ps3 vs. toshiba hd-dvd players out already

maicaw · 05-19-2006, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strawberry

... There's a fear that neither BR or HD-DVD will succeed if Sony and/or Toshiba can't differentiate these new formats from DVD in any meaningful way beyond resolution and storage capacity. What do you think? ....

From an average consumer standpoint - I went for the First Betamax, , first JVC color camera + Deck system, first Osborne 1, the first SAcd, etc and I still remember the thrills of what it could be - maybe if everyone just could play with these new toys

with SAcd or DVD-A for instance, or Superbits (for Video)- even though a $2-3k audio setup will easily show the superiority of the audio formats - although the Superbit transfers are sometimes disappointing

I wouldn't expect the average consumer to pay that much attention - since most still equate DVD (and PBS etal) with actual HD - and VHS decks still sell -so the technically and functionally superior formats will probably die on the vine for lack of retail interest - too bad

Maybe one of them (BR) will survive based on it's commercially established use as a data storage medium

Quote:

Blu-ray is a very similar format to PDD, another optical disc format developed by Sony (and has been available since 2004) but offering higher data transfer speeds. PDD is not intended for home video use and is aimed towards data archival and backup use in business. The UDO format is also aimed for similar purposes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc

strawberry · 05-19-2006, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winpitt

Frankly, there is some value to the simple endorsement of a standard - regardless of any known actual benefit. If you're in advertising you should know that. After all, isn't the Ad business really about trying to create perceptions regardless of reality?

What you're saying here can be true, but it's dependent upon who's doing the endorsing. Outside of their Xbox brand- MS doesn't exactly create feelings of goodwill within the average consumer. That's definitely a lot of what we try to do on the product side, though- create the need for a brand whether there's an actual use for it or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by winpitt

Anyway, it's just frustrating that people on both sides of the BR vs HD debate seem to be myopic about "their" choice. I'm kind of laughing a bit, because I'm still in the "neither" camp at the moment.

Believe it or not- I'm in the "neither" camp, too. Things have gone crazy around here in the last couple weeks because the HD-DVD early adopters have hit the boards in full force, and while I can certainly understand the internal need to outwardly justify their recent purchase, many of them are taking far too many liberties with reality. I keep trying to state and re-state this, but these people aren't listening, and I doubt that the early BR adopters will either when it's their turn- but I'll try it again anyway: both of these products are stumbling and bumbling out of the gate. This is an experimental phase for both formats, and I really, truly do not see any decisive advantage going to either camp this year, and probably not next year either.

If I had to make a choice right now, it would be that we're sitting here fervently debating the future viability of the next SACD and DVD-Audio. I hope I'm wrong- but right now, that's about where I'm at.

winpitt · 05-19-2006, 04:49 PM

Strawberry, one item of disagreement with your last post, but mainly very strong agreement with you.

The disagreement first. Yes, MS does have some critics in terms of their image. However, it's kind of a love/hate relationship. Though everybody loves to bash them, they also sell a crap load of SW - and that crapload needs a bigger truck every day. So my position is that even though some people think they're the "evil empire", the fact is that they get respect - earned or otherwise. Frankly, I think they do a tremendous job considering, and believe they are a primary factor for much of the PC (and I'm using that term generally, not to just mean MS systems) advancements over the past 15 years. In other words, if it weren't for them, we wouldn't have a bunch of things we do have.

For the big agreement, however - I also agree that this may likely turn out to be a trivial debate with no consequence. I'm actually not sure I hope we're wrong. Maybe this fiasco will drive a broad and endorsed standard for something even better. It's really weird for me to say that. I've got the reputation for being a new technology junkie, but not in this case. If somebody were to give me a player for free, I'd certainly play with it. But I'm not about to get sucked into this with my own money.

Cornbread · 05-19-2006, 05:16 PM

Strawberry You're still not actually saying anything. I thought we were supposed to be thinking outside the box here. How does all of this translate into an altogether different experience from watching standard DVD's beyond the fact that it's in HD? I'm not trying to be difficult here- this is a very viable question that's being posed all over the net. There's a fear that neither BR or HD-DVD will succeed if Sony and/or Toshiba can't differentiate these new formats from DVD in any meaningful way beyond resolution and storage capacity. What do you think?

* You must not be a big fan of HD, the difference between standard DVDs and HD-DVD or BR for that matter is in the image, the stunning beauty of a life like picture. It is an altogether different experience. Have you ever seen "Sunrise Earth" on the Dicovery HD channel? Before HD could you have ever imagined a entire show with nothing on it but the sunrise? No, there is a demand for an HD player, it will succeed as more and more people buy HD sets it will be a no brainer. Three years ago people doubted HD and now every broadcaster and TV studio is embracing it. But I see your point, to each to his own, if you don't care about HD then you are correct in sitting on the sideline.

First of all, there's no "even if." It's official, and it has been for a while: Nero, WinDVD, and PowerDVD will all support both formats. No question about it.

*Yes it's official according to the publicity of each camp, excuse me as I remain sceptical about claims of future software. But yes, in time I am sure there will be many different software players for both HD-DVD and BR, that is what those companies do. In the long term you are probably right that it won't be that important that HD-DVD is supported by Microsoft, but initial compatiblty and integration issues might arise with Blue Ray without Windows support and of course the drivers won't be MS certified which might effect other systems.

OEM products aside- NO BR PLAYER meant for the PC will ship without a free playback solution- even if it's in a light edition. This is no different of a situation than what exists for current DVD drives. Beyond that, as I've already stated, neither Dell, Sony, nor HP will be shipping out machines with non-functioning BR drives in them.[/quote]
Nothing is free in this world youg man, the cost will be passed on down to the consumer in one way or another, it always is. The difference is Microsoft never had a stand alone DVD player that I knew of and this time they will. I have only heard rumors but I have heard that Vista will have an excellent stand alone HD-DVD player as part of it's operating system. Of course if Dell has a Blue Ray player on board it will work, that goes without saying and was never the point. The point is as HP has declared it will be more cost effective to use HD-DVD due to the imbedded player.

Cornbread · 05-19-2006, 05:24 PM

[quote=strawberry] both of these products are stumbling and bumbling out of the gate. This is an experimental phase for both formats, and I really, truly do not see any decisive advantage going to either camp this year, and probably not next year either.[quote]

What you fail to understand is Blue Ray isn't stumbling out of the gate, they haven't even left the gate yet and I don't think it's fair to say that HD-DVD has stumbled out of the gate. By all accounts they have had a pretty successful initial launch. I think you are trying to overly criticize both Blue Ray and HD-DVD to justify your "setting on the fence" approach. So you are not happy with HD-DVD or Blue Ray because you have taken the stance that "HD-DVD is not an altogether different experience from watching standard DVD's" and that's fair enough, High Definition TV is just not important to you, my wife doesn't care either so I can understand that opinion, at least now we know your true motives.

**PFC5** · 05-19-2006, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strawberry

You're starting to make this a bit personal, which is unfortunate. At any rate, you're wrong on both counts. I'm an advertising/corporate video producer, and I have to call my IT department to install so much as a font.

So you know that IT departments have orders THEY have to follow. Winnpitt is 100% correct that any OS on a corporate machine purchased WILL get wiped out and be replaced with an Standard Image approved by the highest IT people and believe me (former largest telecom IT guy here) there is TONS of red tape and conference calls that shape an image design. Been there done that.

Most of these 3 hour calls are very boring BTW, but they are long and numerous. Companies do not like changes because it costs money to pay the time for these people well above my former pay grade, and they will most likely take the path of least resistence. HD-DVD being natively supported WILL offer an edge that WILL effect the buying decisions of one brand of machines if it has uncertified hardware drivers.

Quote:

I'm aware that none of the four IT departments I've had to depend on in the workplace have ever stuck me with a DVD drive that didn't work. I'm aware that only travelling salesmen, upper management, and execs are at all likely to be travelling on airplanes with company laptops while worrying about playback of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray content. I'm also aware that most people who fit that description can get their IT dept. to install a simple codec after a five minute phone call.

That is because DVD drives ARE supported in windows via the software drivers for them inside Windows, and it is nothing to use the imbedded software driver support IN WINDOWS, which BD players will not have for enterprise wide images. This has NOTHING to do with codecs and playing movies, etc. and I think you are confusing application software (codecs, etc) with software drivers. A software driver has to do with the OS SEEING the drive (hardware) and being able to interact/communicate with it. By Vista NOT supporting BD drives in computers, it is implied that MS will not be certifying the software drivers that make them accessible in Vista. This is HUGE for most large companies because they DO NOT use uncertified drivers. PERIOD!

If they did it would put the certification & substantial costs associated with doing the certification on the backs of the company's own IT department which is almost always inadequitely funded as it is, AND at a time when companies are reducing costs not expanding them. Why would a company take on this added expense if they do not have to?

[/quote]Well, try not to let it trouble you so much. Afterall- it's not just "my own prefered" view that I'm looking at things from. The insurmountably overwhelming majority of Vista-enabled machines equipped with BR/HD-DVD drives that are sold over the next 3-4 years will be sold to home and small business users. Corporate America isn't going to be in a big rush to upgrade to Vista-enabled systems, (remember how long XP adoption took?) and, beyond that, very few of the Vista-enabled machines installed in the corporate world are going to include either a BR or HD-DVD drive. [/quote]

Fair enough about the adoption rate with Vista. I actually think based on my experience that big companies will adopt it sooner than past upgrades, unless the final product has a big learning curve. They will because of the security improvements planned.

Individuals/small businesses will have a harder time getting unsupported drives to work than IT guys will, don't you think? Windows XP or other than Vista will not recognize the HD-DVD drive as anything other than a standard DVD drive right now. Recorders absolutely will not work without those same software drivers that will be in Windows Vista or otherwise without these drivers. Using uncertified drivers will be risky, given my experiences with using them. Who wants an unstable Windows?

We can argue that MS not certifying drivers for BD players/recorders is unfair but it is besides the point and another arguement, that I would agree with. I also agree along those SAME lines that studios not supporting both formats and letting us decide is equally unfair.

Quote:

But I'm sure that it must be ever comforting for you to know that the ridiculously small handful of people that are likely to fit the description given in your example, namely executives who want to watch HD movies on their brand new Vista-enabled company laptop via an HD-DVD drive will be able to kick back and watch HD movies without first having to make a 5 minute phone call to the IT department.

See above as to WHY it isn't a 5 minute thing in companies AND most users. With users it COULD be 5-10 minutes IF all goes well with 3rd party hardware drivers that are not certified.

Quote:

You're right- you've got me there. You've won this battle of semantics by providing an example that is both functional and far-reaching. I can no longer claim that native Vista support is absolutely meaningless. You should go buy yourself a beer or something.

Your much better than this Strawberry! I know it, YOU know it, and most here know it. That was condecending and not helpful.

You know your movie magic work, the codecs and tons of other stuff that could take me 5 lifetimes to know about what you do for a living, but we do not know a lot about how the workings of computers, OS, and application software, all interract together. Believe me this is not a shot at you, but is true for 95% of computer users out there. Your job however is unknown by probably 99.9% of the population, myself included, which is why I defer to your knowledge on this video, codec stuff!

**PFC5** · 05-19-2006, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cornbread

Quote:

Originally Posted by strawberry

both of these products are stumbling and bumbling out of the gate. This is an experimental phase for both formats, and I really, truly do not see any decisive advantage going to either camp this year, and probably not next year either.

What you fail to understand is Blue Ray isn't stumbling out of the gate, they haven't even left the gate yet and I don't think it's fair to say that HD-DVD has stumbled out of the gate. By all accounts they have had a pretty successful initial launch. I think you are trying to overly criticize both Blue Ray and HD-DVD to justify your "setting on the fence" approach. So you are not happy with HD-DVD or Blue Ray because you have taken the stance that "HD-DVD is not an altogether different experience from watching standard DVD's" and that's fair enough, High Definition TV is just not important to you, my wife doesn't care either so I can understand that opinion, at least now we know your true motives.

I don't think he is saying neither HD format interests him. He is just saying he will not buy a product until a clear winner is upon us. And/or he also doesn't want to spend his hard earned money on something he thinks is a understandably buggy product.

strawberry · 05-19-2006, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Your much better than this Strawberry! I know it, YOU know it, and most here know it. That was condecending and not helpful.

OK- you've got me here. I got a little hot-headed, which I will do from time to time. Winpitt and I went at it and I threw some low blows, for which I apologize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

That is because DVD drives ARE supported in windows via the software drivers for them inside Windows, and it is nothing to use the imbedded software driver support IN WINDOWS, which BD players will not have for enterprise wide images.

My understanding is that BR drives will see support in the form of device drivers and for all data reading/writing purposes. I saw this story back in January in a few places, but the only link I can dig up right now is from a Thurrott article I came across.

"The HD-DVD AutoPlay feature is already implemented and Blu-Ray's is under study. This simply recognizes the particular media that you put into the disc drive, so implementing this feature for Blu-Ray does not constitute native or platform support for Blu-Ray in Vista. As stated before, we will leave that up to third party developers." In short, Windows Vista will support (i.e. recognize) Blu-Ray discs, but will not natively support Blu-Ray movie playback; for that, you'll still need third party software.

http://www.windowsitpro.com/articles...rticleid=49103

I'm pretty sure that as long as there's device driver support, and Vista can recognize the disc as a BR disc as the MS rep above says it will, and as long as the data on the disc is in a recognizable image format, it should read just fine. Have you seen any info that makes it specifically clear that this is incorrect? If so- I'm open to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Fair enough about the adoption rate with Vista. I actually think based on my experience that big companies will adopt it sooner than past upgrades, unless the final product has a big learning curve. They will because of the security improvements planned.

Even if Vista is embraced by IT depts. faster than XP was, there's no reason to believe that corporations are going to spring the extra dough for pricey HD-DVD or BR drives in any instance in which they aren't expressly needed. Your average office drone in a cubicle has no need for one of these drives, and won't for a long time to come. I just don't think the IT/Corporate contingency is going to have enough impact numbers-wise on the format war to be worthy of discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Individuals/small businesses will have a harder time getting unsupported drives to work than IT guys will, don't you think?

Individuals and small business owners won't have to worry about it- because the BR-equipped desktops and notebooks they purchase from Dell, HP, Apple, Sony, etc. will be fully functional right out of the box.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

You know your movie magic work, the codecs and tons of other stuff that could take me 5 lifetimes to know about what you do for a living, but we do not know a lot about how the workings of computers, OS, and application software, all interract together. Believe me this is not a shot at you, but is true for 95% of computer users out there. Your job however is unknown by probably 99.9% of the population, myself included, which is why I defer to your knowledge on this video, codec stuff!

You're right- I'm certainly not a certified IT specialist- but I am a system builder, an overclocker, and a PC enthusiast- so I don't think I quite fit into that 95% group you've mentioned either. It takes a lot to build a system from scratch and get umpteen pieces of video production software and hardware to work the way it's supposed to. I talk to my IT guys all the time without getting left in the dust (as long as we don't go too deep into networking, anyways- that's really their big specialty these days, it seems).

But I digress...

Actually, I need to eat something...

strawberry · 05-19-2006, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

I don't think he is saying neither HD format interests him. He is just saying he will not buy a product until a clear winner is upon us. And/or he also doesn't want to spend his hard earned money on something he thinks is a understandably buggy product.

What he said.

strawberry · 05-19-2006, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winpitt

Yes, MS does have some critics in terms of their image. However, it's kind of a love/hate relationship. Though everybody loves to bash them, they also sell a crap load of SW - and that crapload needs a bigger truck every day. So my position is that even though some people think they're the "evil empire", the fact is that they get respect - earned or otherwise.

Well, we could turn this into a whole new beast- but I'll spare us that trouble. There are plenty who would say that MS's successes when it comes to selling software by the truckload have more to do with monopolistic practices and intimidation upon OEM's than it does with clever advertising and public opinion- but this is a whole different can of worms.

I won't drag us there because I don't have really have strong feelings on this issue like some do. I tend to take the middle road- that MS is both evil and smart. Same with Sony. Corporations don't grow to the size of those two by accident.

OK- now I really am going to eat.

**PFC5** · 05-19-2006, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strawberry

Individuals and small business owners won't have to worry about it- because the BR-equipped desktops and notebooks they purchase from Dell, HP, Apple, Sony, etc. will be fully functional right out of the box.

I wasn't clear on this, but what I meant was the add-on drives people add after the fact for all the PCs already out there. I imagine @ $700-1,000.00 there will not be many except the power user looking to backup their laptops/PC drives at first.

Me, I just setup another mirror computer with all the same software, etc and backup to a separate dedicated harddrive on that machine. I have used tape drives since 1987, but they are not as reliable (over time) as I would like and are much slower than writing to a hard drive over my home network. I have a HP DLT 40GB tape drive as a secondary backup plan.

I guess you could say my data is precious to me with all this backup.

My main point is we do not know IF MS will certify those 3rd party drivers for BR yet. Which is important for me since whenever I have tried NON-certified drivers for hardware they generally make my system less stable. We have all become alpha testers these days when we used to be beta testers in the good ole days, but we STILL pay for that honor in price and anguish.

I think BR would definately be the superior choice for computers myself with the extra storage capacity (if/when 4/8 layers arrive), and always thought studios would/should prefer to have different media for their content from the PC media to add another layer of protection from copying or playing. Think about it, if they do not have CE devices with BD drives then they would makee it much harder on the casual pirater. I guess they didn't think of that though.

I didn't realize that you were that much into computer hardware, etc, but thought you were more into only applications for your job. I thought you didn't understand the difference between software drivers for hardware and application software when you started discussing the codecs, WinDVD, & PowerDVD. My mistake

Enjoy your dinner!

**PFC5** · 05-19-2006, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strawberry

Well, we could turn this into a whole new beast- but I'll spare us that trouble. There are plenty who would say that MS's successes when it comes to selling software by the truckload have more to do with monopolistic practices and intimidation upon OEM's than it does with clever advertising and public opinion- but this is a whole different can of worms.

I won't drag us there because I don't have really have strong feelings on this issue like some do. I tend to take the middle road- that MS is both evil and smart. Same with Sony. Corporations don't grow to the size of those two by accident.

OK- now I really am going to eat.

What he said, on MS, on Sony AND eating!

winpitt · 05-20-2006, 09:40 AM

I agree with Strawberry's position - the debate was the result of the categorization of Vista support as "meaningless". I do think that HD-DVD has a "slight" advantage on that specific data point, but it's a small point. The fact that there is so little content and so little standardization thus far will likely prevent widespread distribution of either format in the PC market for a while - certainly in the corporate market. If the media was read/write I'd perhaps feel different, but it's not.

Perhaps a debate about MS practices would be interesting in another thread and forum. While there are many things that have frustrated me with them over the years, there's no way I can claim their success as being monopolistic. They have invested billions and billions of dollars in R&D and I certainly can't blame them for wanting the results of it. But as I said, probably best in another thread if anyone is interested.

As for BD vs HD-DVD, I also don't "dislike" either format. I dislike that there is no standard format, and will not invest until either ALL content is being delivered on one of them, or when both are replaced by a true standard. Frankly, the BD vs HD-DVD issue is the thing smacking completely of corporate greed. Not MS.

**PFC5** · 05-20-2006, 09:59 AM

winpitt:

In my eyes, there is no question MS has behaved & bullied PC companies like a monopoly. Making PC cos pay OS licensing on EVERY unit sold even if a customer wanted OS/2 Warp IS bullying. How many PC users when told they have to pay for TWO OS in their machines IF they just wanted ONE that was not Windows ended up buying just Windows?

Quote:

Frankly, the BD vs HD-DVD issue is the thing smacking completely of corporate greed. Not MS.

I agree completely!

winpitt · 05-20-2006, 10:08 AM

PFC5,

This is definitely something best taken to another thread as we're getting way off track. Sorry, but I disagree with you, and it has to do with licensing segments and the ability to both price and manage globally deployed licenses. Those same manufacturers could simply deploy a complete model line on a different OS and not pay MS licensing fees. As a matter of fact, they have and do. The problem is that this isn't what gets broadcast by the media and the public.

If anyone is interested, I'm sure I could find a place for this thread elsewhere on this site. We're getting way off track here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

winpitt:

In my eyes, there is no question MS has behaved & bullied PC companies like a monopoly. Making PC cos pay OS licensing on EVERY unit sold even if a customer wanted OS/2 Warp IS bullying. How many PC users when told they have to pay for TWO OS in their machines IF they just wanted ONE that was not Windows ended up buying just Windows?

I agree completely!

05-19-2006, 05:16 PM	#49
Cornbread High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 265	Strawberry You're still not actually saying anything. I thought we were supposed to be thinking outside the box here. How does all of this translate into an altogether different experience from watching standard DVD's beyond the fact that it's in HD? I'm not trying to be difficult here- this is a very viable question that's being posed all over the net. There's a fear that neither BR or HD-DVD will succeed if Sony and/or Toshiba can't differentiate these new formats from DVD in any meaningful way beyond resolution and storage capacity. What do you think? * You must not be a big fan of HD, the difference between standard DVDs and HD-DVD or BR for that matter is in the image, the stunning beauty of a life like picture. It is an altogether different experience. Have you ever seen "Sunrise Earth" on the Dicovery HD channel? Before HD could you have ever imagined a entire show with nothing on it but the sunrise? No, there is a demand for an HD player, it will succeed as more and more people buy HD sets it will be a no brainer. Three years ago people doubted HD and now every broadcaster and TV studio is embracing it. But I see your point, to each to his own, if you don't care about HD then you are correct in sitting on the sideline. First of all, there's no "even if." It's official, and it has been for a while: Nero, WinDVD, and PowerDVD will all support both formats. No question about it. Yes it's official according to the publicity of each camp, excuse me as I remain sceptical about claims of future software. But yes, in time I am sure there will be many different software players for both HD-DVD and BR, that is what those companies do. In the long term you are probably right that it won't be that important that HD-DVD is supported by Microsoft, but initial compatiblty and integration issues might arise with Blue Ray without Windows support and of course the drivers won't be MS certified which might effect other systems. OEM products aside- NO BR PLAYER meant for the PC will ship without a free playback solution- even if it's in a light edition. This is no different of a situation than what exists for current DVD drives. Beyond that, as I've already stated, neither Dell, Sony, nor HP will be shipping out machines with non-functioning BR drives in them.[/quote] Nothing is free in this world youg man, the cost will be passed on down to the consumer in one way or another, it always is. The difference is Microsoft never had a stand alone DVD player that I knew of and this time they will. I have only heard rumors but I have heard that Vista will have an excellent stand alone HD-DVD player as part of it's operating system. Of course if Dell has a Blue Ray player on board it will work, that goes without saying and was never the point. The point is as HP has declared it will be more cost effective to use HD-DVD due to the imbedded player. Last edited by Cornbread; 05-19-2006 at 05:45 PM.*

05-19-2006, 05:24 PM	#50
Cornbread High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 265	[quote=strawberry] both of these products are stumbling and bumbling out of the gate. This is an experimental phase for both formats, and I really, truly do not see any decisive advantage going to either camp this year, and probably not next year either.[quote] What you fail to understand is Blue Ray isn't stumbling out of the gate, they haven't even left the gate yet and I don't think it's fair to say that HD-DVD has stumbled out of the gate. By all accounts they have had a pretty successful initial launch. I think you are trying to overly criticize both Blue Ray and HD-DVD to justify your "setting on the fence" approach. So you are not happy with HD-DVD or Blue Ray because you have taken the stance that "HD-DVD is not an altogether different experience from watching standard DVD's" and that's fair enough, High Definition TV is just not important to you, my wife doesn't care either so I can understand that opinion, at least now we know your true motives. Last edited by Cornbread; 05-19-2006 at 05:26 PM.

05-20-2006, 09:40 AM	#58
winpitt High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 75	For the record I agree with Strawberry's position - the debate was the result of the categorization of Vista support as "meaningless". I do think that HD-DVD has a "slight" advantage on that specific data point, but it's a small point. The fact that there is so little content and so little standardization thus far will likely prevent widespread distribution of either format in the PC market for a while - certainly in the corporate market. If the media was read/write I'd perhaps feel different, but it's not. Perhaps a debate about MS practices would be interesting in another thread and forum. While there are many things that have frustrated me with them over the years, there's no way I can claim their success as being monopolistic. They have invested billions and billions of dollars in R&D and I certainly can't blame them for wanting the results of it. But as I said, probably best in another thread if anyone is interested. As for BD vs HD-DVD, I also don't "dislike" either format. I dislike that there is no standard format, and will not invest until either ALL content is being delivered on one of them, or when both are replaced by a true standard. Frankly, the BD vs HD-DVD issue is the thing smacking completely of corporate greed. Not MS.

05-19-2006, 04:49 PM	#48
winpitt High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 75	Strawberry, one item of disagreement with your last post, but mainly very strong agreement with you. The disagreement first. Yes, MS does have some critics in terms of their image. However, it's kind of a love/hate relationship. Though everybody loves to bash them, they also sell a crap load of SW - and that crapload needs a bigger truck every day. So my position is that even though some people think they're the "evil empire", the fact is that they get respect - earned or otherwise. Frankly, I think they do a tremendous job considering, and believe they are a primary factor for much of the PC (and I'm using that term generally, not to just mean MS systems) advancements over the past 15 years. In other words, if it weren't for them, we wouldn't have a bunch of things we do have. For the big agreement, however - I also agree that this may likely turn out to be a trivial debate with no consequence. I'm actually not sure I hope we're wrong. Maybe this fiasco will drive a broad and endorsed standard for something even better. It's really weird for me to say that. I've got the reputation for being a new technology junkie, but not in this case. If somebody were to give me a player for free, I'd certainly play with it. But I'm not about to get sucked into this with my own money.