ps3 vs. toshiba hd-dvd players out already

winpitt · 05-20-2006, 10:10 AM

It lost before it got started. When IBM and MS split, OS/2 was DOA. Warp was a non-starter that had no chance as there were already too many NT networks being deployed, so the battle was simply for 2nd place. That left Novell and Banyan really. Again, Warp never had a chance even if it were given away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

winpitt:

In my eyes, there is no question MS has behaved & bullied PC companies like a monopoly. Making PC cos pay OS licensing on EVERY unit sold even if a customer wanted OS/2 Warp IS bullying. How many PC users when told they have to pay for TWO OS in their machines IF they just wanted ONE that was not Windows ended up buying just Windows?

I agree completely!

**PFC5** · 05-20-2006, 10:13 AM

Funny how the site takes out the quote within a quote, so that quote of my post looks like I disagree by example, then say "I agree completely" at the end.

For the record THIS is what I agreed to at the end:

Quote:

Frankly, the BD vs HD-DVD issue is the thing smacking completely of corporate greed. Not MS.

I agree that this is off topic, so we should end it here.

strawberry · 05-20-2006, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornbread

You must not be a big fan of HD, the difference between standard DVDs and HD-DVD or BR for that matter is in the image, the stunning beauty of a life like picture. It is an altogether different experience. Have you ever seen "Sunrise Earth" on the Dicovery HD channel? Before HD could you have ever imagined a entire show with nothing on it but the sunrise? No, there is a demand for an HD player, it will succeed as more and more people buy HD sets it will be a no brainer. Three years ago people doubted HD and now every broadcaster and TV studio is embracing it. But I see your point, to each to his own, if you don't care about HD then you are correct in sitting on the sideline.

Just wanted to clarify some of this, because I'm not sure we're seeing eye to eye. The question I put to you was in regard to the average consumer- not people like us. Of course we see the value of HD picture quality. But, in order for either of these formats to supplant DVD, they're going to have to wrestle it away from the average Joe. The same average Joe that hasn't even bothered to buy an HD display yet. There are many who feel that it's going to take more than just improved picture and sound for one of these formats to get over the hump. DVD improved upon VHS in several other ways that helped it win over the consumer: special features, no rewinding, chapter points, commentary tracks, multiple languages on one disc, and a neater package with a smaller retail footprint.

The question I put to you is this: if we're supposed to be thinking outside the box (those are your words, not mine) with regard to the next-gen formats, what, if anything, can we come up with to differentiate the new formats from DVD putting picture and sound aside? Lord Gamer started a thread last week devoted to this very topic, and not a whole lot of headway got made. This is a challenge that one of these camps is going to have to meet or neither of them will survive. HD by itself may not be enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornbread

Yes it's official according to the publicity of each camp, excuse me as I remain sceptical about claims of future software. But yes, in time I am sure there will be many different software players for both HD-DVD and BR, that is what those companies do.

First of all- the presence of third party burning/playing software isn't coming from the two camps- it's coming directly from Nero, Intervideo, and Cyberlink. All of this software was demoed live on the showroom floor at CES. It's real, and it's been ready for a while- they've just been waiting for all of the delays in the launches from both camps to get over with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornbread

In the long term you are probably right that it won't be that important that HD-DVD is supported by Microsoft, but initial compatiblty and integration issues might arise with Blue Ray without Windows support and of course the drivers won't be MS certified which might effect other systems.

Actually, there's still quite a bit of doubt as to whether or not Vista will offer native HD-DVD movie playback/MC compatibility when it ships next January. MS promised native support- but they never pledged it would be from day one. Vista will read/recognize the players and discs from day one- but I wouldn't be counting on anything beyond that. Funny that you question Nero, Cyberlink, and Intervideo's ability to deliver on their promises in a timely manner but not MS's, given the amount of promises that have been made and consequently broken during the development cycle of Blackcomb/Longhorn/Vista, whatever you want to call it.

Also- you keep stating that the software drivers for BR devices won't be MS certified as if it's established fact- when to my knowledge, it isn't. Do you have anything you want to share with us on this? I've already posted a link to an MS tech. rep who basically says just the opposite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornbread

I have only heard rumors but I have heard that Vista will have an excellent stand alone HD-DVD player as part of it's operating system.

Let's leave that in the realm of rumor, then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornbread

Of course if Dell has a Blue Ray player on board it will work, that goes without saying and was never the point. The point is as HP has declared it will be more cost effective to use HD-DVD due to the imbedded player.

Everyone keeps bringing up HP's switch to neutrality as if it clearly shows the impact of MS's pledge to support HD-DVD from a cost standpoint. First of all- HP was mostly concerned with MS's take on the Mandatory Managed Copy feature and the iHD layer, and they even said so in their press release. If thier move was all about cost- then why has Dell not budged, and why is HP still going to deliver large quantities of BR-capable PC's?

Cornbread · 05-21-2006, 08:31 AM

Also I just think having iHD support in Vista will be a bonus down the road, The other camp will have to pay royalties to BD-Java for the BR interactive features. Plus the royalties for Blue Ray itself is higher than those for HD-DVD, that is one of the main reasons why the players are more expensive. I think companies like Dell will eventualy put HD-DVD drives in their machines, becuase it will be cost effective. Maybe they will eventualy have 30 GB HD-DVD drives in their low end computers and a 50 GB BR drives in their high end computers.

Yes Strawberry I will leave most of your comments without rebute because they all make sense, you have sound points. Most of what I have been saying are rumors and my personal opinion.

I personally think sound and vision will be enough to propel HD and then subsequently HD-DVD or Blue ray, HDTV and the new format players go hand in hand, they will propel each other. "Sound and Vision" magazine did a poll and have said that 25-30 million people will have HDTV sets in their homes by the end of the year and I promise you they will be hungry for HD content. The only thing that has me concerned is the economy, with VERY high gas prices and rising interest rates, many people just can't afford to make a big purchase like an HDTV. The economy is the only thing that can slow down HDTV in my opinion, because right now it's a tidal wave. I have never met anyone that said they didn't want it, only that they couldn't afford it.

winpitt · 05-22-2006, 09:23 AM

Everyone is talking about BD/HD-DVD having momentum because of the thirst for HD content. I think people are missing a very big point.

There is a very big difference between SD and HD. There's also a very big difference between progressive scan SD DVD and 480i compressed SD via broadcast/cable/DBS. There is far less difference (for the average user) between progressive scan 480p DVD w/Dolby 5.1 and HD-DVD or BD. On smaller screens, probably a very difficult to perceive improvement. On larger screens perhaps something more - depending on the original mastering of the content.

I personally think if you asked people which they want more - more network/broadcast HD or BD/HD-DVD - the answer would emphatically be the former and not the latter. There is where I personally think the "thirst for HD" really lives.

As for cost, and the penetration of HD sets in households, I wouldn't put much confidence in a S&V poll. They have a total circulation of just under 475k, all having clearly higher end interests than the general public. Add to this the fact that for either HD-DVD or BD to grow, there's the yet additional cost of a very expensive player (actually TWO) and expensive media, and my own perception is that people ought to be a little more conservative in their estimates.

Those of us here already have HD, and are clearly biased. Yet, even some of us are questioning the chaotic antics of Toshiba and Sony with respect to this so-called "standard". So just imagine all those people who haven't yet taken the HD plunge whatsoever. Do you think they'll more likely invest in an HD DVR or a questionable standard media player?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornbread

Also I just think having iHD support in Vista will be a bonus down the road, The other camp will have to pay royalties to BD-Java for the BR interactive features. Plus the royalties for Blue Ray itself is higher than those for HD-DVD, that is one of the main reasons why the players are more expensive. I think companies like Dell will eventualy put HD-DVD drives in their machines, becuase it will be cost effective. Maybe they will eventualy have 30 GB HD-DVD drives in their low end computers and a 50 GB BR drives in their high end computers.

Yes Strawberry I will leave most of your comments without rebute because they all make sense, you have sound points. Most of what I have been saying are rumors and my personal opinion.

I personally think sound and vision will be enough to propel HD and then subsequently HD-DVD or Blue ray, HDTV and the new format players go hand in hand, they will propel each other. "Sound and Vision" magazine did a poll and have said that 25-30 million people will have HDTV sets in their homes by the end of the year and I promise you they will be hungry for HD content. The only thing that has me concerned is the economy, with VERY high gas prices and rising interest rates, many people just can't afford to make a big purchase like an HDTV. The economy is the only thing that can slow down HDTV in my opinion, because right now it's a tidal wave. I have never met anyone that said they didn't want it, only that they couldn't afford it.

Jimmy Smith · 08-23-2006, 10:23 PM

Great news for the Playstation 3

According to this link not only will the Playstation 3 support Dolby TrueHD but will be the first player on either format to support DTS master audio.

**PFC5** · 08-24-2006, 03:42 AM

That is no confirmation that it will DECODE ANY HD audio formats. Those logos just mean it is capable of passing them through. I already discussed this with you and I read that thread and NOTHING other than the logos on the PS3 was confirmed. Look at your current dvd player that probably does not have the decoders in that and you will see the DD/DTS logos on that too.

According to Sony the STANDARD DD & STANDARD DTS decoders will be handled by the cell processor and not a dedicated chip like the standalone players.

When you have a link that says that the decoders are built in THEN you can post that it has been confirmed. Until then, your so called "confirmation" link/post is just FUD. You will not find a link so do not look too hard, because IF the PS3 had the advanced HD audio decoders in it, Sony WOULD HAVE stated it on the spec sheet for it.

Jimmy Smith · 08-24-2006, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

That is no confirmation that it will DECODE ANY HD audio formats. Those logos just mean it is capable of passing them through. I already discussed this with you and I read that thread and NOTHING other than the logos on the PS3 was confirmed. Look at your current dvd player that probably does not have the decoders in that and you will see the DD/DTS logos on that too.

According to Sony the STANDARD DD & STANDARD DTS decoders will be handled by the cell processor and not a dedicated chip like the standalone players.

When you have a link that says that the decoders are built in THEN you can post that it has been confirmed. Until then, your so called "confirmation" link/post is just FUD. You will not find a link so do not look too hard, because IF the PS3 had the advanced HD audio decoders in it, Sony WOULD HAVE stated it on the spec sheet for it.

Maybe but the fact that it can pass it means the Playstation 3 might not be as crappy a player as some are predicting.

junehhan · 08-24-2006, 12:31 PM

That may be possible, but noone should expect to get state of the art playback from a console unit. A console is always going to be a compromise when used for those purposes. Maybe Sony will break the trend here, but you don't see the PS2 or original Xbox getting rave reviews for their playback abilities. The X360 actually does a pretty darn good job though.

Jimmy Smith · 08-24-2006, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junehhan

That may be possible, but noone should expect to get state of the art playback from a console unit. A console is always going to be a compromise when used for those purposes. Maybe Sony will break the trend here, but you don't see the PS2 or original Xbox getting rave reviews for their playback abilities. The X360 actually does a pretty darn good job though.

Big difference though. With the Playstation 2 DVD playback was an afterthought. They really only included DVD for gaming and then added movie playback for the hell of it. With the Playstation 3 they are using it as the device to propell there format. Therefore I believe they will put more effort into this one.

strawberry · 08-24-2006, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

Maybe but the fact that it can pass it means the Playstation 3 might not be as crappy a player as some are predicting.

Bearing in mind, of course, that you'll need an HDMI 1.3-compliant AVR with built in decoders for all the advanced audio codecs in order to actually take advantage of the fact that the PS3 is passing along the audio. No such device exists right now- but my guess is that you'll be able to start buying them in 2007 for $1,000 and up.

Not really looking to bag on the PS3- I plan to get one myself. I just don't think you should have unrealistic expectations with regard to what it's going to do as a BR playback device- which, over the course of the next two years or so, is going to be relatively little when compared to the 2G and 3G players as they roll out.

**PFC5** · 08-24-2006, 03:08 PM

I bet any receiver that compares to a $600-800.00 receiver NOW but with HDMI 1.3 & the HD audio decoders will cost somewhere north of that $1000.00 mark though. Typically, they put this kind of new tech into the flagship, and next two models down before it will get into a $1k receiver.

I am sure there might be some $400-600.00 "Digital Amp" receivers that might have both of the required features above, but they will probably be comparable to a $2-300.00 receiver out there now, so you will pay a huge premium in 2007 for HDMI 1.3 AND HD audio decoders in a receiver that year. This is speculation of course, but is based on past history.

junehhan · 08-25-2006, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith

Big difference though. With the Playstation 2 DVD playback was an afterthought. They really only included DVD for gaming and then added movie playback for the hell of it. With the Playstation 3 they are using it as the device to propell there format. Therefore I believe they will put more effort into this one.

We really have no way to tell at this point in time, but let's hope that the Samsung BD player embarrassment motivates Sony to make sure they do a good job with this.

Jimmy Smith · 08-25-2006, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junehhan

We really have no way to tell at this point in time, but let's hope that the Samsung BD player embarrassment motivates Sony to make sure they do a good job with this.

Samsung player ain't that bad. Most of Blu-Rays problems are due to MPEG-2 single layer discs rather then any problem of Samsung. If Samsung was the same price as Toshibas I believe it would have been absolutly fine. However at double the price it just wasn't worth it.

**bruceames** · 08-25-2006, 12:15 PM

The Samsung probably IS a good player, and it probably IS worth it's price (The HD-A1 is worth more then 500 bucks, so it makes the BD player appear overpriced). The problem is the mpeg2 discs are making it look bad. We'll see the truth when the VC-1 BD discs and the Pioneer and Sony BD players come out.

08-24-2006, 03:42 AM	#67
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 28,355	That is no confirmation that it will DECODE ANY HD audio formats. Those logos just mean it is capable of passing them through. I already discussed this with you and I read that thread and NOTHING other than the logos on the PS3 was confirmed. Look at your current dvd player that probably does not have the decoders in that and you will see the DD/DTS logos on that too. According to Sony the STANDARD DD & STANDARD DTS decoders will be handled by the cell processor and not a dedicated chip like the standalone players. When you have a link that says that the decoders are built in THEN you can post that it has been confirmed. Until then, your so called "confirmation" link/post is just FUD. You will not find a link so do not look too hard, because IF the PS3 had the advanced HD audio decoders in it, Sony WOULD HAVE stated it on the spec sheet for it. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier

08-24-2006, 03:08 PM	#72
PFC5 Super Moderator Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 28,355	I bet any receiver that compares to a $600-800.00 receiver NOW but with HDMI 1.3 & the HD audio decoders will cost somewhere north of that $1000.00 mark though. Typically, they put this kind of new tech into the flagship, and next two models down before it will get into a $1k receiver. I am sure there might be some $400-600.00 "Digital Amp" receivers that might have both of the required features above, but they will probably be comparable to a $2-300.00 receiver out there now, so you will pay a huge premium in 2007 for HDMI 1.3 AND HD audio decoders in a receiver that year. This is speculation of course, but is based on past history. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier

05-21-2006, 08:31 AM	#64
Cornbread High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 265	Also I just think having iHD support in Vista will be a bonus down the road, The other camp will have to pay royalties to BD-Java for the BR interactive features. Plus the royalties for Blue Ray itself is higher than those for HD-DVD, that is one of the main reasons why the players are more expensive. I think companies like Dell will eventualy put HD-DVD drives in their machines, becuase it will be cost effective. Maybe they will eventualy have 30 GB HD-DVD drives in their low end computers and a 50 GB BR drives in their high end computers. Yes Strawberry I will leave most of your comments without rebute because they all make sense, you have sound points. Most of what I have been saying are rumors and my personal opinion. I personally think sound and vision will be enough to propel HD and then subsequently HD-DVD or Blue ray, HDTV and the new format players go hand in hand, they will propel each other. "Sound and Vision" magazine did a poll and have said that 25-30 million people will have HDTV sets in their homes by the end of the year and I promise you they will be hungry for HD content. The only thing that has me concerned is the economy, with VERY high gas prices and rising interest rates, many people just can't afford to make a big purchase like an HDTV. The economy is the only thing that can slow down HDTV in my opinion, because right now it's a tidal wave. I have never met anyone that said they didn't want it, only that they couldn't afford it.

08-23-2006, 10:23 PM	#66
Jimmy Smith 50>30 Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 2,998	Great news for the Playstation 3 According to this link not only will the Playstation 3 support Dolby TrueHD but will be the first player on either format to support DTS master audio.

08-24-2006, 12:31 PM	#69
junehhan High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Aug 2006 Age: 29 Posts: 5,663	That may be possible, but noone should expect to get state of the art playback from a console unit. A console is always going to be a compromise when used for those purposes. Maybe Sony will break the trend here, but you don't see the PS2 or original Xbox getting rave reviews for their playback abilities. The X360 actually does a pretty darn good job though.

08-25-2006, 12:15 PM	#75
bruceames Moderator Join Date: May 2006 Location: San Rafael, CA Posts: 10,169	The Samsung probably IS a good player, and it probably IS worth it's price (The HD-A1 is worth more then 500 bucks, so it makes the BD player appear overpriced). The problem is the mpeg2 discs are making it look bad. We'll see the truth when the VC-1 BD discs and the Pioneer and Sony BD players come out.