anyone catch the new Michael Moore movie sicko?

bboncorr · 07-12-2007, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ah802

Well it's certainly cheaper than what you have now... A government run system allows for centralization of certain categories (cancer, aids or mental) and brings economies of scale, along with more productive uses of specialized equipment and manpower. Not to mention the fact that it's considered a non profit operation, but when you go to get your prescription filled... there's not much protection other than a 20 year old set of generic drugs.

For those who missed the wonderful CNN interview with Moore.. here's the jump.... ah, the internet is wonderful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpKoN...moore%2Ecom%2F

This is Micheal Moore ripping Wolf Blitzer
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/56446/
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/56566/
Michael Moore On CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta: "He's Not Telling the Truth" [VIDEO]
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/56569/

gotta love it. i dont even think that guy watched the movie or was just trying to setup moore to look like a lier for those who had not seen the film yet. Moore clearly admitts higher taxes will be needed and states it many times but this guy insisted Moore never mentions it in his movie. you gotta love how Moore used statistics from our own government (from 2007) and the guy still questions Moore's statistics.

just see the movie people its an eye opener.

Pistol Pete · 07-12-2007, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyTex

Enough Said

Duh.

Nah we thought they were robots.

Because we have the haves, have nots and the pay check to pay check guys.

Continue...

Did you think Medicare and Medicaid services are free?

Rosie?

I propose a concert.

^ That is every politician.

Check it out, I'm the new Michael Moore. That's what I think.

Now hit me with some "you're from Texas, you must love Bush" bs soundbites.

Thank you, sir, for your comments.

I don't care where you are from. You also, don't have to agree with me. That's ok.

The thing is, if you are going to be critical, do it fairly and objectively without a partisan spin.

If wrong is wrong say so. The "all politicians do it" is a cop out to cover up for the sins of a political cronies you support.

If a guy is a crook, liar, dishonest and corrupt he needs to be exposed and removed regardless of his political affiliation.

Were you outraged when Bill Clinton said I did not have sex with that women and felt he should be impeached?

If so.

Where is that outrage when Guiliani is divorced 3 times, Gingrich is having an affair, Bush fabricates a lie to go to war, outs a CIA operative and on and on and on?

Ignoring health care, environment, global warming and other issues because they are so called liberal causes is ridiculous, foolhearty and morally wrong.

The problems are real, effect all of us and we need strong leadership to have the courage to speak out and do something about it.

Of course, we can just say, "everything's fine folks" Better yet, "let them eat cake", Marie Antoinette.

ClashFan · 07-12-2007, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete

Thank you, sir, for your comments.

I don't care where you are from. You also, don't have to agree with me. That's ok.

The thing is, if you are going to be critical, do it fairly and objectively without a partisan spin.

If wrong is wrong say so. The "all politicians do it" is a cop out to cover up for the sins of a political cronies you support.

If a guy is a crook, liar, dishonest and corrupt he needs to be exposed and removed regardless of his political affiliation.

Were you outraged when Bill Clinton said I did not have sex with that women and felt he should be impeached?

If so.

Where is that outrage when Guiliani is divorced 3 times, Gingrich is having an affair, Bush fabricates a lie to go to war, outs a CIA operative and on and on and on?

Ignoring health care, environment, global warming and other issues because they are so called liberal causes is ridiculous, foolhearty and morally wrong.

The problems are real, effect all of us and we need strong leadership to have the courage to speak out and do something about it.

Of course, we can just say, "everything's fine folks" Better yet, "let them eat cake", Marie Antoinette.

Nice, well-reasoned post, but almost everyone's statements are colored by their ideology. Including me.

I've seem most of Moore's documentaries, and of course they are propaganda, as ALL documentaries are. I don't like some of his tactics, but I understand them, and he does make some good points.

I took an upper level persuasive writing course in college, and it was awesome. We read great persuasive works from the past, from the gamut of The Declaration of Independence to Nixon's Checkers speech to excerpts from Mein Kampf. The Michael Moores and Bill O'Reillys of the word are just tapping into a long tradition of propaganda.

I think it is good to question and doubt anyone and everyone.

Scoob · 07-12-2007, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ah802

. A government run system allows for centralization of certain categories (cancer, aids or mental) and brings economies of scale, along with more productive uses of specialized equipment and manpower.

Specialized equipment? Sorry, but countries with socialized medicine do NOT have more specialized equipment. The competition in the US is what keeps our medical equipment cutting edge. In fact I have been doing a lot of reading about the european countries with socialized medicine. One of the problems, especially in the UK, is that the government doesn't update the equipment as often as they should. Often times, patients get diagnostic tests on outdated imaging machines. Also, if you look at those countries, two groupings of patients get the shaft. Cancer patients and heart patients. I apologize for not providing links, but I read stats on probably 40 different sites. When a woman gets breast cancer in the US, there is a 25% mortality rate. In the UK gets breast cancer, there is a 48% mortality rate. That is about double the death rate in the UK. The same goes with heart disease. In the UK mortality from heart attacks is 35% higher. You know why? They do far less angiograms to screen for coronary artery disease. Thats great you say, they saved a lot of money by doing less procedures right? Well sure, at the expense of many lives. Bottom line, they don't screen half as well, because the GOVERNMENT decides if you get a certain test or not. Moore talks about CEO's of health agencies here deciding people's fate. Well folks how would you like to put your life in the hands of the buracratic US government. One more point. My friends grandfather went to see Sicko. He is an immigrant from Cuba. He said it was laughable to see how they portrayed Cuban hospitals. He said the hospital the showed in Cuba was one for the government aristocrats and normal hospitals are a disgrace where patients get pathetic care. So go ahead, believe Mr. Hollywood Michael Moore and put your life in the hands of the US government.

junehhan · 07-12-2007, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bboncorr

all im gonan say is see the movie. alot of what you stated was brought up in this movie. he also let americans living in those countries tell him what they have found in that system. alot of what you heard about waiting in other countries is just not true.

Those articles pulled up straight facts, and I actually printed and saved it from last year along with my econ related articles that I often print and keep in a folder for future reference. 2nd session of the summer quarter just started, and i'll root through and provide some hard numbers when I get settled and have some more free time.

Stew4HD · 07-12-2007, 08:10 PM

On the other hand, it's ok for those that cannot afford insurance and even those that have it to be denied care ? That is what is wrong here! Insurance companies control what care we get. Would be ok if your mother was denied care because some insurance person decided that whatever the ailment she has is not covered and she is turned away?

Pistol Pete · 07-12-2007, 08:11 PM

Nice posts everyone, lively and spirited without venom.

There are lots we can all agree with.

#1, a movie is not going to have all the answers or be totally accurate.

However, the important thing is bringing to light real life problems.

I have to think if you are reading this forum, you are fairly well educated, earn enough to have a computer and high tech equipment and most likely, have health insurance for you and your family.

You also have knowledge that there is Medicare for the aged and MediCaid for the poor.

So what's the problem? Plenty.

For many, probably millions of people, there is too little health care or no health care.

Sure. They may have a job. Not exactly enough to get a Mercedes or even a new Mustang. Just enough to make ends meet. God forbid, something catastrophic.

A visit to the hospital can costs thousands. For those who earn too much to qualify for MediCaid, that is a stifling albatross around one's neck that cannot be removed.

Know this. Hospitals will prearrange contracts with insurance carriers to cover their beneficiaries. These contracts allow for reduced rates in the cost of doing business.

Someone with no insurance has no such benefit. He pays the entire amount.

Let me put it simply. Let's say your hospitalization for an appendectomy is $10,000. Your insurance carrier will work out a deal and pay $5,000 for that appendectomy.

The guy with no insurance must pay the full amount.

Too bad you say? No sir. No. Where is your moral conscience? Or is gay marriage more important to you?

Like many of you, I don't think the government should run the health care system for everyone. The IRS and the Bush administration is bad enough let alone letting someone just as intelligent and competent to run something that complex.

No. There are answers out there we can all agree on. Someone has to have the courage, know how and skill to present it in a way that is logical and easy to understand and has a reasonable expectation to work.

Something like, this. Keep your Blue Cross if you have it, Meidicare and Medicaid.

Let's create a third option, a program somewhere in the middle of those two that employers can afford to ensure their staff who at the moment cannot and that individuals can purchase at an affordable rate.

There are things we can do. We need to think out of the box and work together to solve them.

It is not a right or left issue. It is an American problem, yours and mine.

junehhan · 07-12-2007, 08:38 PM

Before we talk about something like you are suggesting, we need to first find ways to lower and control healthcare costs that are quickly becoming astronomical. If we do not do this first, then the costs of providing such a service will either require a massive tax hike which would kill an economy that is already getting hit hard by foreign countries doing what we used to specialize in at a fraction of the price, or it will not be effective. The Bush administration did try to put a cap on malpractice suits which are a start and at least acknowledges one of the many causes of high health care costs. Unfortunately, Congress continues to have their fucking thumbs stuck up their asses and still are more interested in bitching, blaming, and bickering rather than solving real issues. Maybe this is because a lot of them are lawyers, but this is starting to get rediculous as its sending a message to other developing worlds that maybe a democracy might cause more problems than solve.

My understanding is that there are also state sponsored subsidies that help some people afford some type of subsidized health insurance. Someone else will have to elaborate on this.

Pistol Pete · 07-12-2007, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by junehhan

Before we talk about something like you are suggesting, we need to first find ways to lower and control healthcare costs that are quickly becoming astronomical. If we do not do this first, then the costs of providing such a service will either require a massive tax hike which would kill an economy that is already getting hit hard by foreign countries doing what we used to specialize in at a fraction of the price, or it will not be effective. The Bush administration did try to put a cap on malpractice suits which are a start and at least acknowledges one of the many causes of high health care costs. Unfortunately, Congress continues to have their fucking thumbs stuck up their asses and still are more interested in bitching, blaming, and bickering rather than solving real issues. Maybe this is because a lot of them are lawyers, but this is starting to get rediculous as its sending a message to other developing worlds that maybe a democracy might cause more problems than solve.

My understanding is that there are also state sponsored subsidies that help some people afford some type of subsidized health insurance. Someone else will have to elaborate on this.

I have to agree with you on finding ways to lower health care costs.

I must disagree with the part about limiting malpractice.

Please, my friend, look at the history of this man, his practices and his group he runs with.

All of his decisions and efforts have been designed around power and money.

Who truly benefits from limited malpractice? You? What if some yahoo or facility kills you or your loved one?

Oh well, I suppose. A mechanic can screw up a car repair and you bring it back and try again. Or, you go to a different mechanic.

An accountant screw up, eh, we will survie.

A doctor screws up and people die.

Look at it like this, drug tests have been a deterrent for those who do drugs to stop or look for work elsewhere. It is the threat of penalty that forces change in behavior.

Take away potential penalties from someone in the event they kill or maim and you will take away safeguards. The life you save may be your own or your loved one.

Who really benefits from this foolish legislation? Well, of course. Big business and doctors. People who are already pretty well to do.

Yup. Sounds like a brilliant idea huh? Your ability to protect yourself and be compensated in the event you are damaged and put money in the rich guys pocket.

Yeah. That's GW's way of doing business. Come on. Wake up for crying out loud.

It is not the little guy sueing the hospital or doctor that left in a surgical instrument in someone's belly that led to peritonitis, sepsis and death that is the problem.

It is not the guy that had the wrong leg amputated.

The problems are much more complex like pharmaceuticals, dwindling reimbursements from Medicare and Medicaid, uninsured patients.

Yeah. Uninsured patients. Who do you think absorbs that cost that runs into millions for hospitals and billions for the industry.

Let's see, you and me by rising prices to pick up the difference and that is passed on to insurance companies and so on and so on.

Think guys. Think. Put your partisan stuff on the shelf. Pay attention.

Shoot. You want to make one quick big difference? Bill Mexico for the cost of their citizens who are here illegally waiting to deliver babies and for others getting free healthcare.

Isn't that nice.

PS: The state sponsored subsidized funding is done by local and state governments for the medically indigent. You have Medicaid for the poor and the subsidized care for those that have absolutely nothing. Yes. There is a difference.

No this. The reimbursement to hospitals for the care for these services is pennies on the dollar. Many providers refuse to accept this insurance because it is not worth their time.
Oftentimes, the patient will be turned away. Oh yeah, there are laws in the books. You can't turn away emergency services.

What about a broken wrist from the homeless guy that fell 3 days ago? The surgeon will just plain refuse. Think it dosn't happen? THink again.

JohnnyTex · 07-13-2007, 03:26 AM

First of all Pistol Pete, I apologize for my sarcastic and satirical response to your post previously. I would have responded earlier, but I have two jobs, both of which make me happy and allow me to afford private health care.

I'm just tired of every web site I frequent getting bogged down by this type of hackneyed and never ending psuedo intellectual debate, and that being said I must add to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistol Pete

I must disagree with the part about limiting malpractice.
Who truly benefits from limited malpractice? You? What if some yahoo or facility kills you or your loved one?
Oh well, I suppose. A mechanic can screw up a car repair and you bring it back and try again. Or, you go to a different mechanic.
An accountant screw up, eh, we will survie.
A doctor screws up and people die.

I'm assuming you don't live close to the border, where there are those who take advantage of the system, find a small flaw in their care, sue, take millions and head back south. It happens, and I could site examples, but those pesky Hipaa laws exist. This site is somewhat where we are, but you won't understand why we are there. http://sanantonio.injuryboard.com/medical-malpractice/

Pete, politicians stopped serving the people decades+ ago. These days we have businessmen disguised as politicians and politicians disguised as you and I (US). Politics became a business and when that happened it raised the volume of the voice, and lowered the presence of the vocal. We can debate about how we all need health care, but in the end the poor with always have it "free" the rich won't see the diffrence, and the increasing middle will burden the toil, respectively. To put it simply; all men need food, but we all pay the same price at the market.

The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
Theodore Roosevelt

borromini · 07-13-2007, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFC5

...He twists things and only shows what he wants you to see to reach HIS conclusion...

One could argue that's how all politicians do things...Bush Administration included.

homerj · 07-13-2007, 04:41 AM

Becareful when Moore is giving a perspective about the Canadian health care system. You're getting only the good side. How would you feel if you were diagnosed with prostate cancer (it has happened to someone close to me) and told you would have to wait at least 3 months before treatment or have to wait 48 hrs in the emergency room before seeing the doc. My father waited 9 months for back surgery and around here it is nearly impossible to get a family doctor. They cant take anymore patients (overloaded). I think the waiting average these days for kney surgery is around 6 months. Dont forget one thing also, socialist: give half your paycheck to governemnt and get taken care of by them in the worst of times but do you really think the government does a good job admnistrating all of this money????? Yes i really really really give them half of my paycheck and that is a lot of money. So, all in all, nothing is perfect...

fmw · 07-13-2007, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick-F

Michael Moore is a talented documentry filmmaker-- but first, and foremost he is is a propagandist. .

Really? I've never seen one of his films because I don't find political propaganda entertaining but the previews I saw looked amateurish. If you want to see a great documentary, see March of the Penguins. That is made by a talented documentary filmmaker. And, as a bonus, it is free of propaganda.

fmw · 07-13-2007, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bboncorr

what if i said you guys can see it for free? would you guys then give it atleast 15 minutes? like i said im not a Moore fan at all but this movie is great.

No, thanks. I don't find political propaganda entertaining.

Pistol Pete · 07-13-2007, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyTex

First of all Pistol Pete, I apologize for my sarcastic and satirical response to your post previously. I would have responded earlier, but I have two jobs, both of which make me happy and allow me to afford private health care.

I'm just tired of every web site I frequent getting bogged down by this type of hackneyed and never ending psuedo intellectual debate, and that being said I must add to it.

I'm assuming you don't live close to the border, where there are those who take advantage of the system, find a small flaw in their care, sue, take millions and head back south. It happens, and I could site examples, but those pesky Hipaa laws exist. This site is somewhat where we are, but you won't understand why we are there. http://sanantonio.injuryboard.com/medical-malpractice/

Pete, politicians stopped serving the people decades+ ago. These days we have businessmen disguised as politicians and politicians disguised as you and I (US). Politics became a business and when that happened it raised the volume of the voice, and lowered the presence of the vocal. We can debate about how we all need health care, but in the end the poor with always have it "free" the rich won't see the diffrence, and the increasing middle will burden the toil, respectively. To put it simply; all men need food, but we all pay the same price at the market.

The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
Theodore Roosevelt

Great post Tex!

I can't disagre with anything you said. Well done.

I do live by the border, San Diego and I can't tell you how frustrating it is to see undocumented and well to do citizens of Mexico come here for free health care.

Looks like you may work in health care to understand HIPAA. I do too.

I still stand by my earlier statements though on lowering costs and malpractice suits.

The fact hospitals are having to absorb the loss of funds by uninsured is the biggest problem.

Somehow, someway, we need to work together for a workable solution.

I think we can get it done. We need the right kind of leadership though.

07-12-2007, 08:10 PM	#36
Stew4HD High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 9,068	On the other hand, it's ok for those that cannot afford insurance and even those that have it to be denied care ? That is what is wrong here! Insurance companies control what care we get. Would be ok if your mother was denied care because some insurance person decided that whatever the ailment she has is not covered and she is turned away? __________________ ___________________________________

07-12-2007, 08:38 PM	#38
junehhan High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: Aug 2006 Age: 29 Posts: 5,663	Before we talk about something like you are suggesting, we need to first find ways to lower and control healthcare costs that are quickly becoming astronomical. If we do not do this first, then the costs of providing such a service will either require a massive tax hike which would kill an economy that is already getting hit hard by foreign countries doing what we used to specialize in at a fraction of the price, or it will not be effective. The Bush administration did try to put a cap on malpractice suits which are a start and at least acknowledges one of the many causes of high health care costs. Unfortunately, Congress continues to have their fucking thumbs stuck up their asses and still are more interested in bitching, blaming, and bickering rather than solving real issues. Maybe this is because a lot of them are lawyers, but this is starting to get rediculous as its sending a message to other developing worlds that maybe a democracy might cause more problems than solve. My understanding is that there are also state sponsored subsidies that help some people afford some type of subsidized health insurance. Someone else will have to elaborate on this. __________________ X360 Gamertag junehhan Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player -Klipsch RSW10 Subwoofer -Pioneer VSX1016TXVK reciever -Klipsch Synergy Quintet III 5 channel speakers AIM: jhhan80 HD-DVD's: Loving it! BD's: When we get a reasonably priced BDP with lossless decoders Everyone wants to live at the expense of the state, they forget that the state lives at the expense of everyone - Frederich Bastiat, 1848

07-13-2007, 04:41 AM	#42
homerj High Definition is the definition of life. Join Date: May 2007 Location: Québec, Canada Posts: 38	Becareful when Moore is giving a perspective about the Canadian health care system. You're getting only the good side. How would you feel if you were diagnosed with prostate cancer (it has happened to someone close to me) and told you would have to wait at least 3 months before treatment or have to wait 48 hrs in the emergency room before seeing the doc. My father waited 9 months for back surgery and around here it is nearly impossible to get a family doctor. They cant take anymore patients (overloaded). I think the waiting average these days for kney surgery is around 6 months. Dont forget one thing also, socialist: give half your paycheck to governemnt and get taken care of by them in the worst of times but do you really think the government does a good job admnistrating all of this money????? Yes i really really really give them half of my paycheck and that is a lot of money. So, all in all, nothing is perfect... __________________ LG 50PC5D Yamaha rxv-1700 PSB speakers Toshiba hd-a1 Harmony 680 remote

Similar Threads to anyone catch the new Michael Moore movie sicko?
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Backdoor in both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discovered	ah802	High Definition News & Informative Articles	8	08-03-2006 10:31 PM
Home Theater -vs- Movie Theater	LordGamer	The High Definition Lounge	17	12-24-2005 01:06 PM

07-12-2007, 08:11 PM	#37
Pistol Pete HD GUY Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 285	Nice posts everyone, lively and spirited without venom. There are lots we can all agree with. #1, a movie is not going to have all the answers or be totally accurate. However, the important thing is bringing to light real life problems. I have to think if you are reading this forum, you are fairly well educated, earn enough to have a computer and high tech equipment and most likely, have health insurance for you and your family. You also have knowledge that there is Medicare for the aged and MediCaid for the poor. So what's the problem? Plenty. For many, probably millions of people, there is too little health care or no health care. Sure. They may have a job. Not exactly enough to get a Mercedes or even a new Mustang. Just enough to make ends meet. God forbid, something catastrophic. A visit to the hospital can costs thousands. For those who earn too much to qualify for MediCaid, that is a stifling albatross around one's neck that cannot be removed. Know this. Hospitals will prearrange contracts with insurance carriers to cover their beneficiaries. These contracts allow for reduced rates in the cost of doing business. Someone with no insurance has no such benefit. He pays the entire amount. Let me put it simply. Let's say your hospitalization for an appendectomy is $10,000. Your insurance carrier will work out a deal and pay $5,000 for that appendectomy. The guy with no insurance must pay the full amount. Too bad you say? No sir. No. Where is your moral conscience? Or is gay marriage more important to you? Like many of you, I don't think the government should run the health care system for everyone. The IRS and the Bush administration is bad enough let alone letting someone just as intelligent and competent to run something that complex. No. There are answers out there we can all agree on. Someone has to have the courage, know how and skill to present it in a way that is logical and easy to understand and has a reasonable expectation to work. Something like, this. Keep your Blue Cross if you have it, Meidicare and Medicaid. Let's create a third option, a program somewhere in the middle of those two that employers can afford to ensure their staff who at the moment cannot and that individuals can purchase at an affordable rate. There are things we can do. We need to think out of the box and work together to solve them. It is not a right or left issue. It is an American problem, yours and mine.