anyone catch the new Michael Moore movie sicko?

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete

I do live by the border, San Diego and I can't tell you how frustrating it is to see undocumented and well to do citizens of Mexico come here for free health care.

The fact hospitals are having to absorb the loss of funds by uninsured is the biggest problem.

Originally Posted by ah802

There's misconception about transferability of health... In Canada, if you are a visitor and get sick, you're expected to pay the bill. A U.S. visitor broke her arm after a fall on a bike (some sort of bicycle movement), the bill was $10,000; thankfully the bike club chipped in and the bill was paid. You need 'landed' status before the bill is picked up.... and landed means 'healthy immigration' status as confirmed in the application to become a citizen, you're not likely to pass immigration if you're sickly. On a side note: I have seen Canadian health cards for sale in U.S. classifieds.

Might be worth while to have dual citizenship... country of choice, marriage seems to be the ticket for some

Originally Posted by bboncorr

all im gonan say is see the movie. alot of what you stated was brought up in this movie. he also let americans living in those countries tell him what they have found in that system. alot of what you heard about waiting in other countries is just not true.

Originally Posted by Scoob

Specialized equipment? Sorry, but countries with socialized medicine do NOT have more specialized equipment. The competition in the US is what keeps our medical equipment cutting edge. In fact I have been doing a lot of reading about the european countries with socialized medicine. One of the problems, especially in the UK, is that the government doesn't update the equipment as often as they should. Often times, patients get diagnostic tests on outdated imaging machines. Also, if you look at those countries, two groupings of patients get the shaft. Cancer patients and heart patients. I apologize for not providing links, but I read stats on probably 40 different sites. When a woman gets breast cancer in the US, there is a 25% mortality rate. In the UK gets breast cancer, there is a 48% mortality rate. That is about double the death rate in the UK. The same goes with heart disease. In the UK mortality from heart attacks is 35% higher. You know why? They do far less angiograms to screen for coronary artery disease. Thats great you say, they saved a lot of money by doing less procedures right? Well sure, at the expense of many lives. Bottom line, they don't screen half as well, because the GOVERNMENT decides if you get a certain test or not. Moore talks about CEO's of health agencies here deciding people's fate. Well folks how would you like to put your life in the hands of the buracratic US government. One more point. My friends grandfather went to see Sicko. He is an immigrant from Cuba. He said it was laughable to see how they portrayed Cuban hospitals. He said the hospital the showed in Cuba was one for the government aristocrats and normal hospitals are a disgrace where patients get pathetic care. So go ahead, believe Mr. Hollywood Michael Moore and put your life in the hands of the US government.

Originally Posted by homerj

Becareful when Moore is giving a perspective about the Canadian health care system. You're getting only the good side. How would you feel if you were diagnosed with prostate cancer (it has happened to someone close to me) and told you would have to wait at least 3 months before treatment or have to wait 48 hrs in the emergency room before seeing the doc. My father waited 9 months for back surgery and around here it is nearly impossible to get a family doctor. They cant take anymore patients (overloaded). I think the waiting average these days for knee surgery is around 6 months. Don't forget one thing also, socialist: give half your paycheck to government and get taken care of by them in the worst of times but do you really think the government does a good job administration all of this money????? Yes i really really really give them half of my paycheck and that is a lot of money. So, all in all, nothing is perfect...

Originally Posted by rbinck

If you live and work in the US and are in the highest tax bracket you pay in excess of half of your income in Federal taxes. Add the tax rate to the 15+ % for social security and Medicare and then if you buy gasoline, use a telephone and many other places where there are Federal taxes and fees, you could easily be at 60%. Without socialized medicine.

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete

I have to agree with you on finding ways to lower health care costs.

I must disagree with the part about limiting malpractice.

Please, my friend, look at the history of this man, his practices and his group he runs with.

All of his decisions and efforts have been designed around power and money.

I want specific examples. Not any more of these Bush lied about this or that bullshit, because I get so tired about hearing that from people of certain political beliefs. Guliani divorced 3 times and didn't lie under oath about getting some sucky sucky from trailer trash. Bush's arguments were found to be based on intelligence that turned out to be not accurate or dated. That is all that can be proven as he made decisions based on the information that was available at the time. Would you rather support some dictator being in power who murdered likely over 600,000 people in an act of genocide? Could be ignore that Saddam HAD chemical weapons which was proven that HE DID use against the northern Kurds to punish them? I didn't want to get into politics but don't see a way around it. Do you really believe in that Global Warming BS? Did you know that many respectable scientists have found that this global warming phenonmenom occurred in a cyclical fashion many times even before humans walked the earth? Even if we stopped CO2 output completely right now, is there anything we really can do? I believe we are accelerating the process, but history has proven that there isn't much we can do when this process ocurred even before humans walked the earth. I was reading a book earlier today, and it was shown that the temperature and climate in medieval Europe even shifted up several degrees between 800-1300 AD, yet this was way before the industrial revolution. Bush won my respect when he took office and immediately backed us out of that horrible thing Clinton did with getting us involved in the Kyoto treaty which would have been economically disastrous. As for the environment, things are constantly getting better and are improving. Bush has tried certain ideas such as using a transferrable system of emission credits for firms which were at one point something supported by certain organizations only for them to be vehemently against it when Bush tried to propose it during his first term.

Who truly benefits from limited malpractice? You? What if some yahoo or facility kills you or your loved one?

Oh well, I suppose. A mechanic can screw up a car repair and you bring it back and try again. Or, you go to a different mechanic.

An accountant screw up, eh, we will survie.

A doctor screws up and people die.

Look at it like this, drug tests have been a deterrent for those who do drugs to stop or look for work elsewhere. It is the threat of penalty that forces change in behavior.

Take away potential penalties from someone in the event they kill or maim and you will take away safeguards. The life you save may be your own or your loved one.

Who really benefits from this foolish legislation? Well, of course. Big business and doctors. People who are already pretty well to do.

And you are entirely aware that malpractice insurance is seriously getting expensive? We have enough of a shortage of specialists right now as it is without thigns getting worse. Bush suggested a council that would evaluate the claims. You do know that there are LOTS of frivilous lawsuits in the medical industry right? I never said this was perfect, but it's something that can start reforming things.

Yup. Sounds like a brilliant idea huh? Your ability to protect yourself and be compensated in the event you are damaged and put money in the rich guys pocket.

Yeah. That's GW's way of doing business. Come on. Wake up for crying out loud.

It is not the little guy sueing the hospital or doctor that left in a surgical instrument in someone's belly that led to peritonitis, sepsis and death that is the problem.

It is not the guy that had the wrong leg amputated.

The problems are much more complex like pharmaceuticals, dwindling reimbursements from Medicare and Medicaid, uninsured patients.

Yeah. Uninsured patients. Who do you think absorbs that cost that runs into millions for hospitals and billions for the industry.

Let's see, you and me by rising prices to pick up the difference and that is passed on to insurance companies and so on and so on.

Think guys. Think. Put your partisan stuff on the shelf. Pay attention.

Shoot. You want to make one quick big difference? Bill Mexico for the cost of their citizens who are here illegally waiting to deliver babies and for others getting free healthcare.

That just ain't gonna happen. The fact is that we need these illegal immigrants if not now, definately in the future as future population trends look rather disturbing. Politicians will NEVER do anything but talk about this as they want a bigger tax base, as well as a bigger political base. We are already at replacement rate of fertility, and are likely to join both Europe and parts of Asia that already are having problems with negative population growth.

Isn't that nice.

PS: The state sponsored subsidized funding is done by local and state governments for the medically indigent. You have Medicaid for the poor and the subsidized care for those that have absolutely nothing. Yes. There is a difference.

No this. The reimbursement to hospitals for the care for these services is pennies on the dollar. Many providers refuse to accept this insurance because it is not worth their time.
Oftentimes, the patient will be turned away. Oh yeah, there are laws in the books. You can't turn away emergency services.

What about a broken wrist from the homeless guy that fell 3 days ago? The surgeon will just plain refuse. Think it dosn't happen? THink again.

Originally Posted by junehhan

Why is it that there are many regions like in Las Vegas where doctors and especially specialists are becoming rare? You may have heard of a crisis involving a severe shortage as noone wants to practice due to fear of lawsuits and extremely high insurance costs. Something needs to be done, and its a decision that cannot favor attorneys who literally chase ambulances. I believe Bush suggested a council being set up that would evaluate each case as well. It's not a perfect solution, but we need to start somewhere with something rather than sitting around and not doing anything because it isn't the perfect solution. Is it any wonder that the biggest contributor to the democratic party in 2004 was the national trial laywers association of america? No coincidence as these people don't want any talk about limits to what they could potentially make.





That's why we have Laws on the books to protect people. When something can be proven to be negligent, then obviously something needs to be done. You can't turn away emergency services legally, but there are severe economic factors here in America that won't adjust kindly to a socialized system. The fact is that we may need something in between, but still closer to the system we have today. Right now, I don't care about all of what you are talking about because it will NEVER happen unless we can first start reducing costs of health care.

Originally Posted by fmw

Really? I've never seen one of his films because I don't find political propaganda entertaining but the previews I saw looked amateurish. If you want to see a great documentary, see March of the Penguins. That is made by a talented documentary filmmaker. And, as a bonus, it is free of propaganda.

Originally Posted by junehhan

Why is it that there are many regions like in Las Vegas where doctors and especially specialists are becoming rare? You may have heard of a crisis involving a severe shortage as noone wants to practice due to fear of lawsuits and extremely high insurance costs. Something needs to be done, and its a decision that cannot favor attorneys who literally chase ambulances. I believe Bush suggested a council being set up that would evaluate each case as well. It's not a perfect solution, but we need to start somewhere with something rather than sitting around and not doing anything because it isn't the perfect solution. Is it any wonder that the biggest contributor to the democratic party in 2004 was the national trial laywers association of america? No coincidence as these people don't want any talk about limits to what they could potentially make.





That's why we have Laws on the books to protect people. When something can be proven to be negligent, then obviously something needs to be done. You can't turn away emergency services legally, but there are severe economic factors here in America that won't adjust kindly to a socialized system. The fact is that we may need something in between, but still closer to the system we have today. Right now, I don't care about all of what you are talking about because it will NEVER happen unless we can first start reducing costs of health care.

Originally Posted by ah802

Just published today, looks like it's a crusade for truth in entertainment and scalping CNN for being an entertaining business.

Common Dreams has it...

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/14/2521/

Here's the P.S. to get a taste

P.S. If you also want to apologize for not doing your job at the start of the Iraq War, I’m sure most Americans would be very happy to accept your apology. You and the other networks were willing partners with Bush, flying flags all over the TV screens and never asking the hard questions that you should have asked. You might have prevented a war. You might have saved the lives of those 3,610 soldiers who are no longer with us. Instead, you blew air kisses at a commander in chief who clearly was making it all up. Millions of us knew that — why didn’t you? I think you did. And, in my opinion, that makes you responsible for this war. Instead of doing the job the founding fathers wanted you to do — keeping those in power honest (that’s why they made it the FIRST amendment) — you and much of the media went on the attack against the few public figures like myself who dared to question the nightmare we were about to enter. You’ve never thanked me or the Dixie Chicks or Al Gore for doing your job for you. That’s OK. Just tell the truth from this point on.

Yours,
Michael Moore