation and expertise. Enter Sony's Motionflow™ High Frame Rate technology. Motionflow™ detects the incoming video signal and applies the appropriate processing for optimum motion reproduction. Taking full advantage of film sourced 24fps encoded content available on DVD and Blu-ray Disc, Motionflow™ eliminates the need for 3:2 pulldown and delivers smooth, judder free video, faithfully preserving the integrity of the original film. When 60fps content is detected, Motionflow™ doubles the amount of frames and uses real-time calculation to create a new level of natural motion reproduction. You'll experience movies and sports with a greater sense of realism than ever before." Basically this is all a bunch of tricks. Remember that 24 FPS is the standard framerate that is used on all film originated movies. IMHO all the players should output 24p (or24fps) natively and all displays should be able to display the film in 24p. Most modern film projectors use a shutter that shows each frame twice, basically doing mechanical doubling while the frame of film is stopped in the projector gate. In camera shutter angle is often variable to produce a more jittery effect through a shorter exposure. "Saving Private Ryan" beach landing scene is a great example of narrow shutter angle. I wonder what that looks like at "120hz"? LOL "Jitter" and grain are part of film. You are only sampling the visual world 24 times per second. Cheers.

11-26-2007, 12:01 AM	#30
BobY What's all this, then?... Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 6,197	All of the 120Hz refresh displays are, in fact, 120Hz refresh, they update the screen every 8.33mS versus every 16.67mS for a 60Hz refresh. The question is where does the information come from for those extra refreshes? Some 120Hz displays, blank the screen every other frame, essentially inserting a blank frame between each of the 60 video frames each second. This eliminates the blurring that occurs with LCD's when your eye detects the not-instantaneous transition from one frame to the next. By blanking between each real frame, each new video frame starts from "ground zero" and there is no interaction between the previous frame and the new frame. In effect this acts like a shutter on a film projector by hiding the transition between frames. Some 120Hz displays interpolate a new frame between each of the 60 video frames each second. This smooths out the motion compared to a 60Hz refresh and simulates how the video would have looked had it been captured at 120 Frames-per-second. It cannot, however, violate sampling theory. If there are motion errors in a scene as a result of high-speed action not being captured properly at 60 Frames-per-second, those errors will still be there, whereas they may not have occurred if the video had been truly captured at 120 Frames-per-second. The 120Hz displays we'd like for 24 Frames-per-second playback would take each of the 24 film frames each second and display it repeatedly, for 5 sequential screen refreshes (somewhat inaccurately referred to as 5:5 pull-down as there is no "pull-down" occurring at all in the historical sense, however it does convey what is actually happening relative to 3:2 pull-down). Refreshing the screen at a 5 times higher rate than the frame rate but repeatedly displaying each frame 5 times is the same as displaying each frame once at 1/5th the refresh rate, or 24 Frames-per-second in this case. Unless the display supports 5:5 pull-down, it doesn't matter if it has a 120Hz refresh, it will still add judder to 24 Fps film content.

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