Does anyone but me feel that all these price cuts in HDDVD players means failure

Chris Gerhard · 05-28-2007, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobY

Chris-

You repeatedly mischaracterize my position on this. I can't tell if you're doing it on purpose or you still don't get my point.

I don't think Blu-Ray will be successful as a consumer format, *not* because of corporate arrogance or past history or anything to do with Sony, but because it does not suit the needs of the consumer as well as HD DVD, just as Beta did not suit the needs of the consumer as well as VHS.

I don't doubt Blu-ray is going to be a niche product, where we disagree is I am certain HD DVD will do even worse which is exactly what we have seen so far. You are right, I don't get any of your points regarding the Blu-ray v HD DVD issue. I understood you believe Sony has had some failed products because of some deliberate intent or arrogant attitude or big ego or something I can't grasp and Sony therefore releases products that the consumer doesn't want or something, I can't really put it in words, I can't get it to make any sense. I believe Sony tries to make and market products that will be profitable and often makes mistakes in judging consumer needs or wants or willingness to pay. I don't think Beta was a money loser for Sony, I believe it was a profitable product that didn't do nearly as well as VHS in the marketplace but Sony never dropped the prices to a point where it became unprofitable and a small group of loyal consumers stayed with the product until the end.

Chris

Gideon · 05-28-2007, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobY

You can disagree with my anthropomorphizing of corporations all you want, but my argument is pretty straightforward--if you don't believe corporations can reflect human characteristics like ego, attitude and arrogance, then they can't have a corporate philosophy either--it doesn't matter whether it's written down. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this, but I'll leave it to other forum readers to decide whether your view can possibly be valid given it's own self-contradiction.

Its always easy to tell the difference between a well thought out and unbiased quote, and I do believe you have the MUCH better argument. Not to mention that your posts make a whole lot more sense. (as a business owner myself)- I can tell you that anybody who dosent believe that businesses can reflect human characteristics is just dead wrong-- wayyyy dead wrong. Someone can put me on their ignore list for that statement, but nobody will never convince me otherwise.

Gideon

Lee Stewart · 05-28-2007, 01:11 PM

How anyone can doubt that a corporation can have human charactistics - it is made up of humans.

Corporations are just like people, because they reflect the attitudes of the people who run them. They can be agressive . . . they can be passive. But they all need constant growth to survive.

Get a very strong CEO in charge of a big company and guess what? The company begins to "look" like it's CEO.

This has happened countless times in corporate America. From the robber barons of the late 1800's right on up to today.

Sony is not the only company to try to put the consumer in a box and seal him in. Xerox did this from the late 1950's all the way up to the late 1970's, when they guessed wrong - that people would buy Xerox just because of the name. Savin taught them not to be so bold. And Xerox went from 80% market share to just over 20% in a matter of less than 5 years.

Same thing happened to IBM. And it wasn't until Gerstner took over that the "IBM Train" was put back on the right track.

McGoughen (sp. ck.) from Sprint was another "follow me" type of leader. Hell . . . he answered his own phone! - no secretary!

We equate human feelings to corporations to try to put them at a level that we can understand . . . or at least try to understand. We draw analogies like money is the "blood" of a Corporation. We see Sales/Marketing like Foot Soliders; to go out and do "battle" with the competition. All for profits, market share and the glory of the fight.

If you believe a Corporation has no "soul" then you have not been exposed to many - for they all do. The question is can you recognize it?

Most can . . . some can't.

The_Omega_Man · 05-29-2007, 11:53 PM

Don't forget the fact that while Sony may currently have a "Made in America," CEO it is still a Japanese company. As such, a majority of it's internal culture is alligned with the Japanese ways of doing business. I've met and known a few Sony employees (both Japanese and domestic), so there is absolutely no way that anyone could possibly convince me, that there are no egos or arrogance, inherent within Sony and other large sucessful corporations!

You can put me on ignore if you don't like what I have to contribute, but ultimately it is you that would be hiding from the apparently, "Painful truth!"

samcan07 · 05-30-2007, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Omega_Man

Don't forget the fact that while Sony may currently have a "Made in America," CEO it is still a Japanese company. As such, a majority of it's internal culture is alligned with the Japanese ways of doing business. I've met and known a few Sony employees (both Japanese and domestic), so there is absolutely no way that anyone could possibly convince me, that there are no egos or arrogance, inherent within Sony and other large sucessful corporations!

You can put me on ignore if you don't like what I have to contribute, but ultimately it is you that would be hiding from the apparently, "Painful truth!"

And I wonder how arrogant and what sort of ego Toshiba has???

I supose they are all nice pleasant people in that company!!!!

You know I could go on and on and on about how arrogant I think Toshiba is and what egos' they have!!!

I mean it was pretty obvious that most of the companys wanted Blu ray but they had to go against the majority and rush release so to get on the market first!!!!!

The_Omega_Man · 05-30-2007, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcan07

And I wonder how arrogant and what sort of ego Toshiba has???

I supose they are all nice pleasant people in that company!!!!

You know I could go on and on and on about how arrogant I think Toshiba is and what egos' they have!!!

As you saw in my post, I stated, "Sony and other large corporations"... Sony happened to be the point of topic at the time. This, in no way excludes Toshiba. Nor, does it imply that these large corporations have no cause for, or rights to, their egos or arrogance. But to simply deny that these corporate attitudes exist and are sometimes reflected back to the very customers that help create these monsters, is naive at best!

Now I do admit that I rely on these major CE companies to develop and produce the various technologies that THEY believe that I need. This is only because I can not afford to manufacture exactly what I want. In this way I feed the monsters.

However, I do take an exception with those corporate monsters that attempt to drive me in a direction that I do not wish to go by marketing me to death and/or eliminating my options!

This is one reason that, in the USA, there are regulations and controls regarding the formation of monopolies.

Ultimately, it is we the consumer, that makes our respective buying decisions based on whatever reasons we may have at the time. If you don't like a specific corporation’s attitude or operating philosophy, well then I say, let's all protest through our wallets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcan07

I mean it was pretty obvious that most of the companys wanted Blu ray but they had to go against the majority and rush release so to get on the market first!!!!!

As we all generally know, rushing incomplete or not quite standardized products to market is very risky! A corporation doing that could actually cause more harm to their success than good! However, if you are last to market, with your competative products, you stand to loose some potential consumer $ and the prestige of the market leader moniker (See ego statments).

I think that most of the early adopters of BD based technologies (save the PS3 owners) may end up paying a price for early adoption. While there is nothing really unusual about this , I can say that I personally found some security in knowing that the HD-DVD HW/SW standards were mandated, finalized and have been more generally followed in each incarnation of the products. Thus, I feel generally safer in my investment. But, if all goes south for HD-DVD, then I have potentially covered my bet,s with a PS3

Cheers!

samcan07 · 05-30-2007, 03:01 AM

I was in a bit of a hurry with my post.(and my reading of yours)

Just being a Sony fanboy here, this arragance bit that keeps getting posted (not specifiacally your post) is a wearing a bit thin. They provide a product and we have the choices to purchase or not.

They usually deliver the goods quality wise.

SHOSHOSHO · 05-30-2007, 09:47 AM

You guys are missing the point. Maybe its not arrogance or ego maybe it should be said that Sony has an agenda. Sony owns Sony Pictures. So it is Sony's best interests to try their damndest to prevent people from copying their movies. Making this guarantee to other film studios also entices them, but the bottom line is Sony is looking out for Sony. Sony spent more time on copyright protection than providing a good launch lineup. When Toshiba launched HD-DVD nearly everything from a consumer level was done perfectly. Does anybody seriously think that the BD code will remain secure. If I'm not mistaken it has already been cracked. Every move sony makes with blu ray will be with its own interests in mind. Toshiba does not own a film studio so it will be the consumer who will be in Toshiba's mind which had already been evidenced by their level of quality.

PFC5 · 05-30-2007, 09:51 AM

Sam:

The DVD Forum was created to have a home video standard and to avoid having multiple formats to confuse consumers and allow the members to make a collective decision on what the format should be. All the BD mfg ARE members of that forum, but they were outvoted (or maybe some DID vote for HD DVD initially but changed their minds later). So the organization that they all agreed to start to avoid format wars to a collective vote on what the next format should be and when they didn't get what THEY wanted, they decided to go against it.

Toshiba did not go against the majority. The BD companies did. It may seem that many of the "FACES" of the CE industry decided on BD based on what they are mfg, but there are countly companies involved that make many of the components used in these players and the majority voted against BD and for HD DVD.

kbaker2002de · 05-30-2007, 10:33 AM

As usual in the Format War Forum, the topic has wandered. So let me through in my $0.02.

First regarding the original thread arguement. These price cuts and free DVD's are by far a sign of failure. For Toshiba, this is par for the course. When I bought my first DVD player in 1997-1998, I purchased a dual drawer Toshiba due to its value, quality and the fact that I got 5 free movies when I bought it. This is something they do, entice you to buy the player, and give you some referece material to show the difference in quality over what you are used to.

As far as price breaks, that is definately a 2nd place product trying to push itself into the conscience of the consumer to make up ground. It seems to be working pretty well, and it shows either great knowledge of the cosumer or possible dumb luck. What we do know is that most of the people who buy HDTV's aren't paying $3000+ for the top of the line TV and shelling out an extra $20-30 a month for HD programming. Most just hook it up to regular cable, so this tells us that MOST consumers are more interested in cost than utmost quality. That is what HD-DVD is trying to do, push itself down as far as possible as the value alternative for the mass audience. They will loose out on most videophiles due to the less impressive spec sheet, but most won't care.

Lastly, my opinion and horse in this race. I guess I have to put myself in the HD-DVD camp. Why you ask? Because Blu-Ray is an inferior product with a marketing hurdle? No they are #1 for a reason. For my situation, I cannot justify paying $500+ for a DVD player, I am a working class stiff with a family and am looking forward to HD-DVD breaking the $200 barrier.

Flame away people, flame away

PFC5 · 05-30-2007, 10:58 AM

Welcome to the forum kbaker!

How is that for flaming.

kbaker2002de · 05-30-2007, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Welcome to the forum kbaker!

How is that for flaming.

Why thank you for the welcome

Chris Gerhard · 05-30-2007, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

Sam:

The DVD Forum was created to have a home video standard and to avoid having multiple formats to confuse consumers and allow the members to make a collective decision on what the format should be. All the BD mfg ARE members of that forum, but they were outvoted (or maybe some DID vote for HD DVD initially but changed their minds later). So the organization that they all agreed to start to avoid format wars to a collective vote on what the next format should be and when they didn't get what THEY wanted, they decided to go against it.

Toshiba did not go against the majority. The BD companies did. It may seem that many of the "FACES" of the CE industry decided on BD based on what they are mfg, but there are countly companies involved that make many of the components used in these players and the majority voted against BD and for HD DVD.

That is a big so-what. The overwhelming majority agreed to Blu-ray and if either Toshiba or Universal had, we wouldn't be in this mess. The format approved by the DVD forum didn't meet Fox's nor Disney's requirements, it wasn't good enough nor secure enough. I don't know why nobody here except me thinks an overwhelming majority should have been good enough and HD DVD forgotten.

chris

unotis · 05-30-2007, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard

That is a big so-what. The overwhelming majority agreed to Blu-ray and if either Toshiba or Universal had, we wouldn't be in this mess. The format approved by the DVD forum didn't meet Fox's nor Disney's requirements, it wasn't good enough nor secure enough. I don't know why nobody here except me thinks an overwhelming majority should have been good enough and HD DVD forgotten.

chris

You just love to see things in very biased ways, PFC5's post was not a so called "big so-what" he said things that are actually very close to the true fact of the matter (without all the fanboy theatrics and word play).

You'll never agree because you don't have an open mind in this matter.

You often make very valid points in favor of your preference of formats but, you never concede if someone else has a valid point, even if he gives tons of proof and links to prove what he says is valid.

You just ignore or even twist what he said to validate your opinion (sometimes very skillfully).

You would be very helpful if you would start backing up you points with links instead of finding out something then not telling anyone so you may attack their viewpoint and have the proof hidden until you decide to show them up or more correctly someone like PCF5 looks it up and provides the link to actually improve everyones knowledge, like he did when it came to the false belief that all Blu-Ray discs are regionally coded.

If you had given us the links before you tried to start a little flame war, we would have said thank you and really appreciated it.

So come on Chris stop being a close minded Blu-Ray fanboy and come into the light of reason.

daleb · 05-30-2007, 02:04 PM

Everything is after the fact. I don't think many people were "hoping" HD DVD would prevail. I really don't think anyone cared that much at the time. They just wanted it over. Early on I would have picked Sony to end the war, once and for all.
Making an earlier entry certainly gave HD DVD a spike in interest. And a responding spike in interest with regards to what BD would do... I think the expectations were a bit higher than the excitement once BD was finally on the scene.
That's when 'we' started taking sides to some extent. I think most who went with HD DVD initially was because it seemed to be a more cost-effective choice at the time, as well as a player with many favorable features, if not in some eyes a paragon of sophistication.
Now the playing field is fairly even for the hardware, some questions still on software, and greater studio backing for BD.
So here we are today with two viable choices and no idea, with any real certainty, which (or if both) will survive.

05-29-2007, 11:53 PM	#64
The_Omega_Man Don't touch the remote! Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Encino,CA Posts: 3,489	Don't forget the fact that while Sony may currently have a "Made in America," CEO it is still a Japanese company. As such, a majority of it's internal culture is alligned with the Japanese ways of doing business. I've met and known a few Sony employees (both Japanese and domestic), so there is absolutely no way that anyone could possibly convince me, that there are no egos or arrogance, inherent within Sony and other large sucessful corporations! You can put me on ignore if you don't like what I have to contribute, but ultimately it is you that would be hiding from the apparently, "Painful truth!" __________________ Lvng Rm Sony KF50WE610 HDTV D* HR-21 HD DVR XA2 HD DVD Onkyo TX-NR905 JVC HR-S3500U S-VHS Hrmony One Energy Encore 5.1 Spkr Mstr Bdrm Tosh 46XF550U HDTV XA2 HD DVD D* HR-21 HD DVR Onkyo TX-SR606 Hrmony 659 Polk 5.1 Spkr Office Samy LNS3252D HDTV D* HR-20 HD DVR A2 HD DVD Sony RDR-HX715 DVD Rec. Fisher FVH-4910 VHS Onkyo TX-SR674 Psyclone PSC47 HDMI Sw. Hrmony 550 Polk RM6750 5.1 Spkr Gst Rm Samy UN46B7100 HDTV D* HR10 HD DVR XBOX360 Elite+HD DVD PS3 60GB Onkyo TX-SR704 Energy C-7 Spkr Hrmony 880

05-30-2007, 09:51 AM	#69
PFC5 Former Super Moderator - RIP Join Date: May 2005 Location: Mass Posts: 38,295	Sam: The DVD Forum was created to have a home video standard and to avoid having multiple formats to confuse consumers and allow the members to make a collective decision on what the format should be. All the BD mfg ARE members of that forum, but they were outvoted (or maybe some DID vote for HD DVD initially but changed their minds later). So the organization that they all agreed to start to avoid format wars to a collective vote on what the next format should be and when they didn't get what THEY wanted, they decided to go against it. Toshiba did not go against the majority. The BD companies did. It may seem that many of the "FACES" of the CE industry decided on BD based on what they are mfg, but there are countly companies involved that make many of the components used in these players and the majority voted against BD and for HD DVD. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5

05-30-2007, 10:33 AM	#70
kbaker2002de It's the Cup Or BUST!! Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,003	Ok we have gotten off topic.... As usual in the Format War Forum, the topic has wandered. So let me through in my $0.02. First regarding the original thread arguement. These price cuts and free DVD's are by far a sign of failure. For Toshiba, this is par for the course. When I bought my first DVD player in 1997-1998, I purchased a dual drawer Toshiba due to its value, quality and the fact that I got 5 free movies when I bought it. This is something they do, entice you to buy the player, and give you some referece material to show the difference in quality over what you are used to. As far as price breaks, that is definately a 2nd place product trying to push itself into the conscience of the consumer to make up ground. It seems to be working pretty well, and it shows either great knowledge of the cosumer or possible dumb luck. What we do know is that most of the people who buy HDTV's aren't paying $3000+ for the top of the line TV and shelling out an extra $20-30 a month for HD programming. Most just hook it up to regular cable, so this tells us that MOST consumers are more interested in cost than utmost quality. That is what HD-DVD is trying to do, push itself down as far as possible as the value alternative for the mass audience. They will loose out on most videophiles due to the less impressive spec sheet, but most won't care. Lastly, my opinion and horse in this race. I guess I have to put myself in the HD-DVD camp. Why you ask? Because Blu-Ray is an inferior product with a marketing hurdle? No they are #1 for a reason. For my situation, I cannot justify paying $500+ for a DVD player, I am a working class stiff with a family and am looking forward to HD-DVD breaking the $200 barrier. Flame away people, flame away

05-30-2007, 10:58 AM	#71
PFC5 Former Super Moderator - RIP Join Date: May 2005 Location: Mass Posts: 38,295	Welcome to the forum kbaker! How is that for flaming. __________________ Denon AVR-887 Klipsch RP-5 Pwred Towers (mains) (525 watts peak each 12"Subs) All Klipsch RC-25(ctr),(2)SS1(surr),(2)SS1(rearSurr) Toshiba (2)HD-A20,PS3,BD35 For SACD/DVD-A Samsung HD-841 Panny 50pz80u plasma SETTINGS RCA HD50LPW162 50"DLP w/HD2+ SA 3250HD 47" LCD+Yamaha5790+HD-A1(bedroom) Harmony 680 + (2) 670s (amazing remote/support) Game room with Onkyo receiver & B&W Speakers The_Cable_Game Take the high ground and be happier PSN: PFC5

05-30-2007, 02:04 PM	#75
daleb High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Clovis, CA Posts: 7,657	Everything is after the fact. I don't think many people were "hoping" HD DVD would prevail. I really don't think anyone cared that much at the time. They just wanted it over. Early on I would have picked Sony to end the war, once and for all. Making an earlier entry certainly gave HD DVD a spike in interest. And a responding spike in interest with regards to what BD would do... I think the expectations were a bit higher than the excitement once BD was finally on the scene. That's when 'we' started taking sides to some extent. I think most who went with HD DVD initially was because it seemed to be a more cost-effective choice at the time, as well as a player with many favorable features, if not in some eyes a paragon of sophistication. Now the playing field is fairly even for the hardware, some questions still on software, and greater studio backing for BD. So here we are today with two viable choices and no idea, with any real certainty, which (or if both) will survive. __________________ Samsung PN50A650 plasma, Arcam AVR350, Dali Ikon6 (Vokal2&OnWalls), Outlaw Audio LFM-1EX sub, Anti-Mode 8033B, Oppo Digital BDP-83SE, Roku Digital, Furman Elite power conditioner

05-28-2007, 01:11 PM	#63
Lee Stewart Muscle Cars Forever! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 35,092	How anyone can doubt that a corporation can have human charactistics - it is made up of humans. Corporations are just like people, because they reflect the attitudes of the people who run them. They can be agressive . . . they can be passive. But they all need constant growth to survive. Get a very strong CEO in charge of a big company and guess what? The company begins to "look" like it's CEO. This has happened countless times in corporate America. From the robber barons of the late 1800's right on up to today. Sony is not the only company to try to put the consumer in a box and seal him in. Xerox did this from the late 1950's all the way up to the late 1970's, when they guessed wrong - that people would buy Xerox just because of the name. Savin taught them not to be so bold. And Xerox went from 80% market share to just over 20% in a matter of less than 5 years. Same thing happened to IBM. And it wasn't until Gerstner took over that the "IBM Train" was put back on the right track. McGoughen (sp. ck.) from Sprint was another "follow me" type of leader. Hell . . . he answered his own phone! - no secretary! We equate human feelings to corporations to try to put them at a level that we can understand . . . or at least try to understand. We draw analogies like money is the "blood" of a Corporation. We see Sales/Marketing like Foot Soliders; to go out and do "battle" with the competition. All for profits, market share and the glory of the fight. If you believe a Corporation has no "soul" then you have not been exposed to many - for they all do. The question is can you recognize it? Most can . . . some can't.

05-30-2007, 03:01 AM	#67
samcan07 We're caught in a trap... Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 927	I was in a bit of a hurry with my post.(and my reading of yours) Just being a Sony fanboy here, this arragance bit that keeps getting posted (not specifiacally your post) is a wearing a bit thin. They provide a product and we have the choices to purchase or not. They usually deliver the goods quality wise.

05-30-2007, 09:47 AM	#68
SHOSHOSHO I'm High Def Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Buffalo Posts: 512	You guys are missing the point. Maybe its not arrogance or ego maybe it should be said that Sony has an agenda. Sony owns Sony Pictures. So it is Sony's best interests to try their damndest to prevent people from copying their movies. Making this guarantee to other film studios also entices them, but the bottom line is Sony is looking out for Sony. Sony spent more time on copyright protection than providing a good launch lineup. When Toshiba launched HD-DVD nearly everything from a consumer level was done perfectly. Does anybody seriously think that the BD code will remain secure. If I'm not mistaken it has already been cracked. Every move sony makes with blu ray will be with its own interests in mind. Toshiba does not own a film studio so it will be the consumer who will be in Toshiba's mind which had already been evidenced by their level of quality.

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