Does anyone but me feel that all these price cuts in HDDVD players means failure

Semp1 · 05-18-2007, 12:15 AM

Lets be honest the fact that they give 4 to 5 movies away when you buy a player that been price cut by almost 50 percent to me looks bad from a marketing it looks like its 2 steps from the bargain bin...

ah802 · 05-18-2007, 12:38 AM

You might have a point, but as long as there is two standards... and a solid piece of hardware in the pipe that will play both sides, I can equate this with a DVD+/- disk amalgamation. It looks like more of the extra SFX is on the HD-DVD side for now, and that alone is worth keeping.. Sony's strategy has been top notch and a lot of retailers want to be on their side and it will pay them to be pro-Sony. But over-all; industry fears Sony's monopolistic and almost suicidal zeal for product... and they've watched time and time again market failures and guess who's left holding the bag?

I'd say that with the crack of HD-DVD codes, the studios are leaning towards Blu-Ray for safety. (I wouldn't be surprised to learn of insider sabotages ) but from a more pragmatic point of view... The recent announcement of streaming TV over the internet, combined with a lack luster box office receipts (Block Buster isn't doing that well either) but skids of stanard DVD's sell like hot cakes at Costco and Wallmart..

Hollywood needs a new hit... and HD is it, they've found that even garbage has a market if it's crisp enough (like lettuce) but they don't want you sharing your fresh meals. But they were never invited to dine in my house

samcan07 · 05-18-2007, 01:09 AM

Deja-Vu

**PFC5** · 05-18-2007, 02:54 AM

Do we really need to threads started by the same OP about the exact same thing?

Chris Gerhard · 05-18-2007, 02:59 AM

No, it doesn't mean failure for HD DVD. The steep price cuts are an aggressive attempt by the second place format in this format war to gain market share. There is no other strategy possible and not doing this would guarantee failure. I do think it means Toshiba never sees a penny of profits from HD DVD, but it also likely means Toshiba loses less money than would be the case with throwing in the towel. Toshiba can only hope that enough market share is gained to attract a defector or two from Fox, Disney and LionsGate. The format war has all but guaranteed Sony and Toshiba lose money on the hardware. It appears the strategy is succeeding to some extent and Blu-ray manufacturers of course have no choice but to cut prices too. The majority of the market still sits on the sidelines with redundant formats but at these prices some are buying a player and a few discs. I am certain the losses for Toshiba on hardware are enormous and certain the Sony losses on their Blu-ray players are enormous, probably even bigger. Pioneer appears now to be the lone holdout from the price wars and hopes for a low volume/high quality Blu-ray product with a resonable margin and some profits. I don't think they can pull it off, but I don't know the quantity and margins they are working with.

Toshiba can never raise player prices now and must hope to sell enough players and gain economy of scale in the future to make a small profit per player. I see no chance Denon, Meridian, Onkyo or any other company joins in this bloodbath and sells HD DVD players now. Dual format players are the only possible profitable market, but even there the margins will be small, but expect a $700 - $800 MSRP dual format player from a few manufacturers to see if a market exists.

This whole thing is sure a mess and long term viability of either format isn't good, but the group here that lives in the short term is delighted by the lunacy. Meanwhile, DVD continues to sell well and most consumers don't even care about any of this.

Chris

Lee Stewart · 05-18-2007, 05:44 AM

Chris:

You keep saying that Toshiba is losing money on it's hardware yyet there is no proof that this is a true statement.

We know that Sony is losing money as it is well documented in the media . . . but not a peep about Toshiba.

You also say "DVD is doing well" and guess what? That is also a false statement. DVD is NOT doing well. Sales are stagnant and have been for the last year and a half.

The game console industry did $5 billion MORE business in 2005 than DVD did ($30 billion versus $25 bilion)

I understand that your "statements" are you opinion and should be regarded as such . . . but at least provide some proof or facts as opposed to FUD, which is all that you are giving us.

Stew4HD · 05-18-2007, 06:09 AM

Ummm, Toshiba has been giving away free movies with purchases since I have been involved.

Superman · 05-18-2007, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semp1

Lets be honest the fact that they give 4 to 5 movies away when you buy a player that been price cut by almost 50 percent to me looks bad from a marketing it looks like its 2 steps from the bargain bin...

Actually, the new BD player pricing shows price cuts of 50% or more from the G1 players. G2 HD DVD players are only at about a 20% cut from G1 pricing (not including the month-long sale starting May 20). That promotion wont last forever.

And Panasonic is also giving away 5 free BDs when you buy their player. So if you think HD DVD's price cuts and free movies spells failure, then by your logic, BD is dead already.

Semp1 · 05-18-2007, 10:30 AM

thats samsung giving the BDs and it makes sense since that has the worst PQ of any player on the market they have to compete since no one wants that piece of crap

Superman · 05-18-2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Semp1

thats samsung giving the BDs and it makes sense since that has the worst PQ of any player on the market they have to compete since no one wants that piece of crap

No, Samsung is giving away 4 free movies at Best Buy for this week. The new Panasonic player due soon is giving you 5 free movies in the box. It's not a sale by a store. See this thread.

BD is slashing prices between 50% and 60% off the G2 players compared their G1 players. HD DVD MSRPs have only dropped about 20%.

Sony announced a new player coming soon with an MSRP of $500 or $600. This is down almost 50% from their current offering ($1000). Pioneer announced a new player for $1000, and though this is still very expensive, it is still $500 less than their current player ($1500). Now Panasonic is announcing a $600 player, which is down from $1300 currently. Over a 50% cut.

Compare that to the price cuts Toshiba has made recently, and BD clearly is making bigger strides in the cost cutting. Percentage-wise, BD is ahead of HD DVD in lower prices for consumers.

You have your facts a little backwards, and inadvertantly just accused BD of failure because of the price cuts.

daleb · 05-18-2007, 11:11 AM

Quite honestly, I think Sony was caught quite unawares when it came on the scene. I don't know if they thought the Sony name alone would carry them, along with the other mfrs. who had their license.

That folks (present company excluded) would overlook things like CD playability and standard DVD upconversion. Not to mention greaeter exploitation of lossless audio.

One has to wonder about those things. And history says Sony does not lower prices when they think they have a superior or even competitive technology, at least never so early on.

I certainly would have expected a player that could play CDs, and also a stripped stand-alone player sprouting from the PS3.

I realize the topic is 'BD' and not solely Sony, but I only see one recognized leader for BD technology.

**PFC5** · 05-18-2007, 01:17 PM

Another thing to remember is that the "new" Panasonic BD player is not really a "new" 2G player. It is the 1G player with the firmware update adding the HD audio decoders and a 53.9% price cut.

I couldn't believe that this was true until I checked it out. This tells me that Panasonic doesn't have enough confidence in the BD format to actually spend the money to design a 2G BD player and just slashed the 1G player prices and changed the firmware.

That alone tells me that at least Panasonic's confidence in BD has eroded. I am also wondering about that Pioneer model also. It too looks surpisingly like the 1G player also. Could the staunch confidence that Pioneer has stated in BD winning begun to erode also?

Clearly, using the OP's criteria for being "desperate" just shows it is BD that is more worried at this point. I do not know how "desperate" BD companies are getting, but I think it is safe to say they are not taking a win for granted anymore.

daleb · 05-18-2007, 01:29 PM

Up until now I've been continually in favor of both formats surviving. But the more unsupported garbage I read about BD technological advantages the more I want to throw up.

samcan07 · 05-18-2007, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daleb

Up until now I've been continually in favor of both formats surviving. But the more unsupported garbage I read about BD technological advantages the more I want to throw up.

You know the new Blu ray players coming out in 2008 even make cappuccinos while the movie plays and pops the popcorn!!!

Chris Gerhard · 05-18-2007, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Another thing to remember is that the "new" Panasonic BD player is not really a "new" 2G player. It is the 1G player with the firmware update adding the HD audio decoders and a 53.9% price cut.

I couldn't believe that this was true until I checked it out. This tells me that Panasonic doesn't have enough confidence in the BD format to actually spend the money to design a 2G BD player and just slashed the 1G player prices and changed the firmware.

That alone tells me that at least Panasonic's confidence in BD has eroded. I am also wondering about that Pioneer model also. It too looks surpisingly like the 1G player also. Could the staunch confidence that Pioneer has stated in BD winning begun to erode also?

Clearly, using the OP's criteria for being "desperate" just shows it is BD that is more worried at this point. I do not know how "desperate" BD companies are getting, but I think it is safe to say they are not taking a win for granted anymore.

Too funny, Blu-ray is in first place and a handful of people here think HD DVD is doing great and Blu-ray is on the run scared. Drastic price cuts and promotions by HD DVD isn't a sign that Blu-ray is scared, that is a sign that Toshiba is trying to gain some market share, their product has been a bust so far as has Blu-ray, but Blu-ray is a lesser bust. Panasonic first generation player didn't sell very well, so they dropped the price and whether or not they will release a second generation player isn't known by me, but Panasonic probably knows.

Whether or not Toshiba selling at a loss turns out to be a good strategy isn't known yet, but it is in fact an act of desperation, the market has been poor and this is the only option.

Chris

05-18-2007, 12:15 AM	#1
Semp1 Just Go Neutral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Brooklyn. NY Age: 28 Posts: 691	Does anyone but me feel that all these price cuts in HDDVD players means failure Lets be honest the fact that they give 4 to 5 movies away when you buy a player that been price cut by almost 50 percent to me looks bad from a marketing it looks like its 2 steps from the bargain bin...

05-18-2007, 12:38 AM	#2
ah802 Visual Arts Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,241	Hollywood will cave, greed is in the cards. You might have a point, but as long as there is two standards... and a solid piece of hardware in the pipe that will play both sides, I can equate this with a DVD+/- disk amalgamation. It looks like more of the extra SFX is on the HD-DVD side for now, and that alone is worth keeping.. Sony's strategy has been top notch and a lot of retailers want to be on their side and it will pay them to be pro-Sony. But over-all; industry fears Sony's monopolistic and almost suicidal zeal for product... and they've watched time and time again market failures and guess who's left holding the bag? I'd say that with the crack of HD-DVD codes, the studios are leaning towards Blu-Ray for safety. (I wouldn't be surprised to learn of insider sabotages ) but from a more pragmatic point of view... The recent announcement of streaming TV over the internet, combined with a lack luster box office receipts (Block Buster isn't doing that well either) but skids of stanard DVD's sell like hot cakes at Costco and Wallmart.. Hollywood needs a new hit... and HD is it, they've found that even garbage has a market if it's crisp enough (like lettuce) but they don't want you sharing your fresh meals. But they were never invited to dine in my house

05-18-2007, 02:54 AM	#4
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 28,378	Do we really need to threads started by the same OP about the exact same thing? __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier

05-18-2007, 06:09 AM	#7
Stew4HD High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 9,068	Ummm, Toshiba has been giving away free movies with purchases since I have been involved. __________________ ___________________________________

05-18-2007, 11:11 AM	#11
daleb High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Clovis, CA Posts: 7,351	Quite honestly, I think Sony was caught quite unawares when it came on the scene. I don't know if they thought the Sony name alone would carry them, along with the other mfrs. who had their license. That folks (present company excluded) would overlook things like CD playability and standard DVD upconversion. Not to mention greaeter exploitation of lossless audio. One has to wonder about those things. And history says Sony does not lower prices when they think they have a superior or even competitive technology, at least never so early on. I certainly would have expected a player that could play CDs, and also a stripped stand-alone player sprouting from the PS3. I realize the topic is 'BD' and not solely Sony, but I only see one recognized leader for BD technology. __________________ Samsung PN50A650 plasma, Arcam AVR350, Dali Ikon6 (Vokal2&OnWalls), Outlaw Audio LFM-1EX sub, Anti-Mode 8033B, Oppo Digital BDP-83, Polk XM Tuner, Furman Elite power conditioner Last edited by daleb; 05-18-2007 at 11:14 AM.

05-18-2007, 01:09 AM	#3
samcan07 We're caught in a trap... Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 927	Deja-Vu

05-18-2007, 02:59 AM	#5
Chris Gerhard High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 8,207	No, it doesn't mean failure for HD DVD. The steep price cuts are an aggressive attempt by the second place format in this format war to gain market share. There is no other strategy possible and not doing this would guarantee failure. I do think it means Toshiba never sees a penny of profits from HD DVD, but it also likely means Toshiba loses less money than would be the case with throwing in the towel. Toshiba can only hope that enough market share is gained to attract a defector or two from Fox, Disney and LionsGate. The format war has all but guaranteed Sony and Toshiba lose money on the hardware. It appears the strategy is succeeding to some extent and Blu-ray manufacturers of course have no choice but to cut prices too. The majority of the market still sits on the sidelines with redundant formats but at these prices some are buying a player and a few discs. I am certain the losses for Toshiba on hardware are enormous and certain the Sony losses on their Blu-ray players are enormous, probably even bigger. Pioneer appears now to be the lone holdout from the price wars and hopes for a low volume/high quality Blu-ray product with a resonable margin and some profits. I don't think they can pull it off, but I don't know the quantity and margins they are working with. Toshiba can never raise player prices now and must hope to sell enough players and gain economy of scale in the future to make a small profit per player. I see no chance Denon, Meridian, Onkyo or any other company joins in this bloodbath and sells HD DVD players now. Dual format players are the only possible profitable market, but even there the margins will be small, but expect a $700 - $800 MSRP dual format player from a few manufacturers to see if a market exists. This whole thing is sure a mess and long term viability of either format isn't good, but the group here that lives in the short term is delighted by the lunacy. Meanwhile, DVD continues to sell well and most consumers don't even care about any of this. Chris

05-18-2007, 05:44 AM	#6
Lee Stewart Behold - the future! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Albuquerque, NM Age: 58 Posts: 25,193	Chris: You keep saying that Toshiba is losing money on it's hardware yyet there is no proof that this is a true statement. We know that Sony is losing money as it is well documented in the media . . . but not a peep about Toshiba. You also say "DVD is doing well" and guess what? That is also a false statement. DVD is NOT doing well. Sales are stagnant and have been for the last year and a half. The game console industry did $5 billion MORE business in 2005 than DVD did ($30 billion versus $25 bilion) I understand that your "statements" are you opinion and should be regarded as such . . . but at least provide some proof or facts as opposed to FUD, which is all that you are giving us.

05-18-2007, 10:30 AM	#9
Semp1 Just Go Neutral Join Date: May 2005 Location: Brooklyn. NY Age: 28 Posts: 691	thats samsung giving the BDs and it makes sense since that has the worst PQ of any player on the market they have to compete since no one wants that piece of crap

05-18-2007, 01:17 PM	#12
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 28,378	Another thing to remember is that the "new" Panasonic BD player is not really a "new" 2G player. It is the 1G player with the firmware update adding the HD audio decoders and a 53.9% price cut. I couldn't believe that this was true until I checked it out. This tells me that Panasonic doesn't have enough confidence in the BD format to actually spend the money to design a 2G BD player and just slashed the 1G player prices and changed the firmware. That alone tells me that at least Panasonic's confidence in BD has eroded. I am also wondering about that Pioneer model also. It too looks surpisingly like the 1G player also. Could the staunch confidence that Pioneer has stated in BD winning begun to erode also? Clearly, using the OP's criteria for being "desperate" just shows it is BD that is more worried at this point. I do not know how "desperate" BD companies are getting, but I think it is safe to say they are not taking a win for granted anymore. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier

05-18-2007, 01:29 PM	#13
daleb High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Clovis, CA Posts: 7,351	Up until now I've been continually in favor of both formats surviving. But the more unsupported garbage I read about BD technological advantages the more I want to throw up. __________________ Samsung PN50A650 plasma, Arcam AVR350, Dali Ikon6 (Vokal2&OnWalls), Outlaw Audio LFM-1EX sub, Anti-Mode 8033B, Oppo Digital BDP-83, Polk XM Tuner, Furman Elite power conditioner

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