Letters from Iwo Jima (HD DVD) Review

edders · 12-04-2007, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefJoseph

In singular accounts, yes. The historical accounts aren't going back and forth, they are unanimous. I suppose by that you don't believe the historical accounts of holocaust either? I'm sure clints working on his next project. The humane nazis at Auschwitz. I'm sure their perspective is just as valuable as the American liberators.

Who said anything about not believing ANY accounts. And how did you manage to get the holocaust into this? Think you reacted to my post without thinking.

ChiefJoseph · 12-04-2007, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voyeur

Humanity-driven? I'm saying there was humanity within the culture and to dismiss them as cartoon characters is naive. I shouldn't have to "enlighten" you to the idea that any culture would have some humanity. I'm not "trying very hard" to prove anything. It's common sense.

Recognizing that there are other cultures that do not recognize or share our beliefs or values is not dismissing them as "cartoon characters". It's recognizing that not everyone believes in the liberalized western concept of humanity. If they were never exposed to it, or held in any kind of societal regard, then why would they just "have it", all of the sudden. To assume that every civilization in history had some form of our concept of humanity is not common sense.

ChiefJoseph · 12-04-2007, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustEd

Who said anything about not believing ANY accounts. And how did you manage to get the holocaust into this? Think you reacted to my post without thinking.

Sorry, I read into it as an idea that it's just as plausible to believe accounts that refute japanese brutality as it is to believe accounts that prove it. Personally, I have not seen any accounts refuting their brutality. Sorry if I misunderstood your post. The holocaust was occurring at the same time as the japanese crimes by their axis friends. In my opinion, the slipper slope. If you can humanize the japanese in WWII, you might as well humanize the nazis in the death camps. Hence the "letter's from Auschwitz" concept. My only point is, this movie is entertainment to get your dollars and not a factual account of history.

Voyeur · 12-04-2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefJoseph

Recognizing that there are other cultures that do not recognize or share our beliefs or values is not dismissing them as "cartoon characters". It's recognizing that not everyone believes in the liberalized western concept of humanity. If they were never exposed to it, or held in any kind of societal regard, then why would they just "have it", all of the sudden. To assume that every civilization in history had some form of our concept of humanity is not common sense.

Ah, now that's more to the point. I don't assume every civilization has "our" form of humanity. But humanity did exist among the Japanese. Hence the actual letters written to their loved ones. I don't think anyone here "refutes" their brutality, that is a certainty. But I don't think it is a bad thing to illustrate the other side during the Iwo Jima conflict.

After all, I don't believe any of us viewed Letters from Iwo Jima and started rooting for the Japanese to win.

edders · 12-04-2007, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefJoseph

Sorry, I read into it as an idea that it's just as plausible to believe accounts that refute japanese brutality as it is to believe accounts that prove it. Personally, I have not seen any accounts refuting their brutality. Sorry if I misunderstood your post. The holocaust was occurring at the same time as the japanese crimes by their axis friends. In my opinion, the slipper slope. If you can humanize the japanese in WWII, you might as well humanize the nazis in the death camps. Hence the "letter's from Auschwitz" concept. My only point is, this movie is entertainment to get your dollars and not a factual account of history.

Agreed, the overwhelming testimony is to the Japanese's brutality and insensitivity towards western culture. Nazi's and the SS were brutal also. The regular German soldier was not unlike our G.I.'s just on the wrong side (my opinion).

Ed

ChiefJoseph · 12-06-2007, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voyeur

Ah, now that's more to the point. I don't assume every civilization has "our" form of humanity. But humanity did exist among the Japanese. Hence the actual letters written to their loved ones. I don't think anyone here "refutes" their brutality, that is a certainty. But I don't think it is a bad thing to illustrate the other side during the Iwo Jima conflict.

After all, I don't believe any of us viewed Letters from Iwo Jima and started rooting for the Japanese to win.

I have attempted to find these so called letters to loved ones and have been unsuccessful. I have found some letters written by General Tadamichi Kuribayashi that were mailed to his wife and were actually quite non emotional, considering he planned on dieing. These so called "letters" is nothing more than eastwoods propaganda. If you can find real sources of the letters I would like to read them, it looks like they never existed at all. I did find a review from an actual Bataan Death March survivor, and this is what he felt of eastwoods "true" perspective.

Keep this in mind if you go to see "Letters from Iwo Jima."
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:02:25 -0800

I had the great privilege of personally conducting a digital video interview of Dr Lester Tenney, who at the beginning of WWII, was a member of the National Guard, as a Private in a tank unit in the Philippines.. and shortly thereafter fought the Japanese Imperial Army during the American and Filipino retreat into Bataan, and the surrender at Bataan.

The Death March to Camp San Fernando and later transported to Japan aboard slave ships and served Japanese corporations as a POW slave laborer in the coal mines of Japan near Hiroshima. His comments below are constrained compared to interviews I have conducted with Filipino and American POWs of the same era and area of the Pacific campaigns of WWII.

Ralph Roy Ramirez
LTC (CA) Retired

------

For those Forum Members who expressed an opinion on the movie Letters from Iwo Jima, please allow me to share how I re-acted to this film. For lack of a better way to begin, let me say, What "Nice Guys" the Japanese Soldiers Were.

It was obvious to me that the Japanese soldiers who fought the Americans on Iwo Jima were not the same soldiers who fought the Americans on Bataan, or were they?

As a survivor of the Bataan Death March, I can tell you for certainty, the Japanese depicted in "Letters From Iwo Jima" were in no way similar to the soldiers I encountered on the Bataan Death March. So what does that prove? Well, unless you truly believe that the Japanese soldiers fighting in the Philippines earlier in the war, were different than the soldiers on Iwo Jima, then you must come to the conclusion that the director, Clint Eastwood, was overcome by Japanese propaganda. Eastwood tried to "humanize" the Japanese soldier, and wanted to have the audience see the Japanese as nice guys fighting a war they didn't want to fight, in a place they didn't want to be.

The film "Letters From Iwo Jima," has been nominated for an Academy Award, which it may richly deserve for the quality of its acting, but the fact remains that as a historical movie, it's a failure, it instead tries to show the enemy as the nice guys in the war and "so much like we Americans."

Critics have praised the film because it "humanized" the enemy, but was it their humanity that caused the Japanese soldiers on Bataan to shoot and behead those men who were unable to keep up with the rest of the men on the Bataan March? The same Japanese soldiers, who fought on Iwo Jima and were depicted as being nice guys, were notoriously cruel and savage to prisoners of war. On the Bataan Death March, if you didn't walk fast enough or didn't bow low enough you were singled out and tortured, beaten and killed, all at the whim of the Japanese soldier, a private, a corporal, a sergeant or an officer.

Out of 12,000 American soldiers and more than 36,000 Filipino soldiers on the march, less than half of them returned home. In addition to thousands that died on the March, thousands more died due to brutal barbaric treatment while in POW camps, unarmed and without any means of defense, were tortured and put to death.

This is a film where Clint Eastwood wants to portray Japanese soldiers as being, "just like the rest of us": Sensitive, caring and concerned for our fellow man. Don't you believe it! Japanese soldiers, who were medical officers, carried out biological experiments on prisoners of war. The opening scene in "The Great Raid" movie showing Japanese soldiers burning American POWs alive is not fiction. It is reality.

The record of atrocities inflicted by Japanese soldiers on American and Filipino civilians is numbered in the thousands. In Manila alone, as the war was winding down and the Japanese knew the end was near, they slaughtered more than 100,000 men, women and children.

The brilliant book "The Rape of Nanking" written by the late Iris Chang, chronicles the appalling savagery of the Japanese army during the 1930s. Ms. Chang uncovered the history of more than 360,000 Chinese men, women and children who were massacred by Japanese soldiers; some were, no doubt, the same "nice guys" on Iwo Jima.

It was Japan who attacked the United States: It was Japanese soldiers who savagely killed thousands of unarmed POWs, it was Japanese soldiers who placed POWs into bomb shelters and set them on fire so that no one could escape: it was Japanese soldiers who refused the offer of surrender when made, while knowing that to continue fighting meant death to hundreds of thousands of their own people.

There were one or two nice guys, but that's about all. Yet the main thrust of the film was "The Japanese soldier is similar to the American soldier." I personally knew of no "nice guy" within the enemy soldiers, and I offer this information as fact, not fiction. But the director, Clint Eastwood, along with the Japanese would want you to believe it was "fact".

The above is my reaction to the film, sorry if I hurt some Forum members feelings.

Lester Tenney, Ph.D.
Professor Emeritus Arizona State University
Former POW and survivor of the Bataan Death March

edders · 12-06-2007, 09:19 AM

Glad you survived to tell the story!

Ed in Sacramento

unotis · 12-06-2007, 09:50 AM

Excellent dose of reality and truth, as long as we remember the movie is fiction and just that, I have no problem with the portrayal of the Japanese in the movie.

It is just an entertaiment not a history lesson.

ChiefJoseph · 12-06-2007, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustEd

Glad you survived to tell the story!

Ed in Sacramento

That's not me, I found it while trying to find these supposed REAL letters from Iwo Jima. Which looks like hollywood drama and not historical fact.

Voyeur · 12-06-2007, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefJoseph

I have attempted to find these so called letters to loved ones and have been unsuccessful. I have found some letters written by General Tadamichi Kuribayashi that were mailed to his wife and were actually quite non emotional, considering he planned on dieing. These so called "letters" is nothing more than eastwoods propaganda. If you can find real sources of the letters I would like to read them, it looks like they never existed at all.

Well, maybe those exact letters didn't exist but others did. This article is interesting:

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbc...0339/-1/NEWS35

Hopefully we'll get to see some translated versions. Keeping in mind that the emotions displayed by Japanese men are traditionally considered different from American men, I'm sure they will seem just as "unemotional" to you as Kuribayashi. Doesn't make them lack humanity. In fact, Eastwood seems to detect Kuribayashi's humanity from this quote:

Quote:

''When you read Kuribayashi's letters, you see a caring father, worrying about his kids' education, telling them anecdotes about Boston and Harvard in the late '20s and early '30s, and you see he's like every other father,'' Eastwood told the Los Angeles Times.

Maybe he was reading different letters. Or maybe you read only what you want to.

ChiefJoseph · 12-07-2007, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voyeur

Well, maybe those exact letters didn't exist but others did. This article is interesting:

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbc...0339/-1/NEWS35

Hopefully we'll get to see some translated versions. Keeping in mind that the emotions displayed by Japanese men are traditionally considered different from American men, I'm sure they will seem just as "unemotional" to you as Kuribayashi. Doesn't make them lack humanity. In fact, Eastwood seems to detect Kuribayashi's humanity from this quote:

Maybe he was reading different letters. Or maybe you read only what you want to.

WOW. First you say the "actual letters" showed their humanity, then admit there were no "actual letters" at all, but hey there were others, not translated of course, but hey, who needs proof anyway. Oh, and they were just like us, except their writings don't show any emotion, because they weren't just like us. clint made a movie about fictitious letters, and fictitious humanity so that is all that's necessary, case closed, they were humane. Since when did writing a letter to your loved ones denote humanity in the first place. I always thought treatment of civilians and POW's as well as other helpless people was the measure of humanity, not a letter to mom. And still there are no letters as of yet, roughly 10 months after the release of the movie. If there were "actual letters", don't you think someone one would have released them by now? Unless they say things they don't want us to see, like the truth of their lack of humanity. eastwood was like you, he could see humanity because that's all he allowed himself to see.

And I did find that article the first time. Since all this was happening AFTER the movie it really has no meaning to this argument, that's why I didn't post it. Plus that was 10 months ago, funny nobody has heard anything else about them since.

Voyeur · 12-07-2007, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefJoseph

WOW. First you say the "actual letters" showed their humanity, then admit there were no "actual letters" at all, but hey there were others, not translated of course, but hey, who needs proof anyway. Oh, and they were just like us, except their writings don't show any emotion, because they weren't just like us. clint made a movie about fictitious letters, and fictitious humanity so that is all that's necessary, case closed, they were humane. Since when did writing a letter to your loved ones denote humanity in the first place. I always thought treatment of civilians and POW's as well as other helpless people was the measure of humanity, not a letter to mom. And still there are no letters as of yet, roughly 10 months after the release of the movie. If there were "actual letters", don't you think someone one would have released them by now? Unless they say things they don't want us to see, like the truth of their lack of humanity. eastwood was like you, he could see humanity because that's all he allowed himself to see.

And I did find that article the first time. Since all this was happening AFTER the movie it really has no meaning to this argument, that's why I didn't post it. Plus that was 10 months ago, funny nobody has heard anything else about them since.

First, I didn't admit shit. I have no ideas if those VERY letters existed or not. Apparently they were at the very least inspired by Kuribayashi's letters. I remind you there there were ACTUALLY some letters because you seem to be of the mind the Japanese aren't sentimental enough to even send letters and postcards. And now you ask since when do letters denote humanity? Well that is pretty much the major plot point of the film.

And what exactly are you suggesting? That these men would never have shown sympathy toward there own soldiers? They would never have any doubts about war? Their letters and postcards would never show any sentiments toward their family? I've got news for you, these are characteristic of any society.

You don't want to believe it. It's easier for you not to. And most of all you resent the idea that someone would dare show the enemy in any other light than that of inhumane monsters. Well, you don't have to watch, do you? Let the grown ups watch.

ChiefJoseph · 12-07-2007, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voyeur

First, I didn't admit shit. I have no ideas if those VERY letters existed or not. Apparently they were at the very least inspired by Kuribayashi's letters. I remind you there there were ACTUALLY some letters because you seem to be of the mind the Japanese aren't sentimental enough to even send letters and postcards. And now you ask since when do letters denote humanity? Well that is pretty much the major plot point of the film.

And what exactly are you suggesting? That these men would never have shown sympathy toward there own soldiers? They would never have any doubts about war? Their letters and postcards would never show any sentiments toward their family? I've got news for you, these are characteristic of any society.

You don't want to believe it. It's easier for you not to. And most of all you resent the idea that someone would dare show the enemy in any other light than that of inhumane monsters. Well, you don't have to watch, do you? Let the grown ups watch.

The things you attribute to humanity are not humanity. sympathy toward your own soldiers is not humanity. And they obviously didn't have too much sympathy for each other considering the kamikaze's. And doubts about the war when your losing and about to die is not the same as having doubts before you ever joined and tortured with delight, which is also not a sign of humanity, just a sign of self pity. I have no pity for any japanes soldiers in WWII. Humanity is a benevolent attitude and ACTION towards your fellow man, not just your fellow race specific soldier. It's not easier for me, it's the evidence of history. History is ripe with inhumanity, it's only in modern times that true humanity has come about. With no letters, the entire "true" premise of this movie is in fact false. The movie is dramatic fiction and should be taken as such. I watched Flags of Our Fathers and enjoyed it very much. I will not watch this obvious ploy to attempt to rewrite and muddy the truth of the japanese inhumanity during WWII and before. I have evidence of history on my side, you have a fiction hollywood movie and your belief on yours.

RickB1 · 12-07-2007, 12:57 PM

These are the same soldiers who forced Japanese civilians to jump off cliffs in Okinawa, rather than allow them to surrender. Their culture was very, very different than ours, Letters From Iwo Jima notwithstanding.

Voyeur · 12-08-2007, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefJoseph

I will not watch this obvious ploy to attempt to rewrite and muddy the truth of the japanese inhumanity during WWII and before. I have evidence of history on my side, you have a fiction hollywood movie and your belief on yours.

You didn't even see the film? Then I've been wasting my time. All these things you criticize as not being characteristic of "humanity" are in fact depicted in the film.

I'm just going to leave you with this final thought ChiefJoseph:

Who do you think has done more research on the events that took place on Iwo Jima?

The writers and filmakers behind Letters from Iwo Jima?

Or you?

Enough said.

12-06-2007, 09:19 AM	#37
edders Ever Eddy Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,455	Here to tell the story Glad you survived to tell the story! Ed in Sacramento

12-06-2007, 09:50 AM	#38
unotis UNOTIS Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: FLORIDA Age: 54 Posts: 3,383	Excellent dose of reality and truth, as long as we remember the movie is fiction and just that, I have no problem with the portrayal of the Japanese in the movie. It is just an entertaiment not a history lesson. __________________ Harman/Kardon TC30 universal remote Martin Logan Odyssey speakers Martin Logan Center Channel speaker Velodyne DPS-12 Powered Subwoofer B&W rear speakers Toshiba XA1, XA2, A2 HD DVD players Panasonic BD60K Panasonic TH-42PZ700U 1080p plasma Panasonic 34" Tau CT-34WX50 widescreen HD-ready CRT Vizio 32 Inch 1080p LCD Monster Power Center Motorola Dual Tuner DVR/ HDTV capable Officially PURPLE HD DVDs = 105 Blu-Ray Discs = 45 with 5 on the way

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