HD audio: Dolby TrueHD & Digital Plus Products

LordGamer · 02-20-2006, 03:57 PM

I'll post this here since the key focus in on the higher quality audio provided by the upcoming HD formats.

We now have a good idea of players that will be available for both formats, but does anyone know of audio components (receivers and HTiB) that will be supporting the new Dolby audio codecs and technology... TrueHD & Digital Plus?

I'm equally excited over the new sound quality that will be offered as I am over the HD video. Has anyone read when audio products will be available that support the new codecs?

µCOM-4 · 02-20-2006, 10:25 PM

I don't think it's even possible to announce when it'll be available from manufacturers considering they are waiting on the HDMI 1.3 spec to be completed and nobody knows when that will be.

borromini · 02-20-2006, 11:37 PM

Until I decide to get a new sound system with much better speakers, it won't really matter to me what new audio codecs will be available. My current speakers wouldn't be able to show off the increase in quality.

So DD and DTS will have to do for the foreseeable future.

HDMI Fantastic · 02-21-2006, 12:37 AM

I'm with you on that LG. Totally jazzed about the audio just as much as the video. I've been doing a lot of research on it. I'm no expert, but here is what I have come up with (subject to errors/clarification

)

As you proabably know, the HD player's will have the decoder's built into them. So, you won't need a receiver to be able decode the new audio formats as they will be sent through decoded. When you will need a receiver (or pre-amp) to decode them is when broadcaster's switch over to Dolby Digital Plus, which has been chosen by the broadcaster's group as the next audio format for HDTV.

Now, back to the HD player's. Dolby Digital Plus (DP) and Dolby True HD (DT) will not go through optical or digital coax (even though the player has decoded it). They never will-they will only go through HDMI. HDMI 1.2 was approved last August, which supports 1 bit audio, and which by the way will finally allow SACD to go digital. It also is more PC freindly. DVD-Audio has been supported through HDMI since HDMI's inception (although only a few manufacturer's have incorporated it-Denon being one).HDMI 1.2a was adopted in Dec, which put's more stringent controls on anyone making HDMI cables. One nice thing about HDMI is that it's hard to get a crappy HDMI cable. All HDMI cables have to meet minimum and very stringent specification's (including the connector's). So unless you buy a no-name cable off e-bay for $9.95, any other "name brand" cable you buy is going to be a good one-of course there are different levels of good. But the cheapest HDMI cable will send a better audio and/or video signal than the best spdif or component cable i.e. taking the same source signal. That's a profound statement, but it's true. From the start, HDMI was defined to carry 8 channel of 192kHz 24 bit uncompressed audio, which exceeds any content available today.And the video signal is all digital with no D/A conversion. I have a Sony 7100ES receive with HDMI and when I play CD's through my Sony DVD90 player w/HDMI, the sound is noticeably better than with Optical/coax.

And yes, for now, Dolby DP/DT will not be available to listen to in surround through the new player's until HDMI 1.3 is approved. However, the audio signal will be substantially better even through the spdif's than it is now. It won't be what it is capable of, but it will be about 2x as good.

Now here is whereit get's better: we won't have to wait to enjoy HD sound from the new player's. Why? Because DTS-HD will play through a lot of existing equipment-those with 5.1 analog and/or HDMI that is. The only thing I haven't figured out is which connection will be required on the receiver: HDMI 1.1 (or better) or the 5.1 multi channel analog outputs (no spdif). That's why the manufacturer's are putting them on the HD player's-otherwise what's the point? But optical and digital coax are history when it come's to HD Audio, that much I know for sure. I just don't know which-or both- connection will carry it on these new player's. This is where Dolby labs screwed up. From the beginning, DTS has been based on the Coherent Acoustics codec, and DTS-HD is simply an extension of the codec. Dolby had to go a different-and not backwards compatible-route

Buying stock in DTS is a good idea maybe? So, if you can live with DTS-HD as your HD Audio source (and we all know regular DTS is better than regular Dolby digital anyway so why wouldn't the HD version be also?) then you don't need to get a new receiver-for now a t least. You can wait for the dust to settle once the new HDMI 1.3 does come out. It will be a while before you even need the decoding in the receiver anyway, since it is going to be some time before there are other formats for it to decode anyway. By then the decoding will be commonplace in even the cheapest equipment.

We might start seeing HD audio by this fall on the higher end equipment-provided the HDMI 1.3 format is approved by then (the rush is supposedly on).But, as the above poster stated, even though the codec's are out there to put in the receiver's, the delivery system is not (at least for the Big Daddy- Dolby). The real high end manufacturer's might start putting the codecs in by this summer though, since they have cards you can swap out and/or software upgrades where you can switch over to HDMI 1.3 There is also a rumour that the connector is going to change, since the current one is prone to falling out. There's going to be a lot of angry people out there if they do that though, since in 2005 alone there were over 18 million components shipped with HDMI-way past the "early adopter" stage.

µCOM-4 · 02-21-2006, 06:42 AM

Quote:

and we all know regular DTS is better than regular Dolby digital anyway so why wouldn't the HD version be also

If they both use uncompressed audio then there shouldn't be any quality differences, unless the mastering is different between the two tracks.

gpt · 02-21-2006, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDMI Fantastic

I'm with you on that LG. Totally jazzed about the audio just as much as the video. I've been doing a lot of research on it. I'm no expert, but here is what I have come up with (subject to errors/clarification

)

As you proabably know, the HD player's will have the decoder's built into them. So, you won't need a receiver to be able decode the new audio formats as they will be sent through decoded. When you will need a receiver (or pre-amp) to decode them is when broadcaster's switch over to Dolby Digital Plus, which has been chosen by the broadcaster's group as the next audio format for HDTV.

There is only two channels with any of the first hd dvd players built in, with the other 3.1 channels being regular ss as we know it now.

The only players even capable of multi channel 192/24 are Blu Ray players.
As a matter of fact, the Pioneer Elite listed its specs as multi channel 192/24 Burr Brown dacs, with both Toshibas being only 2 channel 96/24.

µCOM-4 · 02-21-2006, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpt

There is only two channels with any of the first hd dvd players built in, with the other 3.1 channels being regular ss as we know it now.

The only players even capable of multi channel 192/24 are Blu Ray players.
As a matter of fact, the Pioneer Elite listed its specs as multi channel 192/24 Burr Brown dacs, with both Toshibas being only 2 channel 96/24.

Maybe Toshiba will release a firmware upgrade that allows uncompressed multi-channel audio through the analog RCA jacks since it supports DVDA?

LordGamer · 02-21-2006, 09:03 AM

HDMI Fantastic, you are the man!

I did not know the players did all the decoding themselves. So, Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD are only supported by HDMI 1.3...that sucks. I thought that was going to be the case, but wasn't sure.

Here's my thing, if you're running your HDMI connection to your receiver for the surround sound, what if your receiver doesn't have an HDMI out? I imagine most people run the audio to the receiver and the video straight to the television. And since a digital connection will be required for certain movies to be displayed in HD (not downconverted), the player would need to have two HDMI connections (or mix with DVI)...which I highly doubt would be the case.

So, to get the DP and TD sound, you would need to have a receiver that has HDMI out, correct?

µCOM-4 · 02-21-2006, 09:12 AM

No. You will need HDMI 1.3 for uncompressed multi-channel Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD for transmission in digital form. If you already have a receiver that doesn't have HDMI or has an old version of HDMI then you can always use the multi-channel analog RCA connectors that's used for SACD/DVDA. Dolby Digital Plus doesn't require HDMI of any kind because it is compressed. DD+ can be transmitted with the standard optical/coaxial connectors.

LordGamer · 02-21-2006, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by µCOM-4

No. You will need HDMI 1.3 for uncompressed multi-channel Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD for transmission in digital form. If you already have a receiver that doesn't have HDMI or has an old version of HDMI then you can always use the multi-channel analog RCA connectors that's used for SACD/DVDA. Dolby Digital Plus doesn't require HDMI of any kind because it is compressed. DD+ can be transmitted with the standard optical/coaxial connectors.

Thanks. I might not be able to benefit from TrueHD and DTS-HD for awhile then.

µCOM-4 · 02-21-2006, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordGamer

Thanks. I might not be able to benefit from TrueHD and DTS-HD for awhile then.

You don't own a reciever that has multi-channel analog RCA inputs?

LordGamer · 02-21-2006, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by µCOM-4

You don't own a reciever that has multi-channel analog RCA inputs?

Sweet Jebus... I had no idea what you were talking about until I did some research. I never paid any attention to the inputs on my receiver (which is fairly old, at least four years, probably five).

Ok, so first question... Were these analog RCA inputs used on the first wave of DVD players? Because when I worked in retail, while I wasn't a huge home video & audio guy (PC and gaming fanatic), I never noticed multiple analog outputs on any of the DVD players I sold and / or setup. I'm assuming it's age, because what's even the point with digital coaxial and fiber optic as options (which are the only things besides standard stereo connections I ever saw)?
---

Now, let me see if I got this... HDMI 1.3 is required for uncompressed TrueHD and DTS-HD, which is obviously transmitted digitally. However, you are able to use the multi channel RCA inputs (which my receiver does have) or the older versions of HDMI to send a compressed signal.

If that's correct, is there any significant difference between uncompressed and compressed? I don't mean technical, because technical doesn't mean real world...I mean actually able to hear a difference?

Also, for Dolby Digital Plus, it doesn't matter at all, right? It could be sent over fiber optic or digital coaxial, since it's compressed. Could it be sent over the multiple RCA analog inputs as well?

Finally, why can't TrueHD and DTS-HD be sent over fiber optic or digital coaxial at all or can it (in a compressed form)? Too much data, I assume. See, you learn something new everyday. Today, I've got a ton of new audio knowledge.

µCOM-4 · 02-22-2006, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Sweet Jebus... I had no idea what you were talking about until I did some research. I never paid any attention to the inputs on my receiver (which is fairly old, at least four years, probably five).

Ok, so first question... Were these analog RCA inputs used on the first wave of DVD players? Because when I worked in retail, while I wasn't a huge home video & audio guy (PC and gaming fanatic), I never noticed multiple analog outputs on any of the DVD players I sold and / or setup. I'm assuming it's age, because what's even the point with digital coaxial and fiber optic as options (which are the only things besides standard stereo connections I ever saw)?

From what I could remember the first wave of DVD players did not have multichannel analog RCA output connectors but I could be wrong. What the first wave of DVD players did have were built-in surround sound decoders which decoded the surround sound signal and simply fed it to a Home Theater Ready receiver via optical/coaxial cable. Later on when SACD/DVDA capable players were released, they added the multichannel RCA outputs. The reason why SACD/DVDA doesn't allow using the digital coaxial/optical connection is due to copy protection. The music companies did not want you to be able to make perfect digital recordings of the high quality audio from SACD/DVDA. Forcing the use of analog RCAs prevents people from making perfect digital recordings.

Quote:

Now, let me see if I got this... HDMI 1.3 is required for uncompressed TrueHD and DTS-HD, which is obviously transmitted digitally. However, you are able to use the multi channel RCA inputs (which my receiver does have) or the older versions of HDMI to send a compressed signal.

You can use the multichannel RCA inputs on your receiver IF your player is able to recognize and output uncompressed multichannel TrueHD and/or DTS-HD signals through its multichannel RCA outputs. The older version of HDMI can send standard DD and DTS compressed signals. It's likely able to send compressed signals from the new DD+ too but I'm not 100% sure.

Quote:

If that's correct, is there any significant difference between uncompressed and compressed? I don't mean technical, because technical doesn't mean real world...I mean actually able to hear a difference?

That depends on a lot of factors like the quality of your speakers and other equipment as well as your hearing. Some people can hear the difference some cannot. It's similiar to how some people can hear the difference between a high quality 320kbps MP3 encoding vs the CD version.

Quote:

Also, for Dolby Digital Plus, it doesn't matter at all, right? It could be sent over fiber optic or digital coaxial, since it's compressed. Could it be sent over the multiple RCA analog inputs as well?

Technically DD+ can be sent over standard digital or analog connections.

Quote:

Finally, why can't TrueHD and DTS-HD be sent over fiber optic or digital coaxial at all or can it (in a compressed form)? Too much data, I assume. See, you learn something new everyday. Today, I've got a ton of new audio knowledge.

Well because TrueHD and DTS-HD are uncompressed formats. If you compress them, they wouldn't be TrueHD/DTS-HD anymore. Also like I mentioned above, the studios do not want you to be able to record perfect bit for bit copies of the uncompressed studio master recordings. That's why they only allow digital through HDMI and not coaxial/optical. HDMI has copy protection while coaxial/optical does not.

µCOM-4 · 02-22-2006, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Advisor to the Toshiba HD DVD Group Mark Knox offered a few potential answers. One, he intimated at CES 2006 that it's most likely that the initial HD DVD releases will have current standard DTS and Dolby Digital soundtracks, but at the highest data rates possible (DVDs usually run at lower audio rates to save more bits for the video transfer). Also, six channel analog outputs will be provided on the players, which could be used with the analog multichannel pass-through connectors found on many current AVRs and surround processors.

Going further, Knox also noted that HD DVD players will have the ability to "transcode" the new high-res Dolby and DTS formats to PCM, which can then be carried over the current HDMI spec and should be compatible with a number of current HDMI compatible surround processors and AVRs. Some Blu-ray titles have also been announced as carrying uncompressed digital audio soundtracks as well, which most likely means uncompressed PCM. HD DVD is also spec'd to carry up to eight discrete channels of uncompressed PCM at resolutions up to 24/96, while Blu-ray is spec'd to go all the way up to 24/192.

Knox also informed me that HD DVD players will be software updateable, but it is not yet known for certain that updating to HDMI 1.3 will be a software switch or whether new hardware will be required. All of this news, and the recent revelation that the AACS copy protection scheme to be used by both formats was just completed in the last couple of weeks, raises the question of whether either of these formats is fully complete and ready for prime time. Is the rush to market for both formats increasing the possibility that early adopters may not be able to take advantage of all the new features the new formats promise?

Nice to hear that the HD DVD players can transcode DD+, TrueHD and DTS-HD for transfer over the current HDMI standard.

HDMI Fantastic · 02-23-2006, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by µCOM-4

Nice to hear that the HD DVD players can transcode DD+, TrueHD and DTS-HD for transfer over the current HDMI standard.

Perhaps you meant this, but I just wanted to make sure I understand:

Yes, you can play the audio track through HDMI.
It will be the same core 5.1 compressed signal available over the S/PDIF output's, at a much higher data rate than the current lossy formats. It will sound better than what we are currently used to. But to get the true lossless DTS HD and Dolby TrueHD the codecs will only be carried digitally in their native form over HDMI 1.3.

Derived from an article by Shane C Buettner @Ultimate AV

Now, when Knox stated that HD DVD player's will have the ability to "transcode" the high rez signals to PCM to play over HDMI 1.1, then it is no longer a lossy signal with the same sound quality as it is meant to be, and will be, with HDMI 1.3, correct?

I like the final paragraph in this article which get's back to LordGamers original question: "All we know for now is it's that it's a dicey time to be buying a new disc player or a new sorround sound processor or AVR". (even the new HDDVD player's because of the lack of HDMI 1.3 if you ask me-though I'll buy one anyway

)

02-20-2006, 03:57 PM	#1
LordGamer Lord of Gaming Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,788	HD audio: Dolby TrueHD & Digital Plus Products I'll post this here since the key focus in on the higher quality audio provided by the upcoming HD formats. We now have a good idea of players that will be available for both formats, but does anyone know of audio components (receivers and HTiB) that will be supporting the new Dolby audio codecs and technology... TrueHD & Digital Plus? I'm equally excited over the new sound quality that will be offered as I am over the HD video. Has anyone read when audio products will be available that support the new codecs? __________________ LordGamer Profile - George Carlin, R.I.P. 06.22.08 HD Qualifications... -- Westinghouse 47" 1080p LCD (LVM-47w1) -- Scientific Atlanta HD Receiver & DVR (8300HD), Comcast -- Sony Playstation 3 -- Microsoft Xbox 360

02-20-2006, 11:37 PM	#3
borromini HT Frontiersman Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Northern California Posts: 9,822	Until I decide to get a new sound system with much better speakers, it won't really matter to me what new audio codecs will be available. My current speakers wouldn't be able to show off the increase in quality. So DD and DTS will have to do for the foreseeable future. __________________ "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

02-21-2006, 12:37 AM	#4
HDMI Fantastic HD since mid 04 Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 326	To decode or not to decode? I'm with you on that LG. Totally jazzed about the audio just as much as the video. I've been doing a lot of research on it. I'm no expert, but here is what I have come up with (subject to errors/clarification ) As you proabably know, the HD player's will have the decoder's built into them. So, you won't need a receiver to be able decode the new audio formats as they will be sent through decoded. When you will need a receiver (or pre-amp) to decode them is when broadcaster's switch over to Dolby Digital Plus, which has been chosen by the broadcaster's group as the next audio format for HDTV. Now, back to the HD player's. Dolby Digital Plus (DP) and Dolby True HD (DT) will not go through optical or digital coax (even though the player has decoded it). They never will-they will only go through HDMI. HDMI 1.2 was approved last August, which supports 1 bit audio, and which by the way will finally allow SACD to go digital. It also is more PC freindly. DVD-Audio has been supported through HDMI since HDMI's inception (although only a few manufacturer's have incorporated it-Denon being one).HDMI 1.2a was adopted in Dec, which put's more stringent controls on anyone making HDMI cables. One nice thing about HDMI is that it's hard to get a crappy HDMI cable. All HDMI cables have to meet minimum and very stringent specification's (including the connector's). So unless you buy a no-name cable off e-bay for $9.95, any other "name brand" cable you buy is going to be a good one-of course there are different levels of good. But the cheapest HDMI cable will send a better audio and/or video signal than the best spdif or component cable i.e. taking the same source signal. That's a profound statement, but it's true. From the start, HDMI was defined to carry 8 channel of 192kHz 24 bit uncompressed audio, which exceeds any content available today.And the video signal is all digital with no D/A conversion. I have a Sony 7100ES receive with HDMI and when I play CD's through my Sony DVD90 player w/HDMI, the sound is noticeably better than with Optical/coax. And yes, for now, Dolby DP/DT will not be available to listen to in surround through the new player's until HDMI 1.3 is approved. However, the audio signal will be substantially better even through the spdif's than it is now. It won't be what it is capable of, but it will be about 2x as good. Now here is whereit get's better: we won't have to wait to enjoy HD sound from the new player's. Why? Because DTS-HD will play through a lot of existing equipment-those with 5.1 analog and/or HDMI that is. The only thing I haven't figured out is which connection will be required on the receiver: HDMI 1.1 (or better) or the 5.1 multi channel analog outputs (no spdif). That's why the manufacturer's are putting them on the HD player's-otherwise what's the point? But optical and digital coax are history when it come's to HD Audio, that much I know for sure. I just don't know which-or both- connection will carry it on these new player's. This is where Dolby labs screwed up. From the beginning, DTS has been based on the Coherent Acoustics codec, and DTS-HD is simply an extension of the codec. Dolby had to go a different-and not backwards compatible-route Buying stock in DTS is a good idea maybe? So, if you can live with DTS-HD as your HD Audio source (and we all know regular DTS is better than regular Dolby digital anyway so why wouldn't the HD version be also?) then you don't need to get a new receiver-for now a t least. You can wait for the dust to settle once the new HDMI 1.3 does come out. It will be a while before you even need the decoding in the receiver anyway, since it is going to be some time before there are other formats for it to decode anyway. By then the decoding will be commonplace in even the cheapest equipment. We might start seeing HD audio by this fall on the higher end equipment-provided the HDMI 1.3 format is approved by then (the rush is supposedly on).But, as the above poster stated, even though the codec's are out there to put in the receiver's, the delivery system is not (at least for the Big Daddy- Dolby). The real high end manufacturer's might start putting the codecs in by this summer though, since they have cards you can swap out and/or software upgrades where you can switch over to HDMI 1.3 There is also a rumour that the connector is going to change, since the current one is prone to falling out. There's going to be a lot of angry people out there if they do that though, since in 2005 alone there were over 18 million components shipped with HDMI-way past the "early adopter" stage. Last edited by HDMI Fantastic; 02-21-2006 at 12:53 AM. Reason: speling

02-21-2006, 09:03 AM	#8
LordGamer Lord of Gaming Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 1,788	HDMI Fantastic, you are the man! I did not know the players did all the decoding themselves. So, Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD are only supported by HDMI 1.3...that sucks. I thought that was going to be the case, but wasn't sure. Here's my thing, if you're running your HDMI connection to your receiver for the surround sound, what if your receiver doesn't have an HDMI out? I imagine most people run the audio to the receiver and the video straight to the television. And since a digital connection will be required for certain movies to be displayed in HD (not downconverted), the player would need to have two HDMI connections (or mix with DVI)...which I highly doubt would be the case. So, to get the DP and TD sound, you would need to have a receiver that has HDMI out, correct? __________________ LordGamer Profile - George Carlin, R.I.P. 06.22.08 HD Qualifications... -- Westinghouse 47" 1080p LCD (LVM-47w1) -- Scientific Atlanta HD Receiver & DVR (8300HD), Comcast -- Sony Playstation 3 -- Microsoft Xbox 360

02-21-2006, 09:12 AM	#9
µCOM-4 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 699	No. You will need HDMI 1.3 for uncompressed multi-channel Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD for transmission in digital form. If you already have a receiver that doesn't have HDMI or has an old version of HDMI then you can always use the multi-channel analog RCA connectors that's used for SACD/DVDA. Dolby Digital Plus doesn't require HDMI of any kind because it is compressed. DD+ can be transmitted with the standard optical/coaxial connectors. Last edited by µCOM-4; 02-21-2006 at 09:15 AM.

02-20-2006, 10:25 PM	#2
µCOM-4 High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 699	I don't think it's even possible to announce when it'll be available from manufacturers considering they are waiting on the HDMI 1.3 spec to be completed and nobody knows when that will be.